Fox - Chapter 11 + interlude - kais 05/21/18, 3094 words (V)

[kais]

Looking mostly for pacing-is it moving well, and age—is S believable as sheltered 17. I’m hoping the moving around of chapters makes Sam’s introduction more intuitive now.

Please abbreviate all proper nouns. Thank you!

[Mandamon]

Pacing is good here, and I think this is one of the most connected interludes so far. Sam has a much better intro, and makes it a lot easier to connect the clues.

I think S is still believable. However, with this interlude, now I'm wondering about Sam's age. I assume a year or so older, since S doesn't recognize him or remember him being born. This means he's 15-16, which sort off strains S calling him "boy" rather than "young man" especially in comparison to a 5 year old girl. 

Notes while reading:

pg 2: "or in this case, a boy"
--Did anyone actually assume that yet?

pg 2: "“You’re a boy. A boy can’t be an heir"
--ok, now Sam does. Maybe an editing artifact?

pg 3, first paragraph: This is a good explanation and starts to get to S's motivations.

pg 3: "She’d probably already spoken to the guilders"
--didn't we find out last chapter that there weren't any guilders in the city? Or is that WRS?

pg 4: "I ran directly into the spirit house"
--this is a small house, correct? Might be good to have a quick size tag.

pg 4: "man almost my exact height, with the same loose black curls falling into his eyes"
--yes, this connects a lot better now.

pg 4: "Each tiny shingle "
--yep, need a note on size above.

pg 6: "as I tried to remember where I had met this man before"
--this is coming across as sort of a disconnect now, since we just read the interlude. Was S beaten up so much that S doesn't remember the interlude? If so, then need to state that.
--ok, S remembers a few paragraphs later, but it still reads a little weird.

pg 8: "stirred another amorphous memory—so hazy I couldn’t quite pin it down."
--is this coming into play later? I don't remember anything about it before. (Edit--we didn't get anything about this by the end of the chapter, but I think there was another reference to the smell, so now I'm confused about it.)

pg 8: S's recognition reads well this time. I'm probably not a good test subject since I've read this so much, but the revelation seems surprising and inevitable to me.

pg 9: "I couldn’t hear anything, except the faint sound of a chair scraping across the floor."
--(With a priori knowledge) I like this setup better...

pg 10: "But I wasn’t afraid, right? It was just a witch."
--this again. I'm still not sure what to think. We've been shown that witches are dangerous, already.

pg 11: "Missing a head seemed unnecessary. "
--yeeesss...which makes me wonder why it's happening.

pg 12: Good last sentence!

[Asmodemon]

I also liked the pacing of the chapter just fine, and I also believe that S. is really sheltered. What I didn’t quite believe is that only three years have gone by between the interlude where S. was beaten up by Sam, and the present where neither of them recognizes the other. It’s not like this encounter didn’t leave an impression on either of them, Sam’s hate and anger are strong, and you don’t forget such a heavy beating or the one who did it to you.

 

Interlude: After reading the chapter that comes after Sam’s hostility towards S. makes sense, but while reading the anger Sam had towards S. felt like it came out of nowhere and that was a little surprising.

It also reads as a little convenient that we get an interlude showing Sam and S.’s past together just before the chapter where he’s introduced as an adult.

 

Age confusion: At first I thought that Sam had to be around five years old, because he’s referred to as ‘the boy’ just after someone who’s referred to as ‘the girl’ was said to be five years old, and the entire group S. is with is described as ‘children’. Now, since the POV comes from S., and S. is fourteen, the fact that S. thinks of them all as children would make them a few years younger than S., at least in my mind, so ranging between 5 and 10 at the most. So when S. is beat up by one of the kids that surprised me, since S. has a few years on them and it’s only one boy doing the attacking.

 

M. is gone alone: That doesn’t seem very smart, since there already was an ambush by bandits and M.’s easily recognizable, going off without at least letting S. know where she went is careless. It does fit with her character, since she’s already gone off to who knows where without guards with no one by her side aside from a not-so-reliable childhood friend – whose mother may or may not be involved in the disappearance of the queen…but the carelessness doesn’t feel really believable.

 

Breasts: Is this weekly reader syndrome or edits I may have missed? Because I distinctly remember that S. didn’t like them at all – now all of a sudden S. doesn’t mind them… Also, the discomforts of the binding are suddenly described as being a lot worse than the previous chapters alluded to. Now the binding causes lightheadedness and being out of breath, but I don’t remember that being the case before.

 

Size of the spirit house: The size of the spirit house wasn’t immediately clear to me. S. walks into it, painfully, and from that I assumed that the house was at least S.’s height. Yet later S. has to kneel down to touch the shingles of the roof, which makes the house a lot smaller than I thought it was. As a center piece to a festival it also feels a little small.

 

No immediate recognition: The interlude says that at that time S. was 14 years old, and I take it that Sam would be a little older than that, since S. has no recollection of Sam ever living with them. Yet in the present S. is 17 years old, so only three years have gone past. With only a difference of three years I’m surprised neither of them recognizes the other. Or are both of them actually a lot younger in the interlude?

 

Curses: I get that Sam is angry, but his curses come across as feeble, like ‘go run yourself through with a sword’. And ‘drown in a factory’ is more confusing than threatening, especially since this is a fantasy setting and we haven’t seen a factory yet. How does one drown in a factory? Is there a lot of water there for some reason? What kind of factory is it?

 

Loss of recognition on page 7: On page 6 S. realizes who Sam is. At least, that’s what I’m getting out of it, since S. realizes that Sam has a longstanding grudge. But then on page 7 S. wonders again who this man is – when that was made clear mere paragraphs ago. You probably mean that S. wonders what his damnation motivation is for his grudge, but on first read it didn’t come across that way to me.

 

Page 8, full recognition at last: I like how it all came together for S., with how similar the two of them look. Part of me does think that S. should have realized this a little sooner in the encounter.

 

Witch threat level: I’m confused about the threat level of witches in this setting. From the previous chapters it felt like witches are a big thing, then when S. wishes that the smoky form is a sending and not a witch, I also felt like witches are a big deal. Yet practically the next sentence about witches is that ‘it’s only a witch’. So, are witches a big deal or not? Because I can no longer tell.

 

Confusing ending: The chapter ending was a bit confusing, because things were happening that have no visual component in S.’s POV. What S. sees is an empty factory, but what S. hears is one that is in action (just like what Sam purportedly heard). Is S. hallucinating the smoky form and the empty room, or is the other way around and is S. hearing things that aren’t there? I’m hoping the next chapter will clarify that.

[AviatrixAway]

I thought that the pacing in this chapter was good, and I found S believable as a sheltered 17-year-old. I'm wondering, though, why M wouldn't have awakened her or left a note (though you do deal with this to some degree by saying that her disappearance is "M like").

I'm a little bit confused regarding Sam's lineage. We figured out that he's Sam, and that he's S's brother, but if that's the case, why would he be considered a foster if Amanda had chosen to take him in? Or is he only S's half brother? Or is this simply part of the culture that was discussed previously? Another point of curiosity is why S wasn't curious when Sam beat S up in the first place. It seems as though people in the other places that S has visited have been rude and/or curious, but not necessarily violent; would S assume that it's because of the question of S's gender (I'm honestly asking; this is not an area of expertise for me)? The other children were helpful. Why not Sam? Wouldn't S wonder? Would S wonder upon meeting Sam again?

I also agree with the note on the spirit house; just a little size tag would be good.

Final point: that factory is spooky as f. Shades of the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. I hope Magda's ok.

[shatteredsmooth]

Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about this project and am jumping into the middle cold.

To answer the first question: So does seem sheltered and 17, though not entirely innocent; they seem to have had a rough few years. 

The pacing in the interlude, which I am guessing is the past, seemed perfect. I was engaged and fully immersed, and felt like I blinked and it was over, which seemed perfect for a between chapters flashback. 

"I stayed on the ground and raked my hands over my arms. It relieved that horrible, incessant itching that came when people looked at me, or talked to me, or assumed, insisted, that I was a girl, or in this case, a boy." This line almost sounds like something I would write in a journal. The emotion in and around it dug its claws in me -- a sign of fantastic writing. 

Also, I'm guessing Sa* in the first part is This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules**er in the later section? The set up makes me think that but Sa seems a lot older than So in the chapter, though the age gaps seems much smaller in the interlude. 

As for the chapter itself, I thought it started a little slow. There was a lot of detail about waking up and getting dressed. I spend too much time doing this in my books, and my cp's and betas complain about it, so I'm not sure if that is coloring my judgement of it. Either way, I think by chapter 11, the reader would or should be familiar enough with So's gender that they won't need such a detailed explanation of the binder and the logic behind it? I think that is something that should be established by now, unless the points of view alternate. 

Pacing aside, the logic behind wearing the bind felt very relatable and reflected reasons why I sometimes wear one. However, that combined with the discussion of the narrator's opinions towards their breasts did hold me up getting into the story because I was comparing both to my own experiences, how I share the characters logic about binders but not about breasts, and wasn't paying attention to where the story was going. It was kind of like shouting DON'T FORGET THIS CHARACTER IS ENBY so it overpowered the scene.  

The pacing picked up to a more comfortable pace once So ran into Sa. There were some world specific terms I didn't get, probably because I havent read the other chapters, but otherwise, I liked the tension. 

The pacing is a little too quick in the factory scene -- I wanted to linger there in that mix of fear and confusion a moment longer, to squirm with the character, until the sounds got louder and M screamed. 

The last four lines were perfect, and left me wanting to read the next chapter ASAP. I'm hoping that is what you are posting tomorrow? 

One or two other comments:

"I always come back to help for tii" What is "tii" ? A typo or a world specific term I don't know?

"Unsure where to go, I scanned hanging signs as I walked, paying" This is one of those pesky phrases that distance the reader  with telling. You can probably just describe what they are seeing and not say that they scanned things. 

"Puget" Like the sound? Is this related to the real world, or is the story completely secondary world? I'm sure I would know this if I read from the begining. 

Let me know if you have any questions. 

 

[Robinski]

So, so late... sorry.

14 years-old: I enjoyed the interlude. I thought it was clearer that previous versions, from what I remember: good tension, good notes, and good ending.

Chapter 11: This is weird, and I have trouble accepting it. If this thing is close enough to the corner for S to walk right into it, then it's close enough to see before turning the corner. Also, which bit of the house does S walk into that it's the shin that S bruises, and ot their toe? Confusing, and also a blocking issue, I think.

I really need some description to help me picture the spirit house scene. I can't get my head around what size the house is; where it is; and how in the seven circles of hades S managed to trip over it in broad daylight (not convinced by that).

I think S is increbily dense not to think this the first time S saw him (in real time) with that hair that's the same as S's. How many people have that kind of hair, and the same skin tone (which must be so obvious that it goes without saying, on first glance)?

Usual gripes and moans in the LBLs, but I enjoyed this chapter just fine. Good pacing, to the point, no faffing around, and a nice cliffhanger to use us on to the next chapter. the things that bothered me in this one were largely missing description, which left me foundering to picture what was in front off S.

Sheltered 17 year-old: Yes. The things I call about her being kind of (unconvincingly) dense are not excused by that age, I think.

[kais]

La la la only a week behind now...

 

On 5/21/2018 at 0:57 PM, Mandamon said:

This means he's 15-16, which sort off strains S calling him "boy" rather than "young man"

Argh, you're right. I think I'm going to have to back these ages up quite a bit, since someone else commented now that S is younger, there isn't much of an age gap, and S should be able to recognize Sam easily since he'd already been into puberty at this point. I wanted the interludes to go in order of age, but with shuffling things around, I think I may have to come up with a different strategy. 

On 5/21/2018 at 0:57 PM, Mandamon said:

Did anyone actually assume that yet?

It's supposed to be implied by the actions and world. If S isn't being recognized as a girl, then the only other option is boy

On 5/21/2018 at 0:57 PM, Mandamon said:

didn't we find out last chapter that there weren't any guilders in the city? Or is that WRS?

There are the confused ones. There have been so many edits to this that I apologize.

On 5/21/2018 at 0:57 PM, Mandamon said:

this is a small house, correct? Might be good to have a quick size tag.

Size tag added!

On 5/21/2018 at 0:57 PM, Mandamon said:

but it still reads a little weird.

I don't really know what to do about this. There needs to be a moment of disconnect, and it's only a few lines. Maybe I'll put him in more clothes, due to the weather, and that will hide his features more or something.

On 5/21/2018 at 0:57 PM, Mandamon said:

is this coming into play later?

It's an old artifact. I've changed it to make it more about the brother reveal thing now

On 5/21/2018 at 0:57 PM, Mandamon said:

I'm still not sure what to think. We've been shown that witches are dangerous, already.

I've tried to make this more about S's misconceptions about what witches can do than anything else

Thank you! Solid comments, as always

 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

S. was beaten up by Sam, and the present where neither of them recognizes the other

Sam recognizes S pretty instantly. S may need some work. I think I'll for sure have to have them bundled more heavily against the cold or something.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

It also reads as a little convenient that we get an interlude showing Sam and S.’s past together just before the chapter where he’s introduced as an adult.

It used to be way earlier and no one connected the two. So I may need to live with convenient so as to not lose impact

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

So when S. is beat up by one of the kids that surprised me, since S. has a few years on them and it’s only one boy doing the attacking.

When I originally wrote this they were all a lot younger, and S in the main narrative was older. I've cleaned it up as much as I can within the constraints of when I need things to happen, aged up some of the kids, and made Sam's age clearer.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

but the carelessness doesn’t feel really believable.

S can't really provide any real protection though, at least not in M's eyes. I was going for more M being more patronizing than anything else.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

Because I distinctly remember that S. didn’t like them at all – now all of a sudden S. doesn’t mind them…

Likely WRS. How S feels about breasts is consistent but somewhat nuanced (and is part of the focus of the narrative, in fact). 

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

but I don’t remember that being the case before.

This is an edit problem. There was more about it in earlier drafts, in earlier chapters, but that all got cut. There really isn't a place anymore, for binder discussions earlier than this. Although I could perhaps mention that the reason S can run through the town is because the binder is loose and waterlogged... In fact, I think I will do just that.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

The size of the spirit house wasn’t immediately clear to me

I've cleared this up.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

go run yourself through with a sword

This one is supposed to be referencing the king's old magic system. It used to be 'go sit on a sword hilt,' but I took that bit out during the adult to YA conversion, and made the magic moving skills from people to people based on just running someone through with an imbued sword, instead of raping them with one. (This was dark fantasy, originally, a long, long time ago). But yeah, 'go run yourself through with a sword' doesn't have nearly as much punch

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

drown in a factory’ is more confusing than threatening, especially since this is a fantasy setting and we haven’t seen a factory yet. How does one drown in a factory? Is there a lot of water there for some reason? What kind of factory is it?

It's supposed to be referring to the water frames, since its a textile factory. Possibly too obscure a reference. I'll revisit it

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

You probably mean that S. wonders what his damnation motivation is for his grudge, but on first read it didn’t come across that way to me.

Argh! Good catch! Will edit.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

So, are witches a big deal or not? Because I can no longer tell.

I'm not doing a very good job with this. They are, but S isn't going to see them as such due to that myopic upbringing. I need to make this more clear.

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Asmodemon said:

The chapter ending was a bit confusing,

By design, so hopefully confusing but also intriguing. Thank you so much for the comments! Very helpful.

[kais]

On 5/24/2018 at 0:51 PM, AviatrixAway said:

though, why M wouldn't have awakened her or left a note

It should be fairly in-character for M, but coming in the middle of the story (thank you for your bravery!) it would look weird, for sure. The short of it is that M has no confidence in S's abilities at the moment, and taking S into a loaded situation, especially noting S's alchemical affiliation, would be a terrible idea.

On 5/24/2018 at 0:51 PM, AviatrixAway said:

I'm a little bit confused regarding Sam's lineage.

Fair. How guild lineage works was defined in the previous chapters. Only a firstborn daughter can inherit. All children before are sent off to be fostered to other guild houses. S's mother fostered out S's older brother, we find here, but in chapter one it is established that the mother never took any children in return--thus furthering S's isolation.

On 5/24/2018 at 0:51 PM, AviatrixAway said:

would S assume that it's because of the question of S's gender (I'm honestly asking; this is not an area of expertise for me)? The other children were helpful. Why not Sam? Wouldn't S wonder? Would S wonder upon meeting Sam again?

This is actually dealt with in a fair bit of detail in a few chapters!

On 5/24/2018 at 0:51 PM, AviatrixAway said:

that factory is spooky as f

Well wahoo, something worked out!

Thank you for commenting, and welcome to RE!

 

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I know almost nothing about this project and am jumping into the middle cold.

And a brave, brave person you are for doing so!

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

he emotion in and around it dug its claws in me -- a sign of fantastic writing. 

*happy dance*

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

The set up makes me think that but Sa seems a lot older than So in the chapter, though the age gaps seems much smaller in the interlude. 

Looks like you hit some of the kiddie codes when typing that comment, so I don't quite understand the question. Generally though, Sam is about a year older than S.

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

As for the chapter itself, I thought it started a little slow. There was a lot of detail about waking up and getting dressed. I spend too much time doing this in my books, and my cp's and betas complain about it, so I'm not sure if that is coloring my judgement of it. Either way, I think by chapter 11, the reader would or should be familiar enough with So's gender that they won't need such a detailed explanation of the binder and the logic behind it? I think that is something that should be established by now, unless the points of view alternate. 

This is definitely the slowest chapter start I have. It's coming off a chapter that was almost entirely about breasts, however, so I think it works in context (and the context is needed), as there actually hasn't been a chance to have an in-depth look at S's binder or the logic behind it. I'd be curious to see how you feel about this start after you read the first ten chapters, for sure!

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

It was kind of like shouting DON'T FORGET THIS CHARACTER IS ENBY so it overpowered the scene.  

LOL, this is actually the whole point of the book, so I'll take it.

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

The pacing is a little too quick in the factory scene -- I wanted to linger there in that mix of fear and confusion a moment longer, to squirm with the character, until the sounds got louder and M screamed. 

Oh, this is a good problem! Hoorah!

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

I'm hoping that is what you are posting tomorrow? 

Yes!

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

What is "tii"

A festival introduced a few chapters ago.

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

You can probably just describe what they are seeing and not say that they scanned things. 

Fair, and an easy fix

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

or is the story completely secondary world? I

Entirely secondary world. I just like the word (and yes, like Puget Sound)

On 5/27/2018 at 6:27 PM, shatteredsmooth said:

Let me know if you have any questions. 

These were awesome! Thank you! 

 

10 hours ago, Robinski said:

Confusing, and also a blocking issue, I think.

Everyone had issues with the house. I've cleaned the section up

10 hours ago, Robinski said:

How many people have that kind of hair, and the same skin tone (which must be so obvious that it goes without saying, on first glance)?

The hair and skin are color are fairly common, but not necessarily in that combination. I'll have to think on this one.

10 hours ago, Robinski said:

The things I call about her being kind of (unconvincingly) dense are not excused by that age, I think.

LOL. fair.

 

 

And with that I'm....caught up? Really? Did hell freeze over? 

[Robinski]

4 hours ago, kais said:

14 hours ago, Robinski said:

The things I call about *her being kind of (unconvincingly) dense are not excused by that age, I think.

LOL. fair.

* Shoot, 'S being dense'. Sorry.

[shatteredsmooth]

9 hours ago, kais said:

Looks like you hit some of the kiddie codes when typing that comment, so I don't quite understand the question. Generally though, Sam is about a year older than S.

Sam in the interlude and Sam--- in the Chapter are the same character, right? In the interlude, it is clear that Sam is about a year older than S. However, in the chapter, he seems like he is at least 10 years older, if not more. 

9 hours ago, kais said:

This is definitely the slowest chapter start I have. It's coming off a chapter that was almost entirely about breasts, however, so I think it works in context (and the context is needed), as there actually hasn't been a chance to have an in-depth look at S's binder or the logic behind it. I'd be curious to see how you feel about this start after you read the first ten chapters, for sure!

I'll keep this in mind when I read from the begining, which I plan to do at some point this week. 

[industrialistDragon]

Most of what I would have said has been covered, so just a couple quick things

 

Interlude

"I stayed on the ground" -- this paragraph, start of pg2 of the interlude on mine, seems out of place. It also feels like a bit too much telling, especially since the subsequent paragraphs do a much better job of showing those same emotions. I sent you my hatchet job separately. 

 

Chapter

I agree with a lot of the comments. I found the chapter confusing, less from a "this is a mysterious part of the plot" standpoint than a "I don't understand why this passage is placed in the text in this location, and I can't tell if it is an editing mistake or not" standpoint. Mysterious parts of a plot are fine, but this is a more textual level of confusion. This section has always had clarity issues, but I think rather than clearing up in this iteration, it's become more muddled. 

 

I also agree that So's extended lack of recognition of Sa feels forced and unnatural. And Sa's curses are falling very flat. 

[kais]

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

Shoot, 'S being dense'. Sorry.

Pronouns are hard! I get it. No worries.  

13 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

However, in the chapter, he seems like he is at least 10 years older, if not more. 

I've been thinking about this most of the day today, and I think I actually sort of like it. With S's sheltering, I could see there being a much more distinct age difference (even though it's still just one year). It will also help fuel Sam's rage later. I think I'll let this hang for now and see if it persists in being weird, or if it works later on.

2 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

I sent you my hatchet job separately. 

It was a great hatchet job! Much better flow now!

2 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

So's extended lack of recognition of Sa feels forced and unnatural.

I've tried to clean this up a bit. Thank you for the help!