20180521- The Ivory Tower- Scenes 1&2- 3382 words- Jorville

[Jorville]

This the second iteration of my largest completed story of 26k words. Have only had my wife and a few buddies from the submarine read and comment on it. As such it's still pretty raw, most of the changes I made were on the first half so the back half is pretty much the original. I have read through it again and would say some very mild V, it's mostly imagined and very brief.
things I know for sure I need feedback/to work on:

Structure, it's a single perspective but no chapters or labels only scene breaks.

Magic, My ideas were (and are still) vague. I should probably lay out my ideas on magic for feedback by itself, lol.

the arc of the main character, this is essentially a villain origin story. She isnt a full fledged villain by the end but I want to make sure the the arc is believable.

I know this is only the first two scene and some or all of this may not apply. Anyways, thanks in advance for any of the criticism I know it still needs a lot of work.
 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Jorville

[Mandamon]

Congrats on your first submission! Now get ready for all the red ink...

Overall, I think the main character can be interesting, but the events in this chapter are not, particularly. This reads develops more into a romance as it goes along than a fantasy. Not that that is bad, but was not what I was expecting when I started out. Right now, I have no idea where it's headed.

I don't really get any sense of the magic as yet. It's been mentioned, but there's no demonstration, or really anything past saying that there is magic.

My biggest problem is: What is the hook that gets us into the story? Why do we care about this character? What exciting events are happening?
We start out with getting a dress for a ball, where even in romance, you need to connect with the character first to care why she is going to the ball.

Looks like you have an arc for this in mind with the villain story. What's the inciting incident that leads to that arc?

Pg 1: The opening is not that captivating--just a woman walking along a street. What's the draw to make us care about her?

pg 2: "She had come home from the ball her father had arranged for her to attend crying"
--She'd come home crying from the ball...

pg 3: There's been a lot of description so far, but not a lot to actively catch my interest.

pg 3: "They had fought for a few moments"
--this section has some...strange family dynamics...

pg 4: "Back among her own tribe"
--ok, so she's not native to this place. That might be good to bring out more earlier.

pg 7: "She however was the daughter of the richest man in the entire city"
--so she is a native then? Or did her father move from the tribe? Or was she raised in the tribe and came to this city recently?

pg 7: "called out in a clear voice"
--She's not winning any sympathetic points.

pg 9: "Fetch it and we shall see if it meets my standards."
--Not getting any more attached to M...

pg 10, top: All this is a big tell about M. Can you show us this competency and skill instead? 

[Jorville]

@Mandamon, thanks this kind of stuff is exactly what I need. 

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Overall, I think the main character can be interesting, but the events in this chapter are not, particularly. This reads develops more into a romance as it goes along than a fantasy. Not that that is bad, but was not what I was expecting when I started out. Right now, I have no idea where it's headed.

Looks like you have an arc for this in mind with the villain story. What's the inciting incident that leads to that arc?

It's not a romance, and I do have an arc as I have already written it. My question is would it be better to give a general summary of the story before you guys read it or is it better to just deliver it in the bits and let people critique it as it comes?

As for interest, it sounds to me that you are saying that the events aren't interesting so I should focus on that rather then trying to make M herself more interesting. Am I correct in this?

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

My biggest problem is: What is the hook that gets us into the story? Why do we care about this character? What exciting events are happening?
We start out with getting a dress for a ball, where even in romance, you need to connect with the character first to care why she is going to the character first to care why she is going to the ball.

From you comments I am thinking that I should probably take out the part of her thinking about the events and just write a beginning that is perhaps in the aftermath of events.

 

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 2: "She had come home from the ball her father had arranged for her to attend crying"
--She'd come home crying from the ball...

pg 3: There's been a lot of description so far, but not a lot to actively catch my interest.

pg 3: "They had fought for a few moments"
--this section has some...strange family dynamics..

Yeah the reason it's in red is that my wife has been really insistent that I take that part out. I was going for an expression of her not used to haveing men behave this way so she would act oddly, but it obviously it just sounds weird so leans me more to write a better more interesting beginning.

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 4: "Back among her own tribe"

--ok, so she's not native to this place. That might be good to bring out more earlier.

pg 7: "She however was the daughter of the richest man in the entire city"
--so she is a native then? Or did her father move from the tribe? Or was she raised in the tribe and came to this city recently?

this is something I address later. Her Father is from the city, her mother is not. Is that confusion ok if it is addressed later or should I try to figure out how to clear it up?

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 7: "called out in a clear voice"

--She's not winning any sympathetic points.

pg 9: "Fetch it and we shall see if it meets my standards."
--Not getting any more attached to M...

pg 10, top: All this is a big tell about M. Can you show us this competency and skill instead? 

So the initial feedback was that I made M too soft in the beginning. As I said she eventually becomes a villain so I wanted to make the transition believable. I might have swung too hard the other way and made her just look like a jerk.

Thanks for all the red ink, this is what I need.

Also, forgot to ask, when you said chapters that intentional? I ask because I always struggle with where and how to place chapters so if this feels like it should be a chapter I would like to know.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Jorville
additional question.

[Mandamon]

16 hours ago, Jorville said:

give a general summary of the story before you guys read it or is it better to just deliver it in the bits and let people critique it as it comes?

I'm always in favor of giving the story how it is with no explanation. If it can't stand up on it's own, then it needs revision.

16 hours ago, Jorville said:

that the events aren't interesting so I should focus on that rather then trying to make M herself more interesting.

 

16 hours ago, Jorville said:

just write a beginning that is perhaps in the aftermath of events.

 

16 hours ago, Jorville said:

I made M too soft in the beginning. As I said she eventually becomes a villain so I wanted to make the transition believable.

I'd focus on M, rather than events. You can make a lack of plot interesting with a good character, but it's much harder vice-versa. Also, since you've already told us this is a villain origin story, your opening hook could be something like "I am a villain," or "You will hate me after you read this," or something along that vein so we are prepped for a tragic arc rather than a positive one. Showing us M's character after that, as a pleasant person, can make the reader feel smart about "oh, I know that she'll change."

16 hours ago, Jorville said:

Her Father is from the city, her mother is not. Is that confusion ok

I'd clear it up at the beginning.

16 hours ago, Jorville said:

when you said chapters

Just a habit of speech. It certainly could be a chapter, but I think the beginning requires enough rewriting that's not a big question at the moment.

[QuirkyGrandpa]

:3 hey babe! 

I finally found my way onto the forums. Now I can criticize your work online too! You can't escape.

[kais]

Hi! Welcome to RE! It's always nice to see some fresh blood around. Sometimes the board comments can be a little overwhelming at first, but we're all here to help! Crit can be a hard thing to take, but you get to give it out, too. In the end, we're all here to learn from each other. It's a neat community, and I'm glad you've joined it!

Overall

If you were setting up a fantasy romance, this would be a decent intro. As a villain origin story, I'm concerned about the implicit bias in the coding of your main character. Coding darker people (skin, hair, whatever) as savage, or villains, is really problematic, although a very common trope (see every Disney villain ever). I'd suggest revisiting the underlying themes and seeing if you can't deal with some of the bias.

Otherwise, I'm interested in the storyline. I always do enjoy a gender role swap story!

On 5/21/2018 at 0:29 PM, Mandamon said:

This reads develops more into a romance as it goes along than a fantasy.

Yup. I'm fine either way, but it definitely is hitting romance buttons right now

On 5/21/2018 at 0:29 PM, Mandamon said:

My biggest problem is: What is the hook that gets us into the story?

Also agree. We need that hook! Maybe starting off at the ball where she gets made fun of?

On 5/21/2018 at 1:58 PM, Jorville said:

or is it better to just deliver it in the bits and let people critique it as it comes?

Definitely better, I think, to let us react to it without explanation. A reader wouldn't get an explanation, so you get better feedback this way. Pretend we're readers at the bookstore, trying to decide whether to buy your book.

 

 

 

As I go

- page one: the cold open lacks a hook, and comes off a little 'male-gaze,' for being a female POV. Will return to this thought once I've read down through, but I think likely you're coming in too early to the narrative. Will revisit. As another note 'tan' doesn't tell me much about the actual color of her skin

- typo, bottom of page one, The in the

- She had come home from... this sentence really confused me and I had to read it three times. I think it might need to be rearranged or get a bit of punctuation. 

- there is for places, their is for people

- page two: I'll caution on the 'dark' complexion (black hair, tan skin that may or may not be white), and using the term 'savage.' Especially if the other characters are fair

- page four: I feel kind of cheated that we're being told about this event instead of actually experiencing it. It's also not a particularly dynamic way to start a book

- page four: the dark haired savage is from the jungle??  That's.... problematic

- page seven: we're not given skin tones or hair color on most of these other characters. Is white the default?

- page nine: there are a number of typos and awkward sentences thus far. I suggest reading the narrative out loud to yourself, to help you catch them

 

[Jorville]

31 minutes ago, kais said:

Also agree. We need that hook! Maybe starting off at the ball where she gets made fun of?

Yeah, I am definitely looking at this. I am looking at what I want to add to this to make a better intro for it.

 

1 hour ago, kais said:

- page one: the cold open lacks a hook, and comes off a little 'male-gaze,' for being a female POV. Will return to this thought once I've read down through, but I think likely you're coming in too early to the narrative. Will revisit. As another note 'tan' doesn't tell me much about the actual color of her skin

Could you clarify what you mean by 'male gaze'? Also maybe I haven't looked into the technical side of things but don't really know what too early to the narrative means. Are you saying that I should start the story later? I don't know how that works with writing a new or significantly changing the beginning.

1 hour ago, kais said:

- She had come home from... this sentence really confused me and I had to read it three times. I think it might need to be rearranged or get a bit of punctuation. 

- there is for places, their is for people

 -page nine: there are a number of typos and awkward sentences thus far. I suggest reading the narrative out loud to yourself, to help you catch them

Yeah, I do need to read through for awkward sentences and typos like that. I should try to work on not doing that in the first place more though, but it helps to annoy @QuirkyGrandpawhen I force her to read my work

1 hour ago, kais said:

- page two: I'll caution on the 'dark' complexion (black hair, tan skin that may or may not be white), and using the term 'savage.' Especially if the other characters are fair

- page four: the dark haired savage is from the jungle??  That's.... problematic

So I don't get into the M's home culture much, but I am trying to show how some people here would view her own civilization. M doesn't think of herself as a savage, I was going for trying to show that she loves both cultures for different reasons. I'll try to make the cultural differences more obvious.

1 hour ago, kais said:

- page four: I feel kind of cheated that we're being told about this event instead of actually experiencing it. It's also not a particularly dynamic way to start a book

This is a common theme with the beginning I am definitely going to look at this and add the actual event or maybe immediate aftermath.

Thanks for your help I really appreciate it. All of this is really helping me get this moving along.

[AviatrixAway]

I actually enjoyed most of the description, but I agree with some earlier notes that it might be interesting to start out the story at the ball. This would give us in the moment knowledge of how she's treated, how she acts, etc., rather than reminiscences of same. I also wonder (barring the prejudicial discourse we were privy to outside the dressmaker's shop), if her treatment at the ball was as bad as she thought it was, largely because she comes across as kind of arrogant and a little fragile. If she's created an arrogant demeanor as a reaction to constant criticism, and her internal dialogue is something different, then some mention of that might be beneficial.

Another aspect that stuck out for me is that she physically attacked her father. I know that she has skill as a warrior and I know that her society is female dominated, but this seems like a pretty intense reaction toward someone who was trying to comfort her.

Finally, I do find her skin tone and hair color paired with the word "savage" problematic. I know that this is how other people see her, and she is far from it, but the connotations are still there.

I hope this is helpful!

 

[Jorville]

5 hours ago, AviatrixAway said:

I agree with some earlier notes that it might be interesting to start out the story at the ball. This would give us in the moment knowledge of how she's treated, how she acts, etc., rather than reminiscences of same. I also wonder (barring the prejudicial discourse we were privy to outside the dressmaker's shop), if her treatment at the ball was as bad as she thought it was, largely because she comes across as kind of arrogant and a little fragile. If she's created an arrogant demeanor as a reaction to constant criticism, and her internal dialogue is something different, then some mention of that might be beneficial 

Yeah, it seem the general consensus is that I need to start earlier. Like I said before I have some good ideas for that already and will start on them soon.

5 hours ago, AviatrixAway said:

Another aspect that stuck out for me is that she physically attacked her father. I know that she has skill as a warrior and I know that her society is female dominated, but this seems like a pretty intense reaction toward someone who was trying to comfort her.

Yeah, @QuirkyGrandpa has been saying that about that part for a while, that's why it was highlighted in red. probably just going to eliminate that.

5 hours ago, AviatrixAway said:

Finally, I do find her skin tone and hair color paired with the word "savage" problematic. I know that this is how other people see her, and she is far from it, but the connotations are still there.

I don't think putting it any other way is going to come across the way I want it to. Not all, but some people view her as a savage because she is from somewhere so different. There would be a similar group if it were set in her homeland.

[kais]

3 hours ago, Jorville said:

There would be a similar group if it were set in her homeland.

It's not that the character is being referred to as savage, but that you've coded the character as a WOC, and she's going to be a villain, and you've got her being called a savage. It's a problematic issue with racist tropes, but here is an excellent website that can help!

[Robinski]

I love reading new stuff on here, and very keen to get into this so, without further ado…

• I’m not sure how much one permits the sun to fall on them, as opposed to it doing whatever the heck it likes. I like the picture you’re building, which will draw me on, but the grammar is distracting me fairly significantly, so far. Same vein: I think ‘Her lithe figure… is a new sentence.
• Yep, so, a market with vendors shouting their wares is a massive fantasy cliché. I'm not saying don’t have a market, but everyone has a market, it needs to be different. Maybe the vendors all use sign language, I don’t know, something. After my initial reaction, I do like how you have ‘personalised’ two of the vendors. I think that’s well done: I feel something for them, at least, and now I can hear the market (pots banging).
• “The morning was bright, especially as the sunlight” – feels a bit repetitive of the first line.
• “Mer…” – I like the name; how it rolls off the tongue.
• I’ve get a nagging feeling that tense might be about to wander, but maybe it’s only “slide” where I think it should be “slid”.
• Foot of Page 1, typo, “The In the jungle…”
• “Calling out their wears wares…” – typo. Also, returning to the phrase felt like uncomfortable repetition to me, so soon after the first instance.
• Typo “Other girls their there”
• I think maybe ‘Servant’ singular, would scan better.
• Okay, there are several drafting and grammar issues that are tripping me up, but those are easily enough fixed, so I'm going to stop mentioning them now.
• I’m four pages in here and—mechanical issues aside—while I’m not bowled over, I am interested and engaged. I do have a fairly significant question in my head as I learn more about M’s situation, though, which is; How did she/her family get here, if she loves the jungle so much, and why are they trying to fit in anyway? I can surmise that it’s a diplomatic mission, as that is very much the feel of the set up, but I would like that confirmed much earlier on, so I can stop thinking about it.
• You gave us the m/c’s name before, but I don’t remember ‘Del’ being a part of it. Since ‘Del’ isn’t really explained here, you could drop it altogether. ‘Savage’ would be enough in this instance, to convey to me who was being referred to.
• “quickly” three times in quick succession at the foot of Page 7. Sorry, I know I said I wasn’t going to comment on drafting, but… More importantly, I do enjoy the uncomfortable dynamic in the dress shop. Clarity is lacking somewhat because of the roughness.
• I think Y & Sons is the name of the shop, so ‘Sons’ should get a capital ‘S’. Also, I noted one or two instances of ‘lady Suchandsuch’, which may be just typos, but should be ‘Lady Suchandsuch’, of course, as it’s her fully entitled name.
• Three days does not seem enough time. Also, with the ball being so close, I would rather have heard about it sooner in the story.
• ‘dressmaker’ is one word.
• The stooped old dressmaker wringing his hands is veering towards cliché. Again, I'm not saying don’t do it, but if you're going there, you need to make it stand out from all the other stooped, hand-wringing craftsmen.
• Is M the “the young Alt woman”? If so, that line is out of her PoV.
• “people seemed to pay attention more to her here than they did back home” – really? But didn’t you say she was the queen’s daughter? I find this hard to believe. Even though her magical abilities have not developed, she’s still the chieftain’s daughter.
• I’m absolutely itching to do Line-by-Line comments, but I’m resisting!
• On Page 10, the section about her abilities feels rather like a repetition of what we know already, rather than an expansion on that idea. I think you might consider giving more detail here, going a bit deeper.
• “deep green colour” – for the description of a fashion item, I would expect more specifics about the colour. For one thing, the colour is green, so I think this phrase is ‘off’, and rather could talk about a shade or tone of green.
• “Her silver eyes…” – wait, what?! This is a kind of fundamental detail to only be getting on Page 12. It completely changes my image of the character.
• “M’s eyes lighted lit up…”
• “This made the Alt more furious until she realized” – Yeah, I don’t think you can refer to her as ‘the Alt’, it breaks her PoV, doesn’t it? It feels wrong to me, like it’s too remote, and is very easily mistaken as a reference to someone else in the room.
• Hmm, nope, I’m struggling with this. I thought the man was a tailor, but he’s just some random stranger plucking a thread from her dress? I think that is still crossing the line. It’s not his place to do that. Also, his introduction here seems contrived. My instinct is screaming that this is the lover interest. The signs seem very clear.
• To me, his chat-up line is disappointingly bland and by-the-book. Maybe he’s a bad guy. I can hope!
• “…as he prodded the young woman.” – again, this just bothers me when we are in her PoV.

Very interesting. Fish-out-of-water is always a compelling approach to a story, certainly for me, so I am interested. The phrasing, grammar etc. needs some ‘wordsmithing’. Apart from the typos, there passages that were unclear, and a certain amount of repetition in some of the language. That’s what editing is for, after all, and I’m remembering now that you’ve just typed this up from paper (I think?), which I hate doing!! So, I totally sympathise.

Anyway, enough of that, I think you have an interesting culture clash setup here, and the premise that women are dominant in M’s tribe just adds to that nicely. I would like to see more of how their tribe works, but I suppose that may not be where the story is going, still, hoping to see that expectation in M and how it plays in the city.

The introduction of the male character bothered me, because it all felt rather bland. There was good tension in the start, but then M was insufficiently outraged, I thought, but what surely was still a very forward and inappropriate gesture, I think.

Overall, I'm not quite sure where I stand with the story, or rather where it is going. I know where I think it is going, and in terms of the fish-out-of-water thing, and M’s particular set of skills seem suitable to put her into the heart of some kind of political intrigue or plotting, which I would be fine with.

Promising, but some of the grammar and phrasing etc. really needs an overhaul through an edit, imo.

Thanks for sharing. I appreciate some of the issues that others have raised, but I did enjoy it, and hope to read more  

<R>

[Jorville]

11 hours ago, Robinski said:

 

• I’m not sure how much one permits the sun to fall on them, as opposed to it doing whatever the heck it likes. I like the picture you’re building, which will draw me on, but the grammar is distracting me fairly significantly, so far. Same vein: I think ‘Her lithe figure… is a new sentence.
• “The morning was bright, especially as the sunlight” – feels a bit repetitive of the first line.
• “Mer…” – I like the name; how it rolls off the tongue.
• I’ve get a nagging feeling that tense might be about to wander, but maybe it’s only “slide” where I think it should be “slid”.
• Foot of Page 1, typo, “The In the jungle…”
• “Calling out their wears wares…” – typo. Also, returning to the phrase felt like uncomfortable repetition to me, so soon after the first instance.
• Typo “Other girls their there”
• I think maybe ‘Servant’ singular, would scan better.
• Okay, there are several drafting and grammar issues that are tripping me up, but those are easily enough fixed, so I'm going to stop mentioning them now.
• “quickly” three times in quick succession at the foot of Page 7. Sorry, I know I said I wasn’t going to comment on drafting, but… More importantly, I do enjoy the uncomfortable dynamic in the dress shop. Clarity is lacking somewhat because of the roughness.
• I think Y & Sons is the name of the shop, so ‘Sons’ should get a capital ‘S’. Also, I noted one or two instances of ‘lady Suchandsuch’, which may be just typos, but should be ‘Lady Suchandsuch’, of course, as it’s her fully entitled name.
• Is M the “the young Alt woman”? If so, that line is out of her PoV.
• I’m absolutely itching to do Line-by-Line comments, but I’m resisting!
• “M’s eyes lighted lit up…”

The phrasing, grammar etc. needs some ‘wordsmithing’. Apart from the typos, there passages that were unclear, and a certain amount of repetition in some of the language. That’s what editing is for, after all, and I’m remembering now that you’ve just typed this up from paper (I think?), which I hate doing!! So, I totally sympathise.

Promising, but some of the grammar and phrasing etc. really needs an overhaul through an edit, imo.

Yeah I did say it was pretty raw so I appreciate all the feedback on it. I will start addressing a lot of this when I sit down with all these critiques. @QuirkyGrandpa really hates repetition so I try to change up the terms I use a lot. I will take a look at this because I don't want to break POV and make it feel awkward.

11 hours ago, Robinski said:

 

• Yep, so, a market with vendors shouting their wares is a massive fantasy cliché. I'm not saying don’t have a market, but everyone has a market, it needs to be different. Maybe the vendors all use sign language, I don’t know, something. After my initial reaction, I do like how you have ‘personalised’ two of the vendors. I think that’s well done: I feel something for them, at least, and now I can hear the market (pots banging).
• The stooped old dressmaker wringing his hands is veering towards cliché. Again, I'm not saying don’t do it, but if you're going there, you need to make it stand out from all the other stooped, hand-wringing craftsmen.

I will take another look at this. There is a later scene where the market not in session. There is a big statue and fountains and what not. This is a merchant city that is really free market oriented so there aren't a lot of legal restrictions but maybe I can put in some traditions or something. I will need some filler for the scene if I write a new beginning.

11 hours ago, Robinski said:

• I’m four pages in here and—mechanical issues aside—while I’m not bowled over, I am interested and engaged. I do have a fairly significant question in my head as I learn more about M’s situation, though, which is; How did she/her family get here, if she loves the jungle so much, and why are they trying to fit in anyway? I can surmise that it’s a diplomatic mission, as that is very much the feel of the set up, but I would like that confirmed much earlier on, so I can stop thinking about it.
• You gave us the m/c’s name before, but I don’t remember ‘Del’ being a part of it. Since ‘Del’ isn’t really explained here, you could drop it altogether. ‘Savage’ would be enough in this instance, to convey to me who was being referred to.
• “people seemed to pay attention more to her here than they did back home” – really? But didn’t you say she was the queen’s daughter? I find this hard to believe. Even though her magical abilities have not developed, she’s still the chieftain’s daughter.

Anyway, enough of that, I think you have an interesting culture clash setup here, and the premise that women are dominant in M’s tribe just adds to that nicely. I would like to see more of how their tribe works, but I suppose that may not be where the story is going, still, hoping to see that expectation in M and how it plays in the city.

Ok so not the first comment on M's origin. M is a child of two worlds. He mother is from and still lives in what she considers her home. Her father is a native of this city and lives there now. I think the next scene goes into it in better detail but it really seems like this is tripping people so I will try to make it a bit more clear when I work on this again. let me know if it works out in later reads.

11 hours ago, Robinski said:

 

• Hmm, nope, I’m struggling with this. I thought the man was a tailor, but he’s just some random stranger plucking a thread from her dress? I think that is still crossing the line. It’s not his place to do that. Also, his introduction here seems contrived. My instinct is screaming that this is the lover interest. The signs seem very clear.
• To me, his chat-up line is disappointingly bland and by-the-book. Maybe he’s a bad guy. I can hope!

The introduction of the male character bothered me, because it all felt rather bland. There was good tension in the start, but then M was insufficiently outraged, I thought, but what surely was still a very forward and inappropriate gesture, I think.

hmm,  I will take a look at this. Her initial reaction would be physical discipline but she is trying to be more measured and, do as the Romans do, so to speak. I will try to look at the dialogue to see if I can present more outrage without having her fly off the handle.

 

11 hours ago, Robinski said:

 

• On Page 10, the section about her abilities feels rather like a repetition of what we know already, rather than an expansion on that idea. I think you might consider giving more detail here, going a bit deeper.
• “deep green colour” – for the description of a fashion item, I would expect more specifics about the colour. For one thing, the colour is green, so I think this phrase is ‘off’, and rather could talk about a shade or tone of green.
• “Her silver eyes…” – wait, what?! This is a kind of fundamental detail to only be getting on Page 12. It completely changes my image of the character.

I don't have the scene in easy reach right now but I will look at page 10 again and see what I can do. 

I will consult with @QuirkyGrandpa on the color stuff. As an artist she really has a grasp on that sort of thing.

It might be irrelevant at this point because I will be writing a different beginning but I do see the point. I don't really know if it could have been easily worked in before that point. Like I said though, might be irrelevant.

Thanks a ton for your feedback @Robinski. I have been so starved for input on this story for so long that it's a relief to have all of you guys look at it.

[Robinski]

13 hours ago, Jorville said:

Yeah I did say it was pretty raw so I appreciate all the feedback on it.

You did, and I went a bit heavy on that, which is kind of my thing, but sorry; I just stumble over that stuff when I'm trying to make progress, but my grammar brain is screaming at me "They can't do that!!"

13 hours ago, Jorville said:

There is a later scene where the market not in session. There is a big statue and fountains and what not.

I like the sound of that. I reckon that 'empty market' is something a bit different. One 'antidote' to doing something 'familiar' like a market scene is to do it really, really well, with great description and colour and some weird/quirky details--blow all those genres market scenes out of the water.

13 hours ago, Jorville said:

M is a child of two worlds. He mother is from and still lives in what she considers her home. Her father is a native of this city and lives there now. I think the next scene goes into it in better detail

That's good. I wonder if it might be fleshed out just a little when it comes up at first, to avoid reader confusion before we get to the more fulsome explanation. I sometimes find it difficult to balance mystery and explanation--that's a failing of mine, so I can sympathise. I guess there are some things that don't need to be mysterious/intriguing.

13 hours ago, Jorville said:

I have been so starved for input on this story for so long that it's a relief to have all of you guys look at it.

It's a pleasure to have you (and @QuirkyGrandpa) in our clutches (erm) in the group, and to torture you with our obsessive comments and nitpicking (uhh) provide constructive feedback. I sometimes forget to let people up for air (ahh) highlight the positives, but I am enjoying the story. I feel that I can feel your commitment to it, and you cannot escape (eh) I look forward to reading more  

[industrialistDragon]

Hello and welcome to RE! You've jumped right into the discussions and that's great!

Over all, I think there are some good ideas in here, the bones of a fun and interesting story. I like that the main character doesn't take any guff from anybody, and turns her defeat into a renewed sense of purpose. From what I can glean of the rest of the characters and setting, they would be something I would enjoy reading. That said, I shared many of the issues others did, with clarity, grammar, and some unfortunate implications surrounding the protagonist. 

 

As I go:

I see @kais  has already mentioned the male gaze, and honestly, that's the first thing that sticks out for me as well.  "Male gaze" is a term for when the "camera lens" or narrator's perspective assumes that hetero men will be the primary audience. Usually this ends up being a strange fixation on women's body parts, even when the protagonist and POV character is a heterosexual woman.  Have you seen the movie Suicide Squad? Among the many (many) things to criticize in that movie is the way Margot Robbie's rear end is given as much screen time and as many close ups as some of the other characters in their entirety.  Granted, she's a gorgeous actor, but the camera reduces her in most of her scenes to nothing but a collection of the body parts hetero men most often enjoy ogling. That's classic male gaze. While the descriptive sentences in this piece aren't on that level, they're definitely on the same continuum.  It strikes an off note for the protagonist to think of herself in that way, when 1) she's a woman herself, and 2) from what I can glean from the rest of the text, her culture apparently doesn't have even similar sexualization of women's bodies. 

 

While I don't have an issue with markets in general, I do agree that starting the story with several pages of reminisces and somewhat remote descriptions of a stereotypical market is not the best way to interest readers in either the character or the world.  A lot of the critique given in this forum is with the assumption that the end-goal of running a story through the group is some form of professional publication, and thus can get a bit rough about the beginning 30 to 50 pages of a work.  Oftentimes editors or agents won't read past the opening paragraph, so the beginning has to be especially powerful and convey as much of the uniqueness of the story as possible!  If professional publication isn't your goal with any given piece, just let us know and we'll tailor our critiques accordingly.  With that in mind, the market trope being played so straight here, with little in the way of information conveying how this market is different from any other market in any other fantasy story is what I believe most of the comments thus far have been picking up on. The character's treatment at the ball is much more interesting than descriptions of a typical market, so it would be more of a unique "hook" to open with.

The thing to remember here is that Tropes Are Not Inherently Bad. They're also not inherently GOOD, either. They're tools, and shorthand, and some are far more problematic than others. They can be deliciously subverted, or comfortingly met. They can be horrifically overused and terribly written, too. 

Any way they are used, though, the author should be aware of them in the work. If the tropes are desired in the work, then how is the author differentiating their characters and plot from all the others using the same archetypes? How is the author turning the work from just another Trope X tale into something uniquely their own? That's what readers of genre fiction look for in trope-heavy stories. They want to see how this story makes something new out of something familiar. Or at least, that's what I look for. 

 

I would really like to have a bit more information on the protagonist before I spend several pages with her picking out dresses. I'm not even entirely sure of her name, and I'm several pages into the story. If I had been with her to experience her humiliation at the ball, and then followed her to pick out her new "dancing armor," I think I would care a lot more about the scenes with the tailor. Again, making me care about the character and her world, showing me how her world is different from the three bookcases of other fantasy stories that're in my house, and doing that as quickly as possible in the opening are tantamount in getting a work off to a strong start. 

 

Clarity in general is something I feel that could benefit the piece greatly.  As others have mentioned, it's difficult to get a clear idea of the town, the setting, who the major players are, in addition to basic ideas about our protagonist, like her name and the identity of her parents. I can tell the information is in there and I like what of it I understand, but I don't feel like the information is laid out in a way that is logical for me and I become too confused to make any sense out of much of what I'm reading. 

 

As others have mentioned, I am also picking up a large number of spelling and grammar errors in this section.  We all do the best we can and some things always slip through, but a large number of spelling and grammar issues can make reading and understanding a piece much more difficult.  Errors like that make the reader aware they are reading words on a page, and break the illusion that the reader is experiencing what is happening in the story. 

Again, I like the bones on this story, I enjoyed the main character, and I enjoy "fish out of water" type stories in general, so I do want to see where this goes. It reminds me a little bit of the book The Traitor, Baru Cormorant, by Seth Dickinson, which also has a villain (sort of) as a protagonist. I look forward to seeing what happens next!

 

 

[shatteredsmooth]

On 5/26/2018 at 11:38 PM, industrialistDragon said:

f I had been with her to experience her humiliation at the ball, and then followed her to pick out her new "dancing armor," I think I would care a lot more about the scenes with the tailor.

I agree with this  -- I was a little bored with the dresses, but if you followed this suggestion and opened with the humiliation, then went to the dress shopping, it would be more engaging. 

 

On 5/26/2018 at 11:38 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I can tell the information is in there and I like what of it I understand, but I don't feel like the information is laid out in a way that is logical for me and I become too confused to make any sense out of much of what I'm reading. 

I found that I would get a piece of information a page or two after I needed it,  and then it would come in an a way that felt a little too much like an info dump.

For a while, I was wondering why she was even in the city so much it was making it hard to focus, and later, I did get my answer, but I really needed it sooner.

Other times, I felt information was repeated. I'll have more details when I finish reading.

 

On 5/26/2018 at 11:38 PM, industrialistDragon said:

and I enjoy "fish out of water" type stories in general,

Me too! This concept and arc has a lot of potential, but the way it is executed is the problem, but there is a lot of potential you can hone.

 

On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 PM, kais said:

Coding darker people (skin, hair, whatever) as savage, or villains, is really problematic, although a very common trope (see every Disney villain ever). I'd suggest revisiting the underlying themes and seeing if you can't deal with some of the bias.

This is one of the bigger problems I had with the story too. And It really bugged me when the MC talked about her father's society as civilization. It made it seem like she was devaluing her own culture instead of thinking of it as a different civilization. 

 

A lot of people commented on the grammar. I made some notes as I read -- I'll email them later, but it looks like others have pointed them out. 

Anyway, when I get caught up to the latest submission, I'll give you more detailed overall feedback. I just wanted to see what others had said and chime in.