Robinski - 180517 - AK DH Outline etc - 3609 words (----)

[Robinski]

Okay, so, something different this week. Also, something incredibly late, I am so sorry. On the plus side, I hope, it is pretty short and only in note form, as it is an outline for a novella that I am going to write for the Tor.com July submission window.

Some of you will have read these characters before in the short story that I submitted in September 2017 (called Open Their Eyes--involved robbing a coach), and I think they were pretty well received at the time. The point I am going for here is of course to stand out, but also be compelling. Also, I am trying to be much less in discovery (pants-ing) mode, and have a much more tightly-plotted story, as that is very much (I think) my biggest weakness at the moment, ending up letting things spiral out of control in terms of complexity, and therefore confusion (see the last eight weeks' submissions!!).

Any and all comments welcomed. Please slaughter me if this sounds like anything else you've read, or is close to anything anywhere  

Edited May 25, 2018 by Robinski

[Mandamon]

I took a gander at it and came up with some notes...

 

"This is a series of novellas; so, not (as) long to write"
--I'm coming off of writing two novellas in 5-6 months...*gasp* *wheeze*  It's basically taken all my free time.

On magic:
is it only bones that can be used? That seems to be the case. You talk about animal bones and levels of magic use, so my mind automatically jumped to eating human bones as one of the top tiers (if fantastical animals are not included), but something that is extremely frowned upon (for obvious reasons). This reminds me of another series. I can't remember the name, but I think it was urban fantasy and involved magicians eating rare animals and/or other magic users to take their magic. Might do some research to find out what it was to avoid overlap.

Characters:
Backgrounds and descriptions all seem fine. However, I notice you have a 4/2 male/female split, and no LGBTQ rep. What if the women start coming on to Gar, but he's after Jeh? (Edit: yes, I came up with this before reading the summary...)

Plot:
Scene 1: "The women in here are all ugly"
--eh, this sort of thing no longer entices me.

Scene 2: For a novella, you're going to have to move fast. The "time passes in jail" part screams instant slow-down to me. You've shown a chase scene at the beginning, now need to keep up the pace. Maybe J runs into C (who already has a crew) getting away from being arrested, rather than being thrown into jail? dunno. Needs something to move it along.

"Burglary of country houses?"
--so is this a heist? That has a very definite story structure.

Scene 3: I actually wouldn't mind a Locke Lamora fanfic...
hmm..so this still seems to be all planning. Can you combine this part with scene 2 and achieve both at one time? Or is this more character building? Still, especially in a novella, you need to do both at once.

Scene 4: How many POVs in this? For a novella, you should restrict to 1, or maaaaybe 2.

Scene 5/6: There's a lot of "going to" and "learning about" in this writeup, and it's starting to sound more like a novel than a novella. You might be able to skip directly to Scene 7...

Scene 7: This is the first action since the beginning of the book...

Scene 8/9: This is starting to get to the meat of the story. I think this can come sooner and you can cut some of the above.

Scene 10/11: denouement seems good...
Lol--I would like to note that I totally called Gar out before getting to this point.
Although I'd rather see him out at the beginning and chasing after Jeh (returned or not). "Revealing" that someone is gay is sort of passe. Most pub houses (I'm guessing) are going to want the LGBTQ characters up front. @kais may be able to advise more.

Scene 12: Definitely can set this up as the first job in a sequence.

Questions:
-Are the stakes high enough?
--probably, but you need to start a lot closer to the meat of the story in a novella.

-Do the characters and their interactions sound interesting/engaging?
--yes, I think you have some well-defined character motivations. Just don't take too long to develop them.

-Do the setting and the set-up sound interesting?
Takes too long to get there, but yes.

-What about the magic system?
I like it.

Overall:
This could certainly work, but I think (knowing your writing style) you'd really need to focus on getting to the plot objective as soon as possible. Any character development has to come while events are happening. If anything, my challenge to you writing would be this:

Can you throw us into the thick of things, where the group is already assembled, except for maybe one or two characters, and learn about them as they act?

[Jorville]

Really clear outline, very well organized. I need to develop my own ability to do that. 

I like the basis section, good basic concepts on that. I was thinking about the government system though, so going to put on my history/philosophy hat for a moment. A monarchy is only as good as the monarch. If you want to have a neutral good state then you might consider more of a Roman imperial model with significant amount of power shifted to a legislative body to keep the monarchy from getting out of control. I understand this might be a little to in depth on this point but you could end up with an organization that trys to keep balance between the two branches of government or two organizations that each watch out for their respective corners. Anyway that might be a little overboard on that side of things but as someone who is interested in that sort of thing it caught my attention.

For the stereotypes: I don't think its necessary to wholly avoid those. You could put one in and leave out the others, or try to give one or two a twist. like you said avoiding a stereotype can get to be a stereotype of own.

On the Magic system: I was thinking that it was a few too may steps to get the power. Going a little nerdy on this but every time something is altered in form it loses energy. It would make a little more sense to me if the magic user could pull the energy directly from a bone, burning it up in the process of using that energy. You could still have people using ash or potion but that would then give less energy then so then solid bone would make you more powerful but would then have a built in inconvenience making it harder. That's a little more logical to me then drinking tons of magic bone juice to get more power.

Characters: The only flaw I saw was G. If he is a moral hero why would he be fighting a the monarchy for justice with the common people? To me having a classic moral hero fighting a neutral good state makes the hero look silly. might want to give him a past with his family being imprisoned wrongly or something so that he has an actual reason to dislike the benevolent monarchy.

For the story:  I think that the animus behind the test/robbery could use some work. I feel like the we need to test this guy cause we are down a member is a little thin even with the suspected necromancy. Maybe have the necromancer be a rogue member of the C or a member of a rival faction of D, something like that.

Questions:

High stakes: I think the stakes are high enough, especially for a first in a series.

Interactions: I think the ideas a pretty solid would have to see it written out to get a better picture of it.

Interesting set up: Yeah I think the setting and set up sound intriguing.

Magic: already said my outlook.

Last note: Another Kingdom is a narrative podcast, which will be turned into a book by author Andrew Klavan.  I know different stories can have the same title or similar but if originality is important to you you might want to think about it.

Overall: A lot of good stuff in there, would really like to see how the story plays out.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Jorville
removal of character names

[kais]

So here are my read through thoughts:

 

- I much prefer everything being morally grey than having an actual villain

- can we just add fridging to the avoidance list now, to help educate future generations?

- bone magic is both interesting, and grounded enough that you won't have to completely remake the wheel. I think it could work!

- burning bones sounds good. Boil the bones and you get pyridine, and then you're in my book. Crossover potential!

- your characters suffer from white default. Skin tone the people!

- oooh, this is W&S land! Yay!

- (it does sound a bit like the plot of W&S)

- can your 'spinster' maybe be canon asexual and/or aromantic? That'd be a really nice addition. Otherwise, the spinster thing is pretty cliche. 

- scene 8 is where I really felt the first hook into the story, with the testing out of powers for recruitment

- romance during combat? Ok, I'm curious

- G being gay? I think it'd be cool if you did it right and made sure the character was coded gay from the start (so astute readers would pick up on it)

- are the stakes high enough? From just this outline, no, but outlines don't tell much. I'm curious about the story, and that's a good thing!

12 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Overall:
This could certainly work, but I think (knowing your writing style) you'd really need to focus on getting to the plot objective as soon as possible. Any character development has to come while events are happening. If anything, my challenge to you writing would be this:

Can you throw us into the thick of things, where the group is already assembled, except for maybe one or two characters, and learn about them as they act?

This is also my overall. As always, #iagreewithmandamon

[Robinski]

19 hours ago, Mandamon said:

"This is a series of novellas; so, not (as) long to write"
--I'm coming off of writing two novellas in 5-6 months...*gasp* *wheeze*  It's basically taken all my free time.

Lol. Yes, I realise I'm being blasé here. Oh well, I like a challenge.

On magic:
is it only bones that can be used? Yes. That seems to be the case. You talk about animal bones and levels of magic use, so my mind automatically jumped to eating human bones as one of the top tiers Yup. This reminds me of another series. I can't remember the name, but I think it was urban fantasy and involved magicians eating rare animals and/or other magic users to take their magic. Might do some research to find out what it was to avoid overlap. Hmm, righto, will try and do that.

Characters:
Backgrounds and descriptions all seem fine. However, I notice you have a 4/2 male/female split, and no LGBTQ rep. What if the women start coming on to Gar, but he's after Jeh? (Edit: yes, I came up with this before reading the summary...) Lol, yes, you called that one!! I have no problem getting to that position up front.

Plot:
Scene 1: "The women in here are all ugly"
--eh, this sort of thing no longer entices me.

Yeah, not meant to be a straight forward comment, and was intended to come from Ch, but still, throw away in notes, no doubt destined to be thrown away.

Scene 2: For a novella, you're going to have to move fast. The "time passes in jail" part screams instant slow-down to me. You've shown a chase scene at the beginning, now need to keep up the pace. Maybe J runs into C (who already has a crew) getting away from being arrested, rather than being thrown into jail? dunno. Needs something to move it along.

I am very much on that. The first chapter of TCC, with Q/M tackling Gren was a reaction to slow pacing in parts of TMM. I intend to have no 'slow'/down-pace passage in this, well, very few.

"Burglary of country houses?"
--so is this a heist? That has a very definite story structure.

Appreciate that, but not intending to dwell on it too much, in order to get to the 'good' part.

Scene 3: I actually wouldn't mind a Locke Lamora fanfic...
hmm..so this still seems to be all planning. Can you combine this part with scene 2 and achieve both at one time? Or is this more character building? Still, especially in a novella, you need to do both at once.

Yup. Will seek to keep any planning to summary in a couple of paragraphs, perhaps with some dialogue, but only get into it if there is any action happening.

Scene 4: How many POVs in this? For a novella, you should restrict to 1, or maaaaybe 2.

Again, in order to test myself, I plan to go one. I realise I might need a second, but only briefly to give the reader info that J doesn't have. Also intending to go first person. As a rule, I don't like it, but I want to try it, and I think I need the urgency and directness to get what I want from this story.

Scene 5/6: There's a lot of "going to" and "learning about" in this writeup, and it's starting to sound more like a novel than a novella. You might be able to skip directly to Scene 7...

Yeah, see above. Not going to dwell on that stuff at all.

Scene 7: This is the first action since the beginning of the book...

It won't be really, if things go to plan, but I accept the point, and might tweak the outline before starting.

Scene 8/9: This is starting to get to the meat of the story. I think this can come sooner and you can cut some of the above.

I'll look at giving more info sooner. Some of those earlier scenes will not be very long, is my intention anyway.

Scene 10/11: denouement seems good...
Lol--I would like to note that I totally called Gar out before getting to this point.  
Although I'd rather see him out at the beginning and chasing after Jeh (returned or not). "Revealing" that someone is gay is sort of passe. Most pub houses (I'm guessing) are going to want the LGBTQ characters up front. @kais may be able to advise more.

Yeah, okay. I can do that. At the risk of putting my foot in it, and I'm totally fine with having an 'other' character, but it there a point at which it becomes a cliché or gimmick? Just interested and don't want to be doing it because I think I have to to be published, and be writing something that in the end I know little about.

Scene 12: Definitely can set this up as the first job in a sequence.

Questions:
-Are the stakes high enough?
--probably, but you need to start a lot closer to the meat of the story in a novella.

Yup, sold on that.

-Do the characters and their interactions sound interesting/engaging?
--yes, I think you have some well-defined character motivations. Just don't take too long to develop them.

Okey-dokey, that was part of the plan.

-Do the setting and the set-up sound interesting?
Takes too long to get there, but yes.

Part of my challenge to myself.

-What about the magic system?
I like it.

Cool, I just hope it's not already taken.

Overall:
This could certainly work, but I think (knowing your writing style) you'd really need to focus on getting to the plot objective as soon as possible. Any character development has to come while events are happening. If anything, my challenge to you writing would be this:

Can you throw us into the thick of things, where the group is already assembled, except for maybe one or two characters, and learn about them as they act?

Hmm, let me think on that. Hopefully, you will discover the answer in the first instalment. I'd love to think that would be Monday, but perhaps comes too soon, given other commitments.

Many thanks!! Great comments, as always  

<R>

[kais]

On 5/17/2018 at 8:26 AM, Mandamon said:

Although I'd rather see him out at the beginning and chasing after Jeh (returned or not). "Revealing" that someone is gay is sort of passe. Most pub houses (I'm guessing) are going to want the LGBTQ characters up front. @kais may be able to advise more.

Just saw this tag. @Mandamon is correct in that we don't want you to 'oh BTW Dumbledore is GAY,' but there are ways to do what you want to do and not be JK Rowling. I think above I suggested using some of the lesser known queer culture cues. That way he is clearly gay to those who want to bother thinking about it, but to your general reader it will still be a surprise.

For instance, if you think back to the very first time I subbed Fox, that very first chapter. Most of you could not tell S was nonbinary, while to neongrey and I, it was so overt it was practically painful. I think that's the place you want to be--clear to the community, but flying under the radar of the cis-het community. 

Unfortunately I can't help you code a gay man. You'd need a sensitivity reader/consultant for that, or to actually sit down with a few gay guys and talk to them about the internal culture. There are things like the hanky code and such have changed over time, too, so the age of your character will inform what part of the culture you want to present.

If you want to code a lesbian or an enby, you know how to reach me. *super coded gay high five*

[Robinski]

Hey Jorville,

Many thanks for looking over the outline.

On 17/05/2018 at 10:15 PM, Jorville said:

A monarchy is only as good as the monarch. If you want to have a neutral good state then you might consider more of a Roman imperial model with significant amount of power shifted to a legislative body to keep the monarchy from getting out of control. I understand this might be a little to in depth on this point but you could end up with an organization that trys to keep balance between the two branches of government or two organizations that each watch out for their respective corners. Anyway that might be a little overboard on that side of things but as someone who is interested in that sort of thing it caught my attention.

Hey, interesting suggestion. I think maybe I dug a whole for myself using the term neutral-good, which has a lot of connotations of course! Your suggestion is interesting, but might be a bit more involved than I'm looking for in this story. I completely agree with your comment about the monarch, and that's a potential source of conflict in later stories, if it goes that far.

On 17/05/2018 at 10:15 PM, Jorville said:

On the magic system: I was thinking that it was a few too may steps to get the power. Going a little nerdy on this but every time something is altered in form it loses energy. It would make a little more sense to me if the magic user could pull the energy directly from a bone, burning it up in the process of using that energy. You could still have people using ash or potion but that would then give less energy then so then solid bone would make you more powerful but would then have a built in inconvenience making it harder. That's a little more logical to me then drinking tons of magic bone juice to get more power.

Hmm, this is very interesting. I totally see your point, and like the style of you're thinking!! (You're not an engineer, are you, by any chance?) Today's task for me on DH is to flesh out the magic system (excuse the pun  ), so I'll be giving these things some serious consideration. The way I have it now, there would be a fair bit of faffing about. I need the magic system to have a cost, because it's industry best practice (  ), but if that cost is time, it could be detrimental to the story. I'll mull on this: thank you!

On 17/05/2018 at 10:15 PM, Jorville said:

Characters: The only flaw I saw was G. If he is a moral hero why would he be fighting a the monarchy for justice with the common people? To me having a classic moral hero fighting a neutral good state makes the hero look silly. might want to give him a past with his family being imprisoned wrongly or something so that he has an actual reason to dislike the benevolent monarchy.

Yeah, I haven't been back through the outline to tidy it up, so some things evolved as I went, including G* (see footnote). Also, I've been a bit free-and-easy with terminology again, I suspect. I was sort of imagining him as a 'straight man' (oh, the irony...) to J's more morally ambivalent character. But then as the outline shows, G's motivations turn out to be different from expected anyway. So, it's more of a set up than anything else, and good spot that it doesn't hang together. My readers in general will suspect him of something more.

On 17/05/2018 at 10:15 PM, Jorville said:

For the story:  I think that the animus behind the test/robbery could use some work. I feel like the we need to test this guy cause we are down a member is a little thin even with the suspected necromancy. Maybe have the necromancer be a rogue member of the C or a member of a rival faction of D, something like that.

Excellent!! This is exactly the sort of thing I always hope for on the forum. Great spot, and I do agree. It is something of a stereotype, isn't it? I'll need to work on that. Thanks for the suggestions too.  

On 17/05/2018 at 10:15 PM, Jorville said:

Last note: Another Kingdom is a narrative podcast, which will be turned into a book by author Andrew Klavan.  I know different stories can have the same title or similar but if originality is important to you you might want to think about it.

Thank you for this, and good point. Never heard of the gentleman, but sounds like and interesting story. Difficult if the coincidence is between two things that could be contemporaneous, different, potentially, if there was 10 years between them, maybe. Anyway, I'll need to think about this I'm 99% I'll change mine. Very grateful to you for point this point before I got any distance into it. Cheers!

Thank you again for reading, and for your very helpful comments. Again, big welcome to Reading Excuses. Looking forward to reading some of you stuff soon.

<R>

 

* I should have added to the welcome message--and try to remember, but don't always--to ask that people don't use character names in critiquing my stuff. You will see that several other submitters on here ask that too. It's related to publishing, and the possibility that, if your work does get published, people might find these forums by searching for character names, and that see all this material which, clearly, would not be good! So, can I ask you, if you wouldn't mind, to edit your post here and abbreviate the names of the characters, places, etc? I should have asked in my original post, sorry.

You'll see that same thing on other threads, certainly with both Kais and Mandamon (who are published). It's a good habit to get into, and I think it is now our default. (Hey, @Silk, do you think you might consider amending the guidelines to highlight the desire to have character and any other unique author 'created' names abbreviate?)

[Jorville]

10 hours ago, Robinski said:

 

You're not an engineer, are you, by any chance? 

* I should have added to the welcome message--and try to remember, but don't always--to ask that people don't use character names in critiquing my stuff. You will see that several other submitters on here ask that too. It's related to publishing, and the possibility that, if your work does get published, people might find these forums by searching for character names, and that see all this material which, clearly, would not be good! So, can I ask you, if you wouldn't mind, to edit your post here and abbreviate the names of the characters, places, etc? I should have asked in my original post, sorry.

 

While not an actual Engineer, I am a nuclear operator for US submarines. This means I spend my time in the navy in a super technical field where the principles of thermodynamics are pretty important, so its kinda stuck in my brain.

Thanks for the heads up I will edit my post to reflect the character names issue.. 

[Robinski]

On 18/05/2018 at 5:17 AM, kais said:

- I much prefer everything being morally grey than having an actual villain - Check!

- can we just add fridging to the avoidance list now, to help educate future generations? - Yes we can. Thanks for the reminder  

- bone magic is both interesting, and grounded enough that you won't have to completely remake the wheel. I think it could work! - Excellent!

- burning bones sounds good. Boil the bones and you get pyridine, and then you're in my book. Crossover potential! - Ooh. I'll not stray too close.

- your characters suffer from white default. Skin tone the people! - Hmm..., yes. I'll need to work on this, as the geography is such that it is majority white territory, but that's not an excuse, simply a challenge. Actually, it certainly would open up more stereotype-bashing if I made one of the MCs a person of colour. Good call (as ever). Ch is the obvious one, as her name has a different derivation from the others. In fact, yes, that's a done deal, as Ch was too close by far (  ) to Sab in Rep. of Thieves, which I just finished reading. 

- oooh, this is W&S land! Yay! -  

- (it does sound a bit like the plot of W&S) - It does, and I am conscious of this. My challenge then, in part is to make it different. The four portags in W&S were never really a recognisable group (In my mind, anyway!!). There is a different dynamic in these characters, but some of the beats are similar, certainly. I'll carry on and see how it lands. Good to be conscious of the danger going in, certainly.

- can your 'spinster' maybe be canon asexual and/or aromantic? That'd be a really nice addition. Otherwise, the spinster thing is pretty cliche. - Hmm, noted. I don't see why not. I didn't push the bounds when scribbling her background down. (I'm loving this spitballing before starting to write the story. Might just have to post all my ideas here before starting to write!!)

- scene 8 is where I really felt the first hook into the story, with the testing out of powers for recruitment - Yeah, @Mandamon--quite rightly--has challenged me to get that (more) upfront.

- romance during combat? Ok, I'm curious - Ha-ha. Let's see how that translates onto the page.

- G being gay? I think it'd be cool if you did it right and made sure the character was coded gay from the start (so astute readers would pick up on it) - Yes. I'm sold on this now. I must do some research on that.

- are the stakes high enough? From just this outline, no, but outlines don't tell much. I'm curious about the story, and that's a good thing! - Yay  

This is also my overall. As always, #iagreewithmandamon - Me too  

Thank you, Kais, for your comments--always challenging and always on point.

[Robinski]

17 hours ago, Jorville said:

While not an actual Engineer, I am a nuclear operator for US submarines. This means I spend my time in the navy in a super technical field where the principles of thermodynamics are pretty important, so its kinda stuck in my brain.

Thanks for the heads up I will edit my post to reflect the character names issue.. 

Wow! I feel like that trumps (no connotations intended, it was a word before it was a president) 'engineer'.

Thank you so much for editing your post. Much appreciated  

And again, great comments on my outline. I was just collating all the comments. I just love how I can feel my story getting better when you guys feedback on this stuff

[Robinski]

On 18/05/2018 at 8:44 PM, kais said:

I think above I suggested using some of the lesser known queer culture cues. That way he is clearly gay to those who want to bother thinking about it, but to your general reader it will still be a surprise.

Thanks, Kais. I am indebted to you (again) for this advice  

[Silk]

@RobinskiI can certainly do that--will do it later this morning. Good call!

[AviatrixAway]

I'm just starting out here, so my first notes will be brief while I get the hang of things. In answer to your questions:

Do the stakes seem high enough? They do, but it seems like it takes a little while to up them. 

Do the characters and their interactions sound interesting/engaging? They do. Honestly, the most interesting character to me right now is Garrent. I kind of love the idea that he could be coded (for those who are looking) as gay, and I enjoy the twist (for those who aren't looking). I'd kind of like for his interaction with Jehla to create some kind of sexual tension. Is saying that too directive? Just as Garrent could be coded as gay throughout the story, Jehla could be coded as not knowing he's bi. I like the idea that while he's coming up with excuses to hang out with Chari, and while he resents Garrent, he spends just a little too much time thinking of the how he resents Garrent.

Do the setting and set-up sound interesting? I think that as long as the set-up progresses quickly, it will be interesting. The setting sounds good, and it makes sense that this monarchy is benevolent if you're trying to avoid cliches. Personally, I'm a little bit of a sucker for a big bad, but things can be more complex and nuanced if you're able to paint the majority of people as morally grey, and still have the reader root for the main.  

The magic system? I like the idea of the magic system. It's grounded, and it seems to exploit both the ephemeral spark of life in living things and the strength of minerals by being based around bones. 

[Robinski]

Hello @AviatrixAway, and welcome to Reading Excuses! 

Great to have your comments, thank you. On the timeline, yes, the outline doesn't really present that too well, but I am conscious of taking too long to get to the heart of the plot. It's very much something I'm trying to improve on.

Your comments on G, J, Ch are very interesting. I'm not yet sold on coding vs. actually just showing clearly that G is gay from the outset and letting the sexual politics plan from there. We will see.

All cool, and very helpful. Thank you

p.s. Can I ask you, if you wouldn't mind, to edit your post and abbreviate the character names? We've been doing it informally for a while now, but the guidelines have just changed to make it official.

On 19/05/2018 at 8:07 AM, Robinski said:

It's related to publishing, and the possibility that, if your work does get published, people might find these forums by searching for character names, and that see all this material which, clearly, would not be good! So, can I ask you, if you wouldn't mind, to edit your post here and abbreviate the names of the characters, places, etc?

p.p.s. Great to have you on the forum  

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

On 5/17/2018 at 5:26 PM, Mandamon said:

This reminds me of another series. I can't remember the name, but I think it was urban fantasy and involved magicians eating rare animals and/or other magic users to take their magic. Might do some research to find out what it was to avoid overlap.

I think I remember that as a book of the week on WX, if we're thinking of the same thing it's California Bones by Greg Van Eekhout (pronounced ache-how-t)

[Robinski]

39 minutes ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

I think I remember that as a book of the week on WX, if we're thinking of the same thing it's California Bones by Greg Van Eekhout (pronounced ache-how-t)

Thanks for this, Eagle, and great to hear from you!

Reading the synopsis, certainly the basic premise is similar/same. Maybe I'll burn an audible credit and listen to the story, just to ensure I keep my idea, and magic system, different. I've been doing some planning and detailing of it, and I think I'm off to a good start. For one thing, I plan to keep mine fairly close to reality and real-world science as I can--apart from the massive handy-wavy initial premise, of course!! My story is very unlikely to have magic creatures in it. For another thing, I think the tone of my story will be very different to his: I'm going for gritty and irreverent realism. For example, I see there is a question on Goodreads as to whether he has a gay character, which he does, but it's brushed over. My story has a gay character too, but this will not be a passing facet of the story.

More irritating to me was that van Eekhout's story has a character named M-th. FFS! Double whammy!! 

Thanks again, @Eagle of the Forest Path  

p.s. Oh, and GvE's story is a heist. At least mine is a burglary, not the same thing at all!!!

Edited May 23, 2018 by Robinski

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Thanks for this, Eagle, and great to hear from you!

No problem, simple google search (la brea tar pits magic book).

Quote

More irritating to me was that van Eekhout's story has a character named M-th. FFS! Double whammy!! 

Huh, I actually hadn't read the full synopsis yet. That is bothersome.

Here's some actual feedback from me (mostly questions though):

Magic
- spell levels -> are the levels solely dependent on the type of bone, or more on the amount of energy? i.e. if eating one chicken bone allows you to cast one lvl1 spell, would eating two chicken bones allow a lvl2 spell or just two lvl1s?
- unicorn horn -> would that include narwhal tusks, which vikings sold as unicorn horns (proving that the proverbial Nigerian prince isn't just a modern problem)?
- extraction -> is the burning etc. required, or is it more of a practical issue? could they just munch on chicken bones in a pinch (beware of splinters)?
-> -> just read @Jorville 's comment on this and I disagree with his premise: the extraction could be considered as a type of distillation, getting rid of the useless parts of the bone while keeping the active component.

Setting
- I joined RX after you'd finished with W&S, so what's the tech level here? Since it's based on the UK, is it Tudor, regency, Victorian?

Scene 1 -> I'm assuming from this that magic is illegal without some sort of permit. Or is it the dumpster diving that's the problem here?

Scene 3 -> If you want to avoid a LL fanfic, maybe avoid the ageing spinster spymaster?

Scene 4 -> Why did D pick J? Because he's the only mage in the crew? (edit: aaah, just got to scene 8...)

Scene 5 -> Did G, as the planner, have a reason for choosing this particular house? The storm feels sort of deus ex machina to me, could be fun to have the crew engineer a disaster they can clean up afterward. Or imply that D had government mages cause the storm? (edit: again, scene 8)

Scene 7 -> Are they covering up something with the staged fight?

Scene 8 -> Hold up, didn't you say G has no hidden agenda? I know you also said unreliable narrator, but isn't that going a bit far to even do that in the outline?

Scene 9 and 10 -> textbook example of the scene-sequel format. 

Scene 11 -> I don't see why this can't just be part of 10.

Overall this looks promising.
I did notice that basically all the interactions are J and C, with a little G and D thrown in. P and K don't show up in the outline at all, so what's their role in the story, besides filling out the crew roster?

[Robinski]

Awesome comments, Eagle--thank you so much for looking over. Delving in...

51 minutes ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

Magic
- spell levels -> are the levels solely dependent on the type of bone, or more on the amount of energy? i.e. if eating one chicken bone allows you to cast one lvl1 spell, would eating two chicken bones allow a lvl2 spell or just two lvl1s?
- unicorn horn -> would that include narwhal tusks, which vikings sold as unicorn horns (proving that the proverbial Nigerian prince isn't just a modern problem)?
- extraction -> is the burning etc. required, or is it more of a practical issue? could they just munch on chicken bones in a pinch (beware of splinters)?
...the extraction could be considered as a type of distillation, getting rid of the useless parts of the bone while keeping the active component.

Spell levels--good question, not quite at that level of detail yet. I'll see how it emerges as I write.

Unicorn horn--  good point. I think I said somewhere that fairytales were a thing.

Extraction--yes. I need to avoid a length Breaking B-d cooking process, unless he can back powder with him and inject, which is sort of where I was headed, but I need to balance cost of using magic with narrative/story/plot flow(pace), of course.

51 minutes ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

Setting
- I joined RX after you'd finished with W&S, so what's the tech level here? Since it's based on the UK, is it Tudor, Regency, Victorian?

Tech level--certainly not Victorian. Probably somewhere between Tudor and Regency, I guess(?). I'm not tremendously well acquainted with the tech levels of specific historical periods (although no doubt I should be). 

51 minutes ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

Scene 1 -> I'm assuming from this that magic is illegal without some sort of permit. Or is it the dumpster diving that's the problem here? - Neither, exactly. All will be revealed.

Scene 3 -> If you want to avoid a LL fanfic, maybe avoid the ageing spinster spymaster? - LOL, oops!! Totally, but she's not all that aged. I'm planning ahead to the movie. There's a real issue with female actors of a certain age not having any decent roles. I've modified the chr after Kais's comment.

Scene 5 -> Did G, as the planner, have a reason for choosing this particular house? The storm feels sort of deus ex machina to me, could be fun to have the crew engineer a disaster they can clean up afterward. Or imply that D had government mages cause the storm? (edit: again, scene 8) - Ooh, interesting. I will consider that.

Scene 7 -> Are they covering up something with the staged fight? - Yes; it's not a big detail though.

Scene 8 -> Hold up, didn't you say G has no hidden agenda? I know you also said unreliable narrator, but isn't that going a bit far to even do that in the outline? - Yes. The outline evolved as I was writing it, so some bits in the first half may be inconsistent now. I should go back and revise, but I've started writing now, so that's less likely.

Scene 9 and 10 -> textbook example of the scene-sequel format. - Good(?).

Scene 11 -> I don't see why this can't just be part of 10. - May well be.

Overall this looks promising.
I did notice that basically all the interactions are J and C, with a little G and D thrown in. P and K don't show up in the outline at all, so what's their role in the story, besides filling out the crew roster? - Fair to say that are secondary to the triangle of J,C&G, however they will get things to do.

Super comments. Thank you  

[Mandamon]

6 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

I think I remember that as a book of the week on WX, if we're thinking of the same thing it's California Bones by Greg Van Eekhout (pronounced ache-how-t)

 

4 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

simple google search (la brea tar pits magic book).

That's the one! Thanks @Eagle of the Forest Path. I couldn't remember enough of the book to even google it.

[Robinski]

4 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I couldn't remember enough of the book to even google it.

That's a target I might be able to beat  

[QuirkyGrandpa]

Nobody taught me any patience, so I logged into hubbies email this morning so I could see what everyone was writing early .

I went back and read over what I said and realized I wrote a whole lot of conjecture and did a lot of theorizing, daydreaming and wondering. You don't need to answer my questions or thoughts; I'd much rather be left wondering for when I actually read it. It's just there so you know what my thoughts might be as a reader. I hope it is somewhat helpful.

Title: Excellent title. I immediately wonder why AK has -anything- to do with a 'DH'. This intrigue would make me want to pick it up and at least read the back cover for that sneak peek or try at least the first page or two.
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Challenging stereotypes - R.L.S. likes to say that there are three parts to every story. The beginning, the middle, and the twist. For him, that is the entire plot, but when it comes to stereotypes I love it when someone takes one, has it grow in its environment, and then twists it into something else >:3. I'm not saying to trick your readers, but it never hurts to throw a curve ball every once in a while.
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Animal Parts - This is great, cause it can have so many consequences. Over farming or poaching, abuse, as well as people hoarding certain creatures, or breeding them for profit. View on pets, theft of pets. And of course, extinction. I love that Archy and Gravedigs are the big pursuits going on. Consider the implications of cannibalism, leftover meat, slave trade, murder and overall diet of the locals. Jails? Notorious for rats in some cases would be an issue if the prisoners could get a hold of one and manage to use it. Of course, it wouldn't be all that powerful if they did manage to (since you already stated that the common kind aren't as powerful). Just some things to consider!

I also enjoy that they have to take the time to collect these things instead of magic just being a wave of the hand. 
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Characters -  Almost everyone is gigantic. 6'1m, 5'10f, 6'5m, 5'11m, 5'9f. Even P at 5'6f is slightly above (5'9 is average for a male, 5'4 for a female)  However, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with this, you could even make it a part of your story. Perhaps the large amount of meat they eat? or the magic itself? Or maybe big people want to hang with the big people cause its a dog eats dog world out there.
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Scene one - Has a good start. Directly into trouble are my favorite beginnings because it keeps you engaged.
Scene two - J jumps into the fire, and instead of getting burned he sells the world charcoal. I like that he gets caught but still finds a way to turn this to their advantage (if I'm reading that right). I feel strongly that this scene is important in that it will set the tone for J's and C's relationship from this point out. 
Scene three - This part is important as it defines how these characters think and act to a greater degree. They're planning something, and each one is going to bring an element to the crock pot that will make a good story. At first it sounds like G is taking the biggest risk, hanging with the 'stys & wfs' fresh out of jail when he has a high moral character, but I feel there will be a good balance here since everyone else is at risk of being scrutinized by the monarchy now.
Scene four - Now things are getting fun! From what I understand, everyone is planning to back stab G, C probably trusts J too much, J who thinks he's so tough is just going to double cross all of them but might be having second thoughts concerning C, and D who gave her word on behalf of the state may or may not be trying to just get rid of all of them in hopes of restoring her own family title. I feel excited about this alone. Your ability to write these characters and the undercurrents happening without giving too much away will determine whether this story is a hit or not. I would like to note that I'm not seeing a lot of movement from K & P at this point.
Scene five - I feel a little cheated that this is the first scene where you start to mention the magic. I'll be disappointed as a reader if you don't immerse us in your unique magic before now, but obviously this is just an outline. Also, a storm? Just when they're plotting away? Terribly convenient. Perhaps you could make it a little less so by having one or two of them having to get in another way? This way, they all don't just waltz in.There are plenty of other workers, they might want the biggest and strongest and turn up their nose on tiny P, or all the positions get filled and someone has to improvise. This is all just conjecture though to help you think, discard as you will.
Scene six - J is being put on the spot, any deviation from his course now could lead into himself getting in trouble. In a way, his path is set. Does he feel any guilt? Is he worried D will back stab him anyway? I feel good about the tension here. Your readers are going to assume that J can't possible betray them all! So they will assume he is going to betray D instead. Then you shake things up and everything goes to plan in the later scenes.
Scene seven - This scene brings me back to scene 5. Why did they all need to go? Nothing is wrong if they all do. It could be because they want more eyes, or they don't trust each other, need the money or nobody wants to volunteer to be the one stuck cleaning all day so they all have to do it. Just some food for thought. It would also make me immensely happy if one of them stole extra food and pay, and then got chewed out by part of the group for doing so >:3. Moving on to the fight, I feel like with C volunteering to fight G, and also the previous mention that C has a soft spot for him, that there might be a bit of a love story going on here. This could better influence J's personality and his feelings toward both G, jealousy, and C, affection if you wanted. You also stated that: 'J see's the game C and G are playing', Not entirely sure what you mean there, but perhaps that is what you were already going for. I like that you have J questioning things here about the guards, and lack of dogs. That tension is going to make the next scene that much more enjoyable, and your readers will be begging for him to open up to his companions while he proceeds to not listen and lead them to disaster.
Scene eight - 'You know it won't work right? It never just works.' - Inquisitor of the Inquisition. Scene 8 and we are in trouble again. All those missing guards and lack of dogs were hidden adepts. I love this. I feel its a good fit in to the more powerful side of magic, before this, we're just seeing ruffians use it. I also love that G is an agent of D. Your readers may have been led to believe that G was a loyal member of the group so long as his morals weren't trod on. They likely have been super worried about him being betrayed. Now they are thrown for a loop when G ends up being far more clever than they assumed. If G smirks at J in the book I'm going to mentally punch him in the face. J is pissed, and if he gets separated from C by G he's going to be worried he's brought her and the rest of them all to their deaths. The questions here is if he's more worried about her, or himself.
Scene nine - Enter the boss fight! Que one liners, and fantastic future fan art! 

Can I kiss the people who made the Forums save writing? Cause my browser just crashed but everything is still here 

Scene ten - They went from being in jail, to being a team, to being a good team, to getting their asses handed to them and nearly dying. Now the stakes are higher than ever and J is the only one that can take this next step. I'm definitely interested in what J is going to do and I assume it will be thrilling since he is a thrill seeker, but what will happen to everyone else? I worry that this scene is one where its easy to drop the ball. If you're going to get clever, it's going to have to be good.
Scene eleven - I worry that this is almost too simple. They just happen to work so well together that the college just gives up all its traditions to let them stick together? If you do this, there has to be some excellent reasoning behind it. I actually think G being gay is funny and works well with the rest of the book if you play it carefully. Especially with my earlier thought that J might be jealous of G and C liking one another. A sudden hard kiss on the lips that is more a quick tease seems more appropriate for the build up. Its a funny way to just say 'I was never interested in her, what were you worried about?' I imagine J would be shocked, and might try to blow it off as the tough guy, or might exaggerate being grossed out (Not cause its gay, cause -G- is KISSING him). Really, he'd just be relieved. I'm not thrilled with him being gung-ho about a kiss with G. Especially when there is already a dynamic with him liking C. I feel it takes away from the build up of J and C's relationship, but if you wanted in the next book for him to be gay maybe you could sex swap C & G but keep the personalities. End it with C (as a guy) taking a chance and kissing J. J is surprised C likes him and not G (as a girl) and C is pleasantly surprised that J likes him as well. That is all up to you and who your target audience is. Sticking with things as they are, I imagine C would be highly amused and would bet my gold that she knew all along. It would be extra amusing if in the next book she assumed the two of them were gay and was still oblivious to J liking her, allowing for another build up of their relationship. Again, I am not seeing K or P anywhere. It's J, G, and C with D watching them. Maybe you are killing them off, or they are background characters or not part of the team directly.
Scene twelve - Walking and talking? J is a thrill seeker, and since the book started with trouble, I think you should end it with trouble on a laughing note. Imply the books will continue with J getting in more trouble and his friends with him. J learning something during his training that might make him take off into trouble might work and goes right into the 5 of them going off on a mission.in Scene 11 you say 'four of them as a team', was this a typo? In this scene its back to five. 

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Questions
- Stakes are high enough
- K & P seem to be absent but their profiles sound interesting. D is kind of a mystery but I don't think we need to know everything about everyone. Everyone else is good.
- Setting is 'ok'. It's a city market, jail and an estate/college.but they can be made more interesting with a good plot, and descriptive details.
- I like the magic system but don't be afraid to experiment with alternatives. Using the magic should be interesting to the reader but feel natural for the characters.
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Escape - That is disgusting and brutal. I love it, but you'll have to find a careful balance for how they do the burning, Why not just burn someone alive where they stand if its so easy? Also imagine a black market for fingers all of a sudden. Ewww! And would the city smell of rot in some places?


Overall I think your outline is pretty strong. Like you said, you already know that wandering off with the details is your weakness, so try your best to stay on course which is always easier said than done.

[industrialistDragon]

 

There's not a lot to say about this that hasn't already been said, for me. 

I will provide a counter-argument to @kais's  ace/aro suggestion, because... there's kind of more to it than that. Regular people... can just simply not find anyone in their social circles attractive. Can be forced out of the marriage pool against their will by social or societal pressures. Can decide marriage isn't worth the baggage that comes with it. Making the spinster ace ... is kind of a not great stereotype. If the asexuality is just an aspect of her character and she decides to remain unmarried for other reasons, that's one thing, but if it is being used as the reason for her spinsterhood (and she's bitter about it like it is on the outline. Like the stereotype of a spinster is), it's just a diluted version of the bury your gays trope. If you do decide to use asexuality in this work, please check out some of the ace/aro education resources that're around the 'net. It's an area or sexuality that's difficult for most people to even contemplate, and there're a lot of not-great stereotypes that get incorporated into even otherwise good works because of it.

Sometimes I think older women characters get made into spinsters/maiden aunts as an excuse to put little thought into their backgrounds. If they were never married, then there are no pesky husbands, exes, children, or other connections to worry about, plus the author doesn't have to worry about fitting the woman into society and thereby can elide the issue you mentioned about women "of a certain age" becoming invisible...  Of course she's not prominent, she's a spinster! Personally, I'd make my spymaster the lady who throws the best parties... 

[kais]

1 hour ago, industrialistDragon said:

I will provide a counter-argument to @kais's  ace/aro suggestion, because... there's kind of more to it than that.

I bow to @industrialistDragon in all areas regarding this. 

[QuirkyGrandpa]

I think both @kais and @industrialistDragon have made some great points.

However, I'd like to point out that D has been a prominent character in book 1, and one of the benefits of having very little background with a potentially well regarded character is that when book 2 rolls around you get to expand more on those characters. They're like little hidden gems that were overlooked previously. 

Personally, I love that D is sort of just a mysterious, graceful and elegant spinster. She could literally grow in any direction. For all we know, the 'bitter spinster' is just a cover for a revenge sworn ex-lover, or she hasn't met the right man/women yet, or a number of other backgrounds could develop as the story progresses without her ever being directly in the limelight.

Sometimes the potential we leave untouched ripens into something even better later.

[Robinski]

7 hours ago, QuirkyGrandpa said:

I went back and read over what I said and realized I wrote a whole lot of conjecture and did a lot of theorizing, daydreaming and wondering. You don't need to answer my questions or thoughts; I'd much rather be left wondering for when I actually read it. It's just there so you know what my thoughts might be as a reader. I hope it is somewhat helpful.

Awesome! Thank you so much for reading, and these very extensive comments. I love it  

I do have the slight problem that I said I would submit this week, and it's Friday  , however next week's roster is full so, I'm going to come back here after I've submitted (horribly late, but quite short) and reply, but you might wish to consider what I'm about to post and see if it answers any of those question...