Diomedes

[OB] The Recreance and Odium`s Children

30 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

do think that the destruction was intentional on Odium's part. I believe that he foresaw that the destruction would lead to the exodus to Roshar, and thought to use the events in order to facilitate his attack on Honor and Cultivation.

Yes! I think he foresaw everything up to the present day, when he intervened on Ashyn. Whatever role he may have played there.

On a different note, the Stonewards and Windrunners broke their Oath at Feverstone Keep, when "fighting was intense" hence the feeling of betrayal attributed to the Recreance. However, that means Feverstone Keep happened before Bo-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned and the Singers were stripped off their forms, because fighting was still very much going on. At least the Bondsmiths were still fighting after Feverstone Keep. Probably there were quite a few orders still fighting. 

This might have been said already elsewhere but I could not find it.

How could the Singers even wage war in the false Desolation against Humans and Radiants without the Fused to guide them?

I think they engaged in a nasty guerilla warfare using, perhaps, even terroristic methods. Thing is, this type of asymmetrical warfare quickly persuades the more powerful side that horrible means are necessary; Meaning: Killing noncombatants to weaken, to terrify the enemy or just because you hate those Parsh sooo much. I imagine a large, genocidal massacre had happened before Feverstone Keep, Stonewards and Windrunners had helped, without knowing it, to commit it. This triggered the Oathbreaking of the two orders. The other orders carried on, until something else happened. However, they succeded in binding Bo-Ado-Mishram.    

This would explain why the Thrill was not imprisoned, the Windrunners were no longer around to do it.  

 

 

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17 hours ago, Diomedes said:

This would explain why the Thrill was not imprisoned, the Windrunners were no longer around to do it.  

Explain this, if you would. Why are Windrunners necessary?

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On 5/19/2018 at 4:43 PM, Calderis said:

And as to the manner in whicg they broke the Oaths... I don't think it could have happened differently. What we saw at Feverstone keep was only two orders of Radiants. The Windrunners and Stonewards, and I believe that action was taken specifically in order to break their oaths. 

It is not enough for the Radiants to have just said "this isn't right, I'm done." the bond had to be broken, and in order to do so an action had to be taken. I believe that Feverstone was enacted as it was specifically to hand the blades over to mortals. It was this act itself that broke the Oaths. An act of giving others the power to kill for the Windrunners in direct opposition of their oaths to protect and a undeniable symbol of giving up for the Stonewards in opposition to their "standing when others fall."

I think that across Roshar, other orders were performing similarly tailored actions to their own oaths, because what happened at Feverstone would not have worked for every order.

I do think this is a cool idea, but it seems to not really fit with how Kaladin loses his bond to Syl.  It's very clearly the conflicting promises that Kaladin makes to Dalinar and Graves that causes the problem.  Kaladin doesn't have to actually act against Elhokar -- he never explicitly does, that I recall.  It's all in the words, the broken promises.

Heck, when does Kaladin actually completely lose his bond?  When he's risking his life protecting someone.  If Kaladin's bond can break at the very instant that he's 100% embodying the Windrunner ideals, it's really hard to imagine that the Radiants of old would have needed to do anything nearly so drastic as intentionally leaving their Shards to provoke a massacre.

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On 5/22/2018 at 7:56 AM, Diomedes said:

Yes! I think he foresaw everything up to the present day, when he intervened on Ashyn. Whatever role he may have played there.

The Stormfather says Odium can see the future but his vision is murky (or something like that) so it's probably not too likely he could see so far with such clarity.

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On 22.5.2018 at 5:28 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Explain this, if you would. Why are Windrunners necessary?

Sorry, I was referring to this theory:

Or specifically to this post by @Rainier

"I'd like to double-back to the idea that each Herald is associated with one of the Unmade. Let's start.

Taln is exempt. He is the greatest and never broken. Odium has no hold on him and he is unrelated to the Unmade.

Ishar, as patron of Bondsmiths and creator of the Oathpact, is connected to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Like Dalinar refilled the gemstones with stormlight so does BAM provide stormlight.

Jezrien, as patron of Windrunners, is associated with Nergaoul and the Thrill. The blubbering mess he's reduced to is similar to what happens when the Thrill recedes.

Nale, as patron and member of Skybreakers, is associated with Ashertmarnn. His lack of emotions are found in the wild and base emotions of The Heart of the Revel.

Chanarach, as patron of Dustrbringers, is associated with Chemoarish because it's called the Dustmother. I've got nothing else.

Vedel, as patron of Edgedancers, is associated with Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. As Vedel was known for the essence of Light, so is Re-Shephir made of blackness.

Pailiah, as patron of Truthwatchers, has to be connected to Moelach. Her powers of foresight are corrupted and distributed as the soul splits in three.

Shalash, as patron of Lightweavers, is associated with Sja-anat, Taker of Secrets. Where do you think those secrets Lightweavers tell go? They get taken in by Sja-anat.

Battar, as patron of Elsecallers, is associated with Dai-gonarthis, mysterious and mythical.

Kalak, as patron of the Willshapers, is associated with Yelig-nar who engages his host in a battle of wills over who will control the vessel and the power of the Unmade."

Bo-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned by a Bondsmith, Melishi. Shallan said the Unmade at Urithiru was imprisoned by a Lightweaver (not a Bondsmith), an Order that knows this Unmade intimatly. Every Order could know one Unmade well and could thus imprison one Unmade. Bondsmiths Bo-Ado-Mishram, Lightweavers Re-Sephir (the Unmade at Urithiru). Or maybe each order knows two orders well and can imprison them (Lightweavers Re-Sephir and  Sja-anat). Or an order can imprison one and one is it`s cryptonite, I am speculating here. 

What is clear however, that you need intimate knowledge of the Unmade to imprison them. Dalinar did imprison the Thrill not by being a Bondsmith but by being connected to the Thrill since his Youth. Now, the fact that no Windrunners were around would neatly explain why there was nobody, who could imprison it. Only they had intimate knowledge of it.

           

 

 

 

 

 

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