Diomedes

[OB] The Recreance and Odium`s Children

30 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself:

Quote

It was not only the truth of humankind`s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed one before. OB. p. 1051.

The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense.

A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar.  

B:  There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will.

Therefore, behold my grand theory!

The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we?

Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn 

Spoiler

as Ruin and Preservation created humans on Scadrial

Edit: This is definitly not true as seen by WoB below quoted by RShara. 

Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian:

Quote

“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son

“I know you, Dalinar “(…) He smiled again, a paternal expression.

OB. p. 550

 Poor man, Odium said (…) There isn`t that better?

Taravangian (…)This is remarkable (…) You did this without access to Fortune or the spiritual realm? Truly incredible! OB p. 1215.

It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side.

We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s.    

Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade.

The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised.

And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about….

 

I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs.

1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor.

2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two.

This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium.

Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.  

Edited by Diomedes
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Diomedes said:

In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself:

The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense.

A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar.  

B:  There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will.

Therefore, behold my grand theory!

The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we?

Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn

  Reveal hidden contents

as Ruin and Preservation created humans on Scadrial

 Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian:

It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side.

We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s.    

Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade.

The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised.

And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about….

 

I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs.

1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor.

2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two.

This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium.

Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.  

 

Sorry, the humans were not created by Odium. Also, they didn't really "bring" Odium to Roshar. He just kinda messed around with them on Ashyn, and went on to Roshar at about the same time.

As for why the Radiants broke their Oaths the way they did, I think that it was necessary in order to actually break their Oaths. I mean, a formal Oath Breaking isn't really necessary. As Kaladin says, once they decided their Orders were wrong, then giving up their Shards is just a formality. And also, if they truly believed this was the way to protect the planet, is that really violating their Oaths? So they had to break their Oaths the way they did, ensuring that their Shards would be used by people to wreak mayhem, as the only way to actually break them.  Does that make sense? I'm tired and rambling a bit. I covered this in my "The spren were in on it" thread below.

Some WoBs on the matter

Quote

Lirins hand

On Roshar, do the humans predate the two Shards coming there, or did they come with the Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

The humans were...not created by Honor, Cultivation or Odium.

source
Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source

And my theory:

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, RShara said:

Sorry, the humans were not created by Odium. Also, they didn't really "bring" Odium to Roshar. He just kinda messed around with them on Ashyn, and went on to Roshar at about the same time

ah, ok but this is not really an integral part of my theory. I just assumed it would make the most sense. Odium still has a special bond to Humans.

Quote

And also, if they truly believed this was the way to protect the planet, is that really violating their Oaths?

That`s exactly what the Stormfather says though, I mean literally: 

Quote

The ancient Radiants didn`t abandon their oats out of pettiness, They tried to protect the world. OB p. 1052

Then he gives actually more evidence for my theory: 

Quote

I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. OB p. 1052

He blames them for being humans, being passionate people, that will, neccesarily, create a corrupt organization in the long term.

I am totally on board with your theory that the spren are in on it. This is quite compatible with my theory.

Edit: I have read through the thread of your theory. There seemed to be quite a lot of people, who still thought the Recreance was a massive plothole. Maybe my additional explanation could answer some of their concerns?

Edited by Diomedes
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Diomedes said:

B:  There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will.

Bear in mind that that order is also bound by the Law, something the other 9 are not limited by. And their Herald prevents them from attaining the 4th or 5th Ideal, yet another limit the others didn't have(and a limit I'm puzzled by. What is he preventing, when he is at Ideal 5 and seems fine?) They were also under much more control thanks to Nalan's oversight, something the other Heralds neglected to do. They haven't destroyed the world, but they are also much less free to act than the others were.

Also, the Recreance was at most 2,500 years ago. The time limit is much shorter than you think.


And... I also have a theory of my own

(Bottom half of linked post) From my understanding of events, the Recreance makes perfect sense even before considering Odium, and that makes me feel like he wasn't involved in it. I don't see holes in the plot where "Odium's influence" would need to be fit in. The biggest things that I think he contributed were unintentional: delaying the next Desolation while struggling to break Taln gave the world time to fall apart on its own, and Honor's ravings near the end seem similar to Preservation's mental collapse near the end when Ruin was smothering him.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

And their Herald prevents them from attaining the 4th or 5th Ideal, yet another limit the others didn't have(and a limit I'm puzzled by. What is he preventing, when he is at Ideal 5 and seems fine?)

Where is this mentioned?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Where is this mentioned?

Nalan straight up says that he's the only one to have reached the 5th ideal in centuries.
I'm pretty sure there's a mention that the Skybreakers stop at Ideal 3(not that I know where).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Nalan straight up says that he's the only one to have reached the 5th ideal in centuries.
I'm pretty sure there's a mention that the Skybreakers stop at Ideal 3(not that I know where).

The masters become masters upon reaching the 4th ideal. Nalan is the only one that reached the 5th, but there's no mention that I know of of the 5th being forbidden to the others, just hard.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

@The One Who Connects I like your theory a lot. I think that is how the corruption of the orders was going to happen. They began aligning themselves with their respective homelands and infighting between KR was inevitable.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Also, the Recreance was at most 2,500 years ago. The time limit is much shorter than you think.

 Yeah, but the order of the Skybreakers is older than even 4000 years. In all that time they, or any other order, did not destroy Roshar.    

Maybe it is infighting between different groups of Surgebinders that causes cosmic destruction? That happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar without a common enemy. Skybreakers have no infighting because they are bound to the law and Nale is running a tight ship. 

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't see holes in the plot where "Odium's influence" would need to be fit in.

He does not need to be involved in these events, but he easily could have. My theory does not rest on Odium`s influence. It would be just as powerful, if we got option 1). Humans are drawn by their passionate (infighting) nature into the arms of their metaphorical Father Odium. That is why he is so fond of Humans: They behave in an odious/ passionate way.   

Your theory does not adress point A); Why couldn`t the orders be continued without Nahel-bonds? They would have a monopoly on Shards. I think the only possible explanation is that they saw themselves becoming Odium`s tool in the long run. As is the Vorin church , the Shin elders, the Azish elite, etc. That is why their order had to be disbanded.   

  

Edited by Diomedes
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Diomedes said:

Your theory does not adress point A); Why couldn`t the orders be continued without Nahel-bonds? They would have a monopoly on Shards.

A Radiant taking sides in a conflict has nothing to do with their powers, and everything to do with what they represent. These paragraphs of my theory hardly change:

Quote

Imagine if Tukar invaded Emuli back then. Would an Emuli-born Windrunner be Oathbound to "protect" their people? A KR on the battlefield would be just as destructive as Blackthorn Dalinar, if not more, so Tukari casualty numbers might get pretty high. What happens when a Tukari-born Radiant learns that one of his fellows was slaughtering his people? [..] On a geopolitical scale, what happens when world leaders see the KR appearing to be "taking sides" in conflicts? The only safe play for the organization as a whole would be to not get involved, but that's gonna strain ties between the people of Emul/Tukar and their native KR.

Individual Radiants are gonna have to decide between their Organization and their Homelands. The KR as a whole are gonna be forced to decide between their Neutrality and their Unity. What about the Squires, who aren't bound by Oaths yet? Individual KR of the same order have always been able to disagree on issues and oaths, and this will only make it worse. Look at Kaladin's dilemma in early Oathbringer, and imagine every Windrunner going though that: "Is it right to defend my people? What if they are the aggressors in this battle? Do I switch back and forth based on who's attacking and who's defending? What about wars in countries that I have no ties to? Lots of countries are at war, and I can't be everywhere at once.. where do I go?" Dustbringers arguing internally and externally over who's authority to be "obedient" to: their nation, their king/queen, the Bondsmith, their order, etc.. Bondsmiths struggling to maintain some semblance of unity as everything(orders, nations, peoples) crumbles around them. The list goes on..

Whether or not they have powers, they'd still have Blade and Plate. Without Oaths, the aforementioned Emuli Windrunner would still want to protect their people. The Tukari Radiant wouldn't want his people being slaughtered by a fellow KR, and those tensions would still happen. As long as the KR are meant to represent something, then their actions have socio/geopolitical consequences. Just because their actions wont have bond severing consequences, doesn't mean that they can do whatever they want. They can't maintain order when "the bad guys" change every time, and without their bonds, the surefire moral compass is gone too, so they have even less proof that they are in the right with any given action.

Taking it back to Kaladin's dilemma, someone who's been a Radiant for years would have the lifestyle of the Oaths ingrained within them. Imagine that Kaladin loses his bond somehow in SA 9, which is around 2 decades after OB in world. By that time, he'd think in terms of the "honorable choice" even without his bond. That mental dilemma would still occur, but without his bond to keep him on the right track.

All of these theoretical moral scenarios affect people whether or not they have a bond. The bond just shows them where they are on the right track.  The only thing losing their bond changes is that they lose their certainty in the "right path." That's why abandoning their bonds and sticking around changes little. All of those stresses would still be around after they break their bonds, and would still be affecting what they can do.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Quote

"I`d like to think that the past of Bridge Four will make us a little more pragmatic than those ancient Radiants. We won`t abandon you. But finding out, what we will do might end up being messy." Kaladin; OB. p. 1203.

 

 

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Taking it back to Kaladin's dilemma, someone who's been a Radiant for years would have the lifestyle of the Oaths ingrained within them. Imagine that Kaladin loses his bond somehow in SA 9, which is around 2 decades after OB in world. By that time, he'd think in terms of the "honorable choice" even without his bond. That mental dilemma would still occur, but without his bond to keep him on the right track.

So what prevented the Radiants from sticking around was their inability to make really "messy" choices? Like, killing other Radiants? They did enslave the entire Listener race. But maybe that was the trigger that threw them off. I get, what you are saying. It is the oaths in themselves that proclaim an untenable ideal in a world of humans with different passions and perceptions. The Post-Nahel Radiants would still have that moral conflict.

I just think they somehow knew they were slowly coming around to the way of Odium, not just walking away from the way of Honor. They knew, where this game was heading in the long run, so they decided not to play anymore. And I guess, I will hold on to that persuasion until a new book disproves or approves of my theory.       

One additional thing: There would be a neat thematic parallel to christian doctrine.

-Men being sinners/ enclined to the way of Odium;

-Them being saved by the torturous sacrifice of one divine individual (Jesus/Taln)

 -Humans as a whole being bad people, but some individuals are awesome (saints/ Radiants; disciples/ Heralds)

-But even the best human beings betray the one individual (Heralds abandoning Taln/ Judas betraying J., Peter disavowing J., the other d. falling asleep)     

Edited by Diomedes
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

I just think they somehow knew they were slowly coming around to the way of Odium, not just walking away from the way of Honor. They knew, where this game was heading in the long run, so they decided not to play anymore. And I guess, I will hold on to that persuasion until a new book disproves or approves of my theory.       

Concerning the Recreance, Odium's touch just feels... absent to me. So I guess I will disagree with you until such future point.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Retains the Shards post Oathbreaking...would also means there is a chance of an incidental revival.

Disbanding the organization too, is a safe way to prevent change of mind about their decision.

Maybe It's not the only one but It's a way, I wonder how the former Knight spent their Life After the recreance. I think they keep acting in the same way as they used to do...The core of their being is the same, Oaths & Powers or not

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of them do, some don't. Nale for example, he and the skybreakers are still keeping oaths and but at least in Nale's case, he's evil and the rest are either evil or misguided. Look at Dalinar, he's who he is now because of non-binding, at first, oaths. It all depends, I think.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Angsos said:

Some of them do, some don't. Nale for example, he and the skybreakers are still keeping oaths and but at least in Nale's case, he's evil and the rest are either evil or misguided. Look at Dalinar, he's who he is now because of non-binding, at first, oaths. It all depends, I think.

Why is Nale Evil?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because he thinks he is the law therefore killing and anything else he does is right because he thinks he is Law. Also, he joined Odiums side officially now.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize that I'm probably just reiterating arguments that have already been made here, but this is my take on the Recreance, and why it fits much much better than it first appears. 

The fact that the humans were invaders is a relatively minor point. The destruction of their previous world is by powers that they believe to be the same as theirs (which they may have been similar, but they are not in fact the same) is much much bigger. The Shattered Plains are evidence of the destructive power of the surges, and then the lobotomization of the Parsh is another. 

All of these things cumulatively add up to a much bigger weight on the Radiants than just the fact that they were foreign. Add in that all of them save the Shattered Plains happened in rapid succession, and Honor telling them that they would destroy Roshar.... 

And as to the manner in whicg they broke the Oaths... I don't think it could have happened differently. What we saw at Feverstone keep was only two orders of Radiants. The Windrunners and Stonewards, and I believe that action was taken specifically in order to break their oaths. 

It is not enough for the Radiants to have just said "this isn't right, I'm done." the bond had to be broken, and in order to do so an action had to be taken. I believe that Feverstone was enacted as it was specifically to hand the blades over to mortals. It was this act itself that broke the Oaths. An act of giving others the power to kill for the Windrunners in direct opposition of their oaths to protect and a undeniable symbol of giving up for the Stonewards in opposition to their "standing when others fall."

I think that across Roshar, other orders were performing similarly tailored actions to their own oaths, because what happened at Feverstone would not have worked for every order.

The Skybreakers specifically are the type to adhere to the law so strongly that the rare Oathbreaker among them could expect swift Retribution from his fellow Skybreakers. 

The only point at which I still have real questions about the Recreance is the Lightweavers... What action could be taken to break their varied and personalized "oaths?" 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Angsos said:

Because he thinks he is the law therefore killing and anything else he does is right because he thinks he is Law. Also, he joined Odiums side officially now.

He killed believing this would stop the Desolation.

He also restricted himself in killing only when the target is guilty of a crime that allow that.

He also sided with the Singers not with Odium because in his view the Singers have the rights on the Land.

He is in the same Odium's side for extension of this.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Calderis said:

It is not enough for the Radiants to have just said "this isn't right, I'm done." 

I think that`s exactly, what happened. It is an act of speech, saying the words of the oath, which creates the bond in the first place. Saying specific words would also break the bond. According to my theory it would be along these lines: "I am a flawed human led by passions. Men cannot and should not speak oaths. Therefore, I renounce all my oaths."     

22 hours ago, Angsos said:

Because he thinks he is the law therefore killing and anything else he does is right because he thinks he is Law. Also, he joined Odiums side officially now.

His agenda is certainly flawed. But Brandon seems intended to dismantle these categories of Evil and Good and wants to show us things are a little bit more complicated. Honor is not necessarily good, Odium ( Passion) not necessarily evil. The Listeners are fighting a war of Liberation from slavery. Isn`t helping them good? The Alethi are slavemasters wanting to uphold an (uh?) unhumane system of exploitation. They are just using every power that is offering them the means to fight this war, which happens to be Odium and his voidspren.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

It is an act of speech, saying the words of the oath, which creates the bond in the first place.

This is not how magic works in the Cosmere. On their own, words are meaningless vibrations of the air. That's the reason why Intent is so storming important. To name one example: Vasher's "I want you to repeat them, and mean them.” For another, Lift's nonverbal Oath. For a third, the entire concept of lying.


What Calderis is saying is this: Actions speak louder than words."  Consider Kaladin whose Bond didn't break until he acted against it. He had already sworn an oath that contradicted his other ones, but until he acted, those words meant little. It's one of the reason why Squires have trouble bonding a Spren. They can shout words into the wind until they lose their voice, but unless they actually embody what they're saying, nothing happens.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

32 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

This is not how magic works in the Cosmere. On their own, words are meaningless vibrations of the air. That's the reason why Intent is so storming important. To name one example: Vasher's "I want you to repeat them, and mean them.” For another, Lift's nonverbal Oath. For a third, the entire concept of lying.


What Calderis is saying is this: Actions speak louder than words."  Consider Kaladin whose Bond didn't break until he acted against it. He had already sworn an oath that contradicted his other ones, but until he acted, those words meant little. It's one of the reason why Squires have trouble bonding a Spren. They can shout words into the wind until they lose their voice, but unless they actually embody what they're saying, nothing happens.

Yes, obviously the meaning of the words is equally important, if not more so. But, it is the act of speaking the oaths (and mean the words you say) that grants you powers. In WoR Syl could not connect to Kaladin, until he had spoken the oath.   

He has to speak the Words, even though he is tired and beaten up and can hardly speak. He clearly does have the intention behind those words before he speaks them. This absolute necessity to speak the words almost gets him killed by Moash and friends.

Lift is a bit of a exception due to her connection to Cultivation.   

Edited by Diomedes
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Diomedes I don't believe that it's one or the other. It's both.

A spoken oath is not enough without that oath having been truly and completely internalized. Even then, as we see with Lopen in the infirmary, after that point, the oath must still be spoken.

It is a combination of both words and actions that are necessary to advance. In breaking an oath though... When is a oath broken? When you say it is? Or when you act? 

I believe that someone speaking of breaking their oaths, or having questions about them is perfectly natural and would be something to be worked past that does not in itself betray the oath made. The moment that an action is taken in violation though, the bond is severed and the Spren dies. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/19/2018 at 4:45 PM, Angsos said:

Because he thinks he is the law therefore killing and anything else he does is right because he thinks he is Law. Also, he joined Odiums side officially now.

I don’t see him as evil. 

He is the embodiment of what he considers Justice. That is his guidance and his reasoning. He was either given a task by one of the other Heralds (can’t remember his name right now) or in conversation he was convinced of the necessity of preventing any of the other Orders reformation.

I guess I’d call him blinded, but i can see where Evil fits well too. My only evidence AGAINST Evil is that he allows Szeth to swear his Oath to Dalinar, the man leading the armies against the Listeners and Fused. And Nale has sworn to fight on the side of the Listeners and Fused, because Roshar was (evidently) their planet first.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 5/19/2018 at 5:43 PM, Calderis said:

And as to the manner in whicg they broke the Oaths... I don't think it could have happened differently. What we saw at Feverstone keep was only two orders of Radiants. The Windrunners and Stonewards, and I believe that action was taken specifically in order to break their oaths. 

It is not enough for the Radiants to have just said "this isn't right, I'm done." the bond had to be broken, and in order to do so an action had to be taken. I believe that Feverstone was enacted as it was specifically to hand the blades over to mortals. It was this act itself that broke the Oaths. An act of giving others the power to kill for the Windrunners in direct opposition of their oaths to protect and a undeniable symbol of giving up for the Stonewards in opposition to their "standing when others fall."

This is what I was trying to say, except this actually makes sense. Thanks, Cal.

Edited by RShara
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 5/14/2018 at 4:07 PM, Diomedes said:

Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.  

I have always imagined that the destruction of was Ashyn was unintentional - the result of the KR becoming too powerful and overconfident, and stretching their powers to dangerous levels.  But I don't think that the destruction of Ashyn was ever their intention or the intention of any Shard.  I have a hard time believing that Odium actually wants to destroy worlds - that seems much more like the goal of a Shard like Ruin.  I think that Odium wants to gain power and kill the other Shards, but I don't see how the intentional destruction of Ashyn or Roshar would serve him.

On 5/19/2018 at 4:43 PM, Calderis said:

The fact that the humans were invaders is a relatively minor point. The destruction of their previous world is by powers that they believe to be the same as theirs (which they may have been similar, but they are not in fact the same) is much much bigger. The Shattered Plains are evidence of the destructive power of the surges, and then the lobotomization of the Parsh is another. 

On these two examples (the Shattered Plains and the parshmen), I have always imagined the Shattered Plains to be an unintentional action, while the enslavement of the parshmen was intentional.  With regards to the parshmen, it makes sense that the KR would want to lobotomize the entire race of people which could host the reincarnated Voidbringers, and if the enslavement of the parshmen was intentional, it would also make the grievance against the parshmen much more serious, thereby increasing the moral conflict in the books.  I view the Shattered Plains, however, as an unintentional action, and in many ways a smaller-scale version of the destruction of Ashyn.  Some people have suggested that the Shattered Plains were created by an extreme version of the surge of Lightweaving, used to create powerful vibrations in a symmetrical pattern, like the cymatics Kasbal shows Shallan in WoK.  I imagine the destruction of Ashyn happening for the same reason - violent, powerful vibrations, caused possibly by Lightweaving, which tore the planet to pieces.

In both of these examples - the destruction of Ashyn and the Shattering of the Plains, I see the actions of the KR as probably unintentional since there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for why they would have done it.  I also don't think that the Surgebinders who destroyed Ashyn were loyal to Odium or controlled by Odium, because I don't see any reason why Odium would have wanted Ashyn to be destroyed.  If the Shattered Plains and the destruction of Ashyn were unintentional actions, that definitely may have been a factor in enacting the Recreance.  If Surgebinding cannot be controlled and results in such large-scale unplanned disasters, it makes sense that that the KR would have wanted to bury their powers.  

Edited by Llarimar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Llarimar I fully believe that on the parts of the humans, both the plains, and the destruction of Ashyn were unintentional.

The magic users on Ashyn were not the Knights. The Orders developed after the Honorblades were made, which was in response to the desolations beginning. The magic on Ashyn works on similar principles, but there are no spren and no orders. These are things that are intrinsic to Roshar as a world and would not have been present. 

do think that the destruction was intentional on Odium's part. I believe that he foresaw that the destruction would lead to the exodus to Roshar, and thought to use the events in order to facilitate his attack on Honor and Cultivation. 

As to the enslavement of the Parsh, I don't believe it was intentional due to the gem archive. The Knights meant only to deprive the Singers of Voidlight and forms of power, and the lobotomization and enslavement were unintended side effects. 

Quote

A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat.

Quote

We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects.

I believe that those side effects were considered horrendous, and a grievous abuse of power that directly contributed to the Recreance. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.