Why some people do not like Brandon's books

[Darkwalker]

i personally love everything Brandon Sanderson writes but going though amazon reviews for fun i noticed some themes 

1. his books are to long

2. tells more than shows

3. bizarre even for fantasy

4. unoriginal

5. to complex

6. no plot

7. characters are not written well

now what i want to talk about is which of these are justified and which are not and why

Ex. "no plot" just because it does not follow the heroes journey exactly and focuses on internal conflict as much as external does not mean it has no plot           

 

[Rebecca]

Okay, first off, I’m dying. You changed your username to the Returned name I gave you? This is hilarious.

Second, I’ll actually talk about what this topic is about.

Okay, so I know someone who doesn’t like Brandon’s books, and I’ve asked him why and he kind of just told me “I just don’t like his writing style,” or something along those lines. And I always wondered what it was he didn’t like about it (I don’t know him very well, and we don’t talk often, so I never really got a chance to ask). And these are some really good explanations you have.  It could very well be for one of these reasons that he doesn’t like Sanderson books. 

[EddyJ]

#4, unoriginal?? The man turns every fantasy trope there is on its head. Unoriginal (although still somewhat dear to my heart) is Eragon. Brandon's work, on the other hand, is the epitome of original modern fantasy imo.

[Darkwalker]

5 minutes ago, Rebecca said:

Okay, first off, I’m dying. You changed your username to the Returned name I gave you? This is hilarious.

Second, I’ll actually talk about what this topic is about.

Okay, so I know someone who doesn’t like Brandon’s books, and I’ve asked him why and he kind of just told me “I just don’t like his writing style,” or something along those lines. And I always wondered what it was he didn’t like about it (I don’t know him very well, and we don’t talk often, so I never really got a chance to ask). And these are some really good explanations you have.  It could very well be for one of these reasons that he doesn’t like Sanderson books. 

thanks for the new name

 

8 minutes ago, EddyJ said:

#4, unoriginal?? The man turns every fantasy trope there is on its head. Unoriginal (although still somewhat dear to my heart) is Eragon. Brandon's work, on the other hand, is the epitome of original modern fantasy imo.

i know i had the same problem i think that might just be a reaction to "it just didn't interest me" 

[Xtafa]

I've noticed the biggest problem people seem to have is the unfolding story.

They get pissed that they will need to wait 2 books to find an answer to something, or that they have to work things out for themselves instead of being told outright. 

Now this is fine, this is why we have many many many books so everyone can find what they love but yeah, that is my observation. 

[Weltall]

On 5/6/2018 at 9:23 AM, Darkwalker said:

Ex. "no plot" just because it does not follow the heroes journey exactly and focuses on internal conflict as much as external does not mean it has no plot           7

Huh, I don't think I've ever seen a review insist that the Hero's Journey must be a part of a story or followed to the letter. And if I did, I'd probably say 'Okay, why?'. But the internet being the internet, I'm sure that someone has made that argument because people can argue about anything... But onto the reasons you proposed, and with the caveat that I generally don't read reviews so I'm just looking at them as abstract ideas without having any specific reviews in mind:

- Too long: Yeah, I can see why some readers might think that various Brandon books are a bit long; Brandon himself jokes that they're doorstoppers in Alcatraz. I suspect that most people here think that any given book is actually too short and we want more more more!, but even then I doubt there's anyone who hasn't at some point thought 'I'd rather see less of Plot A/Character B/Setting C and more of Plot/D/Character E/Setting F' and so thought that some subset of a book was too long versus some other subset. I had the Wheel of Time books as my gateway drug into doorstopper fantasy novels so I was ready when I started Way of Kings, but I imagine that someone who wasn't already used to big novels could have thought that book could have used a hundred fewer pages while working through it. Until they hit the avalanche at the end, at least. xD So yeah, understandable complaint depending on the specifics of it, even if I doubt many of us would see it the same way.

- Tells more than he shows: Uhhhh, I'm trying to think of some good examples off the top of my head and most of what comes to mind would be from his earliest works. I can think of authors I've read that are definitely guilty of world/character-building by omniscient narration but not Brandon.

- Bizarre: Depends on context, I guess. He's got a lot of really imaginative things (just take Roshar's ecology) that take getting used to but... isn't that a lot of the fun of speculative fiction? I'd have to see some specific reviews to comment on this one, I guess.

- Unoriginal: See above. I mean, I know that Mythwalker would qualify but Brandon abandoned it because he wasn't able to take a typical 'chosen one' story and make it work. And humans have been telling stories for thousands and thousands of years so there's only so many ideas that haven't been used in some way, shape or form by now. I'd reference my favorite JRPG series (Trails/Kiseki by Nihon Falcom) which has a similar 'shared setting' setup to the Cosmere and isn't going to win awards for stories you've never seen before, but they're told so well and the worldbuilding is so neat that it doesn't really matter that any given game's plot is something you've already seen variations of before. Sure, we've all seen something that Mistborn: The Final Empire reminds us of (whether it's a heist story, a Rebels versus Evil Empire story or anything else you could pick) but I'm pretty sure none of us had seen anything exactly like that, with one book for the plot that could have occupied a trilogy unto itself and two books dealing with the fallout of the first.

- No plot: I'd ask what illegal substance the reviewer is abusing and where I can get some. For research purposes of course.

- Too complex: Yeah, this is one I can definitely see where people are coming from. I love really intricate worldbuilding but at the same time, you may just want a 'turn your brain off' book from time to time and don't want to have to deal with five big factions, three secret societies and two dozen characters getting between you and the plot. So if you're in that state of mind, something like Way of Kings probably isn't what you want. At the same time, I think one of the strengths of Brandon's writing is that he's set up all these different worlds within the Cosmere that can be read in isolation, so you're almost certain to find something you like even if any given book or series within it isn't your cup of tea or if you're not as into the huge shared universe aspect. And I suppose I shouldn't limit this to the Cosmere.

- Characters not written well: Eh, case by case definitely.

[Fatling]

My belief has always been that people usually don’t actually know why they don’t like something, they usually just dislike it and then come up with reasons for why they don’t like it. Or they like it and then they come up with reasons why they like it. Like for me, I would actually agree with a couple of these:

Tells more than shows - it’s true that sometimes things that happen in the story seem to only be happening to serve as an explanation of what is going on rather than being a meaningful part of the story

Unoriginal - lots of the stuff Brandon writes is really original, but there are some elements that seem like they were borrowed from Lord of the Rings or WoT (don’t ask because I can’t think of any examples off the top of my head, but I remember a few times that I’ve been reading a Sanderson book and thought “hey that seems just like something in WoT”). Certainly not entire plots or anything, but little elements in some of the stories.

But even though I agree with some of the criticism of Brandon’s books, that hasn’t ever turned me off to them. I think really some of the reasons people don’t like his books is for more subconcious reasons they wouldn’t be able to explain (like one of the characters reminds them of their ex, or they are afraid of heights and Vin soaring around all the time makes them nervous, etc.) All they know is that they don’t really like the book, so they come up with some plausible reasons for not liking it and write a review.

[Dashichka]

On 5/6/2018 at 0:35 PM, EddyJ said:

#4, unoriginal?? The man turns every fantasy trope there is on its head. Unoriginal (although still somewhat dear to my heart) is Eragon. Brandon's work, on the other hand, is the epitome of original modern fantasy imo.

That's the one I stumble over. Name another author who has a magic system like Sanderson? Like any of his books? His crazy originality is what hooked me in the first place.

[Darkwalker]

On 5/7/2018 at 2:35 PM, Weltall said:

No plot: I'd ask what illegal substance the reviewer is abusing and where I can get some. For research purposes of course.

I had the same reaction 

[Khyrindor]

For some of these qualms people have, I would just ask "What could he have done better? Give examples." And if they can't think of anything, their stance is unjustified. You don't have to like something, but don't invent reasons for not liking something that makes it sound like you don't know it at all.

 

Some of the things I've heard some say is that the books tend to be slow to start. This one I agree with, but I'm not one to be turned away by a slow start as some are. I've also had people say that they don't like some of the things Brandon has done to characters. This comes down purely to opinion or taste on how stories should end, and therefore isn't necessarily something Brandon could do better. I can understand some people not liking the writing style. There are authors like Rothfuss or Hobb that have a beautifully written prose. Brandon's at times seems simple. I think that he does this on purpose and that it allows him to write faster and put out more content. It's also somewhat refreshing to read and not have to think overmuch about what a phrase means.

[Dashichka]

6 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

There are authors like Rothfuss or Hobb that have a beautifully written prose. Brandon's at times seems simple. I think that he does this on purpose and that it allows him to write faster and put out more content. It's also somewhat refreshing to read and not have to think overmuch about what a phrase means.

I'll take more awesomely-plotted-books-with-simpler-writing over beautiful-prose-but-waiting-10-years-for-the-next-book any day.

[Jorville]

I talked about this with my wife recently. She does not like Sanderson. The main reason she cited to me was that he was boring. I was dumbfounded by this one, especially since she LOVES the WoT. I really haven't been able to reconcile this in my head. I can get on board with things like "too long" or "Too complex," but boring?

One thing I think is that people should try a couple of different books. I think that he is versatile enough that it you were to read a couple of different books anyone could find something they like by him.

[JoelyWoely]

It's almost as if people like different things.

[Yvainnie]

2 hours ago, JoelyWoely said:

It's almost as if people like different things.

 made my day.

Anyway I heard one kind of strange opinion. My friend read all Mistborn and loved it and then she started to read SA: TWoK and she saih she was too depressed by it and that it is too dark for her to read, too apocalyptic. It that only me or is: "Ash fell from the sky for thousand years," and the whole immortal Lord Ruler more depressing than Prologue and Desolation?

[Llarimar]

On 5/10/2018 at 11:44 PM, Khyrindor said:

Some of the things I've heard some say is that the books tend to be slow to start. This one I agree with, but I'm not one to be turned away by a slow start as some are.

....

I can understand some people not liking the writing style. There are authors like Rothfuss or Hobb that have a beautifully written prose. Brandon's at times seems simple. I think that he does this on purpose and that it allows him to write faster and put out more content. It's also somewhat refreshing to read and not have to think overmuch about what a phrase means.

The first Sanderson book I ever read was Mistborn, because I had the book incessantly recommended to me by tons of my friends and so I finally gave it a try.  I remember that when I first read Mistborn, throughout most of the novel I was pretty underwhelmed - I remember thinking, "This is what everyone's been talking about?"  My main problem with Mistborn when I first read it was the fact that I thought the book had a very tedious pace, and the writing style was not very pretty.  There was nothing wrong with the writing, I just didn't like it.  I never found myself stopping and rereading a phrase because I loved the way that it was worded.  And I thought that the worldbuilding aspects - the magic system, the ash, the Inquisitors - were very random and unorganized.  

When I finished Mistborn, however, my view completely changed.  I was blown away by the way that the plot threads came together, and suddenly I found myself wanting to reread the book because of everything I had learned.  I think that is why people sometimes struggle with Sanderson when they first encounter him.  To fully appreciate his writing and recognize what he does so well, you need to put a lot of work into reading his books, and you have to push through a lot of narrative to see the way that it all connects.  Yes, his books are entertaining on a surface level, but if you are only looking at books at their surface value, there are much better books to choose from.  The true beauty and value of Sanderson's books lies on a much deeper level, which I believe is that of his incredible foresight and his immense control as an author, which is what I find so impressive and enjoyable about his writing.  He always has a plan, and he always brings the plot threads together in a way that is not only immensely satisfying but also clearly premeditated.  This is what gives me immense respect for Sanderson as a writer - you can see the level of work he invests into each book.  Now, I am at the point where I have so much faith in Sanderson as an author that even if I find a particular book to be boring or unenjoyable in the middle, even extremely long books like the Stormlight Archive, I push forward and keep reading because I know that in the end, I will be amazed and satisfied by his foresight and planning.  

Once you recognize Sanderson's incredible foresight, other things about his books become much better as well.  You become much more invested in the worldbuilding and the magic systems, you start looking for Worldhoppers, you develop theories about the larger cosmere and you look for Hoid in each story, just to name a few examples.  Just realizing that his books are all connected is extremely electrifying and exciting, because it's not very easy to notice if you just read a few of his books here and there.  Once I realized that his books were connected, I felt like I had uncovered a great secret and I became almost addicted to cosmere works - I had to get my hands on all the cosmere literature available, even things like White Sand and the Arcanum Unbounded collection, because I wanted to keep looking for the ways in which the worlds were connected.  All of these things which I consider the best parts of his writing - his foresight and planning regarding the cosmere, the three Realms, the magic systems, the shards of Adonalsium - are not things you can fully appreciate just by reading the first few chapters of one of his books.  You have to put in a lot of work, and mentally invest yourself into his writing, and that is what I think puts a lot of people off.  As expressed earlier...

On 5/7/2018 at 11:35 AM, Weltall said:

- Too complex: Yeah, this is one I can definitely see where people are coming from. I love really intricate worldbuilding but at the same time, you may just want a 'turn your brain off' book from time to time and don't want to have to deal with five big factions, three secret societies and two dozen characters getting between you and the plot. So if you're in that state of mind, something like Way of Kings probably isn't what you want.

For this reason alone,  I think Sanderson's books are not for everyone, because not everyone reads books thoroughly and contemplatively.  They want books to provide shallow, immediate entertainment - which Sanderson's books do, but much less satisfactorily than many other books out there.  Like I said before, what truly makes Sanderson's books remarkable and unique lies at a deeper level.  

[elinox]

On 5/6/2018 at 0:23 PM, Darkwalker said:

1. his books are too long

2. tells more than shows

3. bizarre even for fantasy

4. unoriginal

5. too complex

6. no plot

7. characters are not written well

now what i want to talk about is which of these are justified and which are not and why

Ex. "no plot" just because it does not follow the heroes journey exactly and focuses on internal conflict as much as external does not mean it has no plot           

 

1. Wimps. Yes, 1220 pages is daunting, but as long as the story's good, who cares how long it takes you to read it? That just lets you stay in the world longer! If you're into fantasy, you generally have to wade through book after book in a series. Sanderson does the same, but you get waaaaay more bang for your buck this way! 

2. In his books, you have to pay attention. Not everything is crystal clear or handed to the reader on a platter. Readers who actually enjoy reading, and not just quick story fixes, appreciate that he doesn't treat us like idiots or kids!

3. Bizarre? Really? Personally, I love that he writes outside the norm in fantasy. I wish there was MORE weird stuff in his stories!

4. hahahahaa...seriously? The man himself said that he intentionally breaks common fantasy tropes. So yeah, this reviewer is just an idiot!

5. See #2: pay attention. Or else come here to fill in the gaps to your questions. His stories really aren't that hard to understand. Well, maybe if you're reading at a 5th grade reading level...

6. Did this reviewer ever actually read one of his books? They're bursting with plot! Dripping with plot! Oozing with plot! 

7. I can give you lots of examples from more popular fantasy books with flat, boring, unimaginative characters. Sanderson's characters are original and very easy to connect with. 

Seriously, anyone says his books suck and I will fight them over it.  

[Nesh]

I know a guy who feels that Brandon doesn't go in-depth enough on cultures.  This was a big problem with Mistborn for him, that all the nobles had a homogeneous culture with no real regional differences.

[A Secret Corner]

52 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I know a guy who feels that Brandon doesn't go in-depth enough on cultures.  This was a big problem with Mistborn for him, that all the nobles had a homogeneous culture with no real regional differences.

That's actually something that I've thought about. Then when I've had such thoughts, I tried to think in perspective, and I know that not every book has 1000+ pages into which worldbuilding packed, even when Brandon is the writer.

[Proud Darkeyes]

My friend recently read WoK, and the entire time she was complaining about how boring it was, and that all they did was talk about war, and blah blah. She said she loved Shallan, but the story didn't focus on her enough, and she was always bored with Kaladin. She also said that there was so many parts of the story that  she seemed unnecessary. Of course I tried to explain to her that every detail will have some significance sooner or later, and that it all comes together in the end, but she wouldn't listen -_-. So now I'm kinda upset that she disliked it so much, because it's just amazing and how can she not like it?! She loved Warbreaker and Rithmatist (the only other Brandon works she's read), and I'm disappointed that she said she isn't going to continue that series. (I might get her to read mistborn though... And maybe if she starts to understand the cosmere she'll come back to SA...?)

[king of nowhere]

On 13/5/2018 at 4:06 PM, Yvainnie said:

 made my day.

Anyway I heard one kind of strange opinion. My friend read all Mistborn and loved it and then she started to read SA: TWoK and she saih she was too depressed by it and that it is too dark for her to read, too apocalyptic. It that only me or is: "Ash fell from the sky for thousand years," and the whole immortal Lord Ruler more depressing than Prologue and Desolation?

I have a friend who voiced a similar problem. "ppoor kaladin, I can't take any more of the stuff happening to him"

[Emily]

My dad doesn’t want to listen to ANOTHER 8 50-odd hour long audiobooks that he’ll forget the plot of by the time the next one comes out, also he feels that WoK and WoR make a story that could be considered complete. My mum thinks that Brandon Sanderson overuses ellipses and that middle The Well of Ascension is too boring. 

[goody153]

Always a good rule to assume that not everybody likes the same things with various reasons. It's just a matter of preference. 

I introduced Mistborn to my friends too and they didn't enjoy it as much as i would think. 

[StrikerEZ]

On May 6, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Darkwalker said:

i personally love everything Brandon Sanderson writes but going though amazon reviews for fun i noticed some themes 

1. his books are to long

2. tells more than shows

3. bizarre even for fantasy

4. unoriginal

5. to complex

6. no plot

7. characters are not written well

now what i want to talk about is which of these are justified and which are not and why

Ex. "no plot" just because it does not follow the heroes journey exactly and focuses on internal conflict as much as external does not mean it has no plot           

 

I know everyone has already given their take on this, but I'm going to as well.

1. I can definitely see that. The man writes A LOT. For someone who is not used to really long books like that, it's a daunting task to read a 1000+ page book, hell, it's hard to read a 500 page book if you're not used to it. The problem with this though is that they haven't worked up to being able to read longer works. If they've been reading 200-400 page books, of course something like Mistborn will seem really long to them (and don't even get me started on WoK). If I had someone tell me the books were too long for them, I would agree. I would then tell them to start reading longer books, then give Sanderson a try again.

2. I...I really don't agree with this at all. Brandon does tell instead of show sometimes (a certain exposition in OB comes to mind), but I think he's definitely one of the best authors out there when it comes to showing instead of telling. I don't know how someone could think any of his books are more telling overall than showing.

3. Not gonna lie, Brandon's books are pretty weird sometimes. But that's kind of the whole point of fantasy. To escape to a new, weird world. A world where the normal rules of reality don't apply. Aren't they tired of tons of LotR ripoffs by now? If they're looking for more Middle Earth, elves and dwarves books, then just read the originals again.

4. ......

5. I actually have a personal anecdote about this. I tried to get a friend of mine to read Mistborn, but she couldn't get into it and this was (basically) her complaint with it. How she phrased it was that the magic made no sense, and she had to constantly flip to the back in order to remember what any of the metals did, which broke the flow of the story. She also said there was too much stuff about the world given to the reader in such a short amount of time that it makes it hard to grasp the world. I had her critiquing my writing, and this was the exact same complaint she gave about my own writing. 

How I feel about this is that the types of books she tends to read (largely YA or softer fantasy) don't have as much of a learning curve, compared to Brandon's books (and, since Brandon is my biggest inspiration for writing, my books as well), in order to start understanding the world. That's just part of the fantasy genre though. We read fantasy to explore a new world that we don't understand. No one really understands the world in a fantasy book at the start; that's not the point. The whole point is to discover, explore, and immerse ourselves in this new, interesting world. Once you get past the learning curve, I don't think his books are that complex, really. There's a lot too them, sure, but it's relatively easy to understand. You can predict what will happen fairly easily. It's hard to do that in most other authors' books, where the plot bends to their will instead of the plot flowing naturally.

6. .....why? How?

7. I will agree, their are some characters (*coughZanecough*) that are written very poorly. But I don't think the occasional mishap with a character detracts from how good the rest of his characters are. I can understand not personally liking a character, or not liking what happens to them, or not liking certain actions they take because you find them idiotic. But I feel all of his characters follow who they are, even if I can't relate to them or disagree with them.

Despite all of this analysis, I will admit some people will just not like his books. People are allowed to not like things that I like, and vice versa. As long as everyone can agree that we are entitled to like different things without getting hated for it, then we're all good. 

[Undead Wookiee]

Some people also like to try inappropriate things, like dividing by zero or other such nonsense.

[Orlion Blight]

1 minute ago, Undead Wookiee said:

Some people also like to try inappropriate things, like dividing by zero or other such nonsense.

"Division by Zero" is a fantastic short story by Ted Chiang!