Ashspren Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 A friend and I were discussing the importance of numbers in the Cosmere, and how they relate to each Shard. For example, in the Stormlight Archive, the Shard called Honor always has things in tens, and Odium always has things in nines. Is there a pattern like this in the rest of the Cosmere? My personal theory (it has no evidence to back it up, but it seems plausible) is that the numbers have to do with the order in which they gained their powers as Vessels. Maybe Odium was the ninth, followed by Honor. In Mistborn, there are sixteen Metallurgic metals. Perhaps Leras, the Vessel for Preservation, was the sixteenth person to gain the powers? This isn’t as solid, though, as Hemalurgy is of Ruin... Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 They seem tied more to the planets than the Shards. The entire Rosharan system, which was made by Adonalsium, is 10 based, except for Braize, which is 9 based, which implies that it was all done before the Shattering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashspren Posted April 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 Then how did the Shards choose which planets to choose as their homes? Was it based on the numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersmith Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 11 hours ago, Ashspren said: A friend and I were discussing the importance of numbers in the Cosmere, and how they relate to each Shard. For example, in the Stormlight Archive, the Shard called Honor always has things in tens, and Odium always has things in nines. Is there a pattern like this in the rest of the Cosmere? My personal theory (it has no evidence to back it up, but it seems plausible) is that the numbers have to do with the order in which they gained their powers as Vessels. Maybe Odium was the ninth, followed by Honor. In Mistborn, there are sixteen Metallurgic metals. Perhaps Leras, the Vessel for Preservation, was the sixteenth person to gain the powers? This isn’t as solid, though, as Hemalurgy is of Ruin... Thoughts? I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think it could be pretty plausible. I personally think that if this is legit then Preservation is 16. I also think that Ruin is 3 because they only have 3 forms of hemagurly, granted it does say somewhere that there could be more but then I'll just say he's whatever number there is of forms there is. but for now i'm sticking with 3. I also think Autonomy is either 2, or something bigger then 2. I think 2 because there's 2 sides of the planet with the sand ( I can't think of the name) and a larger number because Autonomy has multiple holders so maybe the number is the number if holders. I have one more. I think Endowment is 15, because it says somewhere that there can only be 15 returned at a time. I think. I haven't read warbreaker for a long time so I'm not as confident on this one. 10 hours ago, RShara said: They seem tied more to the planets than the Shards. The entire Rosharan system, which was made by Adonalsium, is 10 based, except for Braize, which is 9 based, which implies that it was all done before the Shattering. Well maybe the shards came to those planets because that was their number. Like Honor went to Roshar because it had a number of 10 and he was the 10th to pick up a shard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Ashspren said: Then how did the Shards choose which planets to choose as their homes? Was it based on the numbers? 5 minutes ago, supersmith said: Well maybe the shards came to those planets because that was their number. Like Honor went to Roshar because it had a number of 10 and he was the 10th to pick up a shard. It's possible, or it could be that the Shards don't have a number at all, and only the planets do. 6 minutes ago, supersmith said: I have one more. I think Endowment is 15, because it says somewhere that there can only be 15 returned at a time. I think. I haven't read warbreaker for a long time so I'm not as confident on this one. Nah, there are like, 25 palaces.. If anything Endowment's/Nalthis's might be 5. 5 Scholars and 5x5 Returned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersmith Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 Just now, RShara said: It's possible, or it could be that the Shards don't have a number at all, and only the planets do. Nah, there are like, 25 palaces.. If anything Endowment's/Nalthis's might be 5. 5 Scholars and 5x5 Returned. Ya that sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 Also, remember that not all Shards are associated with numbers. Quote The Only Joe (paraphrased) Do all shards have a number they're associated with? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Some do, (most/some) don't. source 1 hour ago, supersmith said: I also think that Ruin is 3 because they only have 3 forms of hemagurly What are the 3 forms of Hemalurgy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersmith Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said: What are the 3 forms of Hemalurgy? Kandra, Inquisitor, and Koloss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, supersmith said: 4 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said: What are the 3 forms of Hemalurgy? Kandra, Inquisitor, and Koloss. Oh, gotcha. By forms, I thought you meant more like the 16 metals. Coppermind calls those Hemalurgical Constructs, and there's actually a forth form - Chimeras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersmith Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 Oh I forgot Chimeras. Oops. Well then I think Ruin's number is 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 The thing is, four is only the currently known number of hemalurgic constructs. That number is clearly not absolute and is subject to change pending additional experimentation. Sixteen on the other hand is a number solidly associated with Ruin because it's the number of viable base metals, which is the same with Preservation. Because sixteen is associated with Scadrial and thus, both Shards on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatikis Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 I wouldn't look at the current number of hemalurgic creatures. It seems that there is a huge number of possible combinations. You can make a spike of pretty much any cosmere attribute or ability. You can have any combination of any of these. Including the possible combination of animals mixed in. You then can begin mixing in the nonhuman races like mistwraiths, dragons, or parshmen. What we are calling hemalurgic constructs are really just the more obvious side effects when you screw with your spirit web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 Yeah, I think that at this point I've been convinced that the numbers are related to the planets, not the Shards. The question is, why? It makes intuitive sense for the Shards to have a some sort of mystical number (they're basically gods, after all). But why would different planets be associated with different numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Weltall said: The thing is, four is only the currently known number of hemalurgic constructs. That number is clearly not absolute and is subject to change pending additional experimentation. Sixteen on the other hand is a number solidly associated with Ruin because it's the number of viable base metals, which is the same with Preservation. Because sixteen is associated with Scadrial and thus, both Shards on it. Agreed. I really think the numbers are tied more to the planets/solar system than to the Shards. And Bleeder was a kandra but with only one spike, and a spike that gave her Allomantic or Feruchemical powers. Does she still count as a kandra? What would humans who are just spiked to have an ability be classified as? 1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said: Yeah, I think that at this point I've been convinced that the numbers are related to the planets, not the Shards. The question is, why? It makes intuitive sense for the Shards to have a some sort of mystical number (they're basically gods, after all). But why would different planets be associated with different numbers? Maybe it's because that's what Adonalsium did with the solar systems/planets? Like, we know the Roshar system is 10 based (except for Braize for some reason), and Adonalsium created the entire system. Maybe it's like, order of creation? That would explain why Scadrial is 16, because it was created last, after the Shattering. */end wild speculation* Edited April 25, 2018 by RShara 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicegrip Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 37 minutes ago, supersmith said: Oh I forgot Chimeras. Oops. Well then I think Ruin's number is 4. I was just going to point that out - and I actually don't think we know even a drip of Hemalurgy's potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicegrip Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 I'm feeling super behind - where do we learn that Braize is base 9. I know in OB we see Odium is base 9, but didn't connect that to Braize. Gosh I need to reread OB again don't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, Vicegrip said: I'm feeling super behind - where do we learn that Braize is base 9. I know in OB we see Odium is base 9, but didn't connect that to Braize. Gosh I need to reread OB again don't I? It was from this WoB Quote Herald (paraphrased) Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system. Herald (paraphrased) The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Big RAFO. Herald (paraphrased) Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicegrip Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 @RShara - Thank you kindly! And so much to think about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athanat0s Posted April 27, 2018 Report Share Posted April 27, 2018 I've been toying with the theory that maybe the recurrence of the number 10 on Roshar is a hint at some deception, like it was in classical era Scadrial (Lord Ruler keeping most allomantic metals secret) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KalaDANG Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 4/25/2018 at 10:44 AM, Scion of the Mists said: Oh, gotcha. By forms, I thought you meant more like the 16 metals. Coppermind calls those Hemalurgical Constructs, and there's actually a forth form - Chimeras. Technically, the Chimeras aren't of ruin, they're using the "Unknown metal" or Trellium to spike the humans they use or however they make people into Chimeras, so technically this new form isn't of Ruin, but of Trell. Whoever he actually is. Chimeras are a Hemalurgical Construct, but they aren't necessarily of Ruin unless they were simply previously undiscovered. I doubt it though since their creation seems to rely upon the strange powers that the new god metal has. So if we ARE sticking with the numbers system for shards, three could still work for Ruin. There are even three major planets and gas giants in the Scadrian system, so that would support the theory. That's debunked though if the two dwarf planets count. We don't count Pluto though, so I'm sticking with it. I don't know if Ruin would really have a number, because like RShara showed us, not all shards associate themselves with a number. But with the information we have, three seems most likely. It's possible that Ruin had more Hemalurgic Constructs that he didn't show Rashek how to create, but i'm guessing not. It makes sense that he'd point Rashek to creating the Koloss, Inquisitors, and Kandra because it created tools he could control easily. I don't really see any reason why Ruin would withhold any extra knowledge from Rashek that would only allow for the creation of more slaves for Ruin. So I do think that there are only three Hemalurgic Constructs that are of Ruin, and the Fourth is simply of Trell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 It's unlikely that the chimaeras require 'Trellium' to be created, but rather it was easier to steal the unknown attribute that was spiked into them by using a godmetal, rather than having Paalm try to work out which of the base metals works for whatever was needed. Or possibly, she could have used the base metal but the trait in question would be too weakened to work properly without a godmetal spike, since we know that atium works 'better' than a conventional metal it's reasonable to imagine that another godmetal would likewise be more effective. And actually using atium for the spikes is obviously out of the question given the lack of that metal in Era 2. But atium should definitely work if you had it, since we know it can steal anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatronOfRot Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 Using a base metal wouldn't work because it would open the chimeras to Harmony's control. That's one very important reason to use trellium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 1 hour ago, PatronOfRot said: Using a base metal wouldn't work because it would open the chimeras to Harmony's control. That's one very important reason to use trellium. The stealth attributes of Trellium are a matter of location not control. Paalm avoided control by only using a single spike, Trellium or otherwise. If the chimeras, as base human, function like other constructs or human uses of hemalurgy, it would have taken 4 spikes to directly control them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 On 4/27/2018 at 4:27 PM, Athanat0s said: I've been toying with the theory that maybe the recurrence of the number 10 on Roshar is a hint at some deception, like it was in classical era Scadrial (Lord Ruler keeping most allomantic metals secret) Ditto... I thought 16 was tied to Preservation via the total number of Shards anyway, instead of being a Scadrial-centric factoid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted June 19, 2018 Report Share Posted June 19, 2018 On 4/27/2018 at 4:27 PM, Athanat0s said: I've been toying with the theory that maybe the recurrence of the number 10 on Roshar is a hint at some deception, like it was in classical era Scadrial (Lord Ruler keeping most allomantic metals secret) The number ten isn't just a Rosharan thing but also is part of Ashyn, while Braize is associated with the number nine. Quote Herald (paraphrased) Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric. source There isn't any kind of trickery at work like Scadrial had with Rashek hiding the secret of some of the metals. Roshar has an association with the number ten and the Surge combinations are built into the system. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] In the cosmere, sixteen is obviously a very important number, or very significant, but on Roshar everything comes in groups of ten. Is that a cultural construction or is that really how things are being grouped on that planet? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] It is both. It is a cultural construction that came from slight cosmere events that are not super, super, super important. Like, there's a reason we think in base ten, right? Is it important to the universe? Meh? And it's maybe a little more on Roshar, but at the same time.... Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] There are ten orders of surgebinders. Did they order them that way? Or are there actually sixteen different... Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Well, it kind of goes back to there were ten Knights Radiant with ten sets of power given by Honor, and Honor is an individual, right, so does that make sense? You cannot separate, in a lot of places in the cosmere, the perspectives of the sapient beings who are interfering with what's going on. Even going back to the number sixteen. source Quote Khyrindor (paraphrased) Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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