Does anyone know what Brandon read during Jordancon?

[Ashspren]

With everything we just learned about he pomegranate, I’m going to rewrite the summary I wrote in the super long, piece-by-piece post...

To summarize:

Hoid returns to Yolen after the events of Mistborn Era 1, eating a pomegranate. There, he is met by Frost, a dragon, and the only person in the Cosmere older than Hoid. Frost reprimands Hoid for intervening in the events leading up to the deaths of Ati and Leras, the vessels for Ruin and Preservation. This leads into a conversation about Hoid's intentions: he has lost something or someone, most likely a dead loved one, and is seeking revenge for the person who killed them. As Hoid speaks bitterly about something living and mournfully for that which is dead tosses the pomegranate he was eating on the ground, possibly signifying the fact that he will never change his beliefs until he gets what he wants. When Frost tells him that it would be wise to let it go, Hoid reminds him about what a "simple vendetta" could lead to, by referencing how Ati nearly destroyed the world. Hoid leaves us on an ominous note, saying that there are more powerful beings with stronger desires for revenge, who are more dangerous that he could ever be.

I think this pretty much sums up what we can get from this story. Maybe, as we learn more, we can add to the summary and make an “official” blurb about how much we know. I have a feeling that this story is going to become EXTREMELY important.

So with that, feel free to quote it, then copy it and change it. Or, write a new one altogether— there are probably a lot of different ways that the concepts from the story could be interpreted, but what’s in the summary is only my opinion (my thought process is in the super long piece-by-piece post).

[Fatikis]

24 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

I think this pretty much sums up what we can get from this story. Maybe, as we learn more, we can add to the summary and make an “official” blurb about how much we know. I have a feeling that this story is going to become EXTREMELY important.

I feel it is extremely useful insight into Hoid with a nice look into some other happenings, but as it isn't even published it cannot be that important to the cosmere as a whole. 

[+robardin]

A very nice summary!

One question - where is the info coming from about Ati and Leras having been close friends (even "besties") in their human life?

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Ashspren and @ljósmóður, maybe the detail of Hoid eating pomegranate pips is to evoke elements of Greek mythology. There is a better parallel for Hoid and his quest to return someone he loves from the dead, namely the Story of Orpheus and Eurydice.

 Hopefully when he's rescuing his beloved he won't look back until they're both safely away.

Edited April 30, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Ashspren]

24 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

I feel it is extremely useful insight into Hoid with a nice look into some other happenings, but as it isn't even published it cannot be that important to the cosmere as a whole. 

I feel like it’s good to have this insight on Hoid. We have never seen him lose his head or his temper. We have never seen this display of emotion from him. It really gives him some depth as a character, and helps us to see: this guy is human, or once was. Even if he is this mega-god being, he isn’t above having feelings. Now, we have a better understanding of his motives, and what they are driven by. He is mourning an old, but still important, loss— possibly of a love interest, family member, or friend— and is seeking revenge.

So what does he want with a lerasium bead? What does he want with the Moon Scepter?

OB Spoiler...

Spoiler

What does he want with a bond to a cryptic?

It seems that he is taking something that represents every Shard. I would not be surprised if he also kept hold of an atium bead, some white sand, and maybe something from Threnody (that is, if he has gone there yet).

So what do we know about Hoid’s motives now?

1. They are driven by emotion.
2. He requires a certain group of objects in order for his plan to work
3. Whatever plan he has to get what he wants is very, very dangerous— for himself, for Frost, and possibly the entire Cosmere.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Ashspren

[Ashspren]

5 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

@Ashspren and @ljósmóður, maybe the detail of Hoid eating pomegranate pips is to evoke elements of Greek mythology. There is a better parallel for Hoid and his quest to return someone he loves from the dead, namely the Story of Orpheus and Eurydice.

 Hopefully when he's rescuing his beloved he won't look back until they're both safely away.

I absolutely love that idea. However, I feel like there is a greater chance that he will indeed look back. I have a feeling that Hoid is going to have a very tragic ending...

By the way, sorry for the double post, but the formatting was being weird and I didn’t know how to fix it.

[Fatikis]

51 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

I feel like it’s good to have this insight on Hoid. We have never seen him lose his head or his temper. We have never seen this display of emotion from him. It really gives him some depth as a character, and helps us to see: this guy is human, or once was. Even if he is this mega-god being, he isn’t above having feelings. Now, we have a better understanding of his motives, and what they are driven by. He is mourning an old, but still important, loss— possibly of a love interest, family member, or friend— and is seeking revenge.

So what does he want with a lerasium bead? What does he want with the Moon Scepter?

OB Spoiler...

  Reveal hidden contents

What does he want with a bond to a cryptic?

It seems that he is taking something that represents every Shard. I would not be surprised if he also kept hold of an atium bead, some white sand, and maybe something from Threnody (that is, if he has gone there yet).

So what do we know about Hoid’s motives now?

1. They are driven by emotion.
2. He requires a certain group of objects in order for his plan to work
3. Whatever plan he has to get what he wants is very, very dangerous— for himself, for Frost, and possibly the entire Cosmere.

I agree that it is very good to have insight. I just think that either this will be included in a published book, or the same themes will be reiterated in other novels. It was very short but awesome. Exactly how I want Hoid. Honestly, I'm not excited for Hoid as a full character. Sanderson will probably prove me wrong, but Hoid works in small mysterious doses.

Hoid does not currently have Lerasium. He used it to become a Mistborn.

He rejected a shard probably because he knew it would twist him. If he gathers enough investiture of different types he shouldn't be warped by the intents. As he pointed out not even Ati the best of them couldn't resist the pull of his shard. That is what Hoid fears. It almost is a twist on Odium. Odium refuses to take another shard because he will stop being Odium. Hoid refuses to take a shard because he knows he will no longer be Hoid. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Fatikis

[Ashspren]

1 minute ago, Fatikis said:

I agree that it is very good to have insight. I just think that either this will be included in a published book, or the same themes will be reiterated in other novels. It was very short but awesome. Exactly how I want Hoid. Honestly, I'm not excited for Hoid as a full character. Sanderson will probably prove me wrong, but Hoid works in small mysterious doses.

Hoid does not currently have Lerasium. He used it to become a Mistborn.

He rejected a shard probably because he knew it would twist him. If he gathers enough investiture of different types he shouldn't be warped by the intents. As he pointed out not even Ati the best of them could resist the pull of his shard. That is what Hoid fears. It almost is a twist on Odium. Odium refuses to take another shard because he will stop being Odium. Hoid refuses to take a shard because he knows he will no longer be Hoid. 

Thanks for the clarification about Lerasium.

Also, I agree about the balance of different Shardic powers. I feel like balance and equality is a big theme for Hoid— the white balance on Yolen, the balance of Shards, etc. Maybe Hoid is seeking revenge because the death of the loved one set something off-balance in his life...

[Jeffo]

2 hours ago, Ashspren said:

Thanks for the clarification about Lerasium.

Also, I agree about the balance of different Shardic powers. I feel like balance and equality is a big theme for Hoid— the white balance on Yolen, the balance of Shards, etc. Maybe Hoid is seeking revenge because the death of the loved one set something off-balance in his life...

If that’s the case I think he will like what Dalinar seems to be turning to.

[Scion of the Mists]

On 4/30/2018 at 0:05 PM, Fatikis said:

Hoid does not currently have Lerasium. He used it to become a Mistborn.

FYI, Brandon has not confirmed this and has, in fact, been rather coy about it.  He has confirmed that Hoid has used Allomancy.  

Personally, I believe that he did burn it, and that this is "The Man who Calls Himself Taln" all over again.

WOBs spoilered for length:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Is Wit, or Hoid-- Is he an Allomancer

Brandon Sanderson

He did steal a bead of lerasium off of Scadrial. If he were to make use of that bead, certain powers could have been gained.

Questioner

Okay. "If he were to have used it."

Brandon Sanderson

If he were to have used it.

source

 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

From Secret History, does Hoid have all the magic from the universe you've created?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He does not have all the magic. He did take the bead of lerasium, and you have seen him use Allomancy. So, he is confirmed to have used Allomancy.

source

 

Quote

Questioner

Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself allomantic powers?

Brandon Sanderson

His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Questioner

And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It could not give powers other than allomancy.

Questioner

Because it’s lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right?

Brandon Sanderson

You have seen him use Allomancy…

Oversleep

Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>.

Brandon Sanderson

You have actually seen him use Allomancy.

Footnote: Brandon still refuses to say whether Hoid did burn lerasium
source

 

 

[Fatikis]

11 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

FYI, Brandon has not confirmed this and has, in fact, been rather coy about it.  He has confirmed that Hoid has used Allomancy.  

Personally, I believe that he did burn it, and that this is "The Man who Calls Himself Taln" all over again.

You just posted a quote confirming he used the Lerasium?

Quote

Questioner

Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself allomantic powers?

Brandon Sanderson

His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Hoid rewrote his sDNA with the goal of becoming an Allomancer. We have seen him use Allomancy.  This equals Hoid has used the lerasium.

Technically he might not be a Mistborn he could have used and alloyed a piece of it to gain only misting abilities. We so far have only seen him Sooth.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Fatikis

[Scion of the Mists]

5 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

You just posted a quote confirming he used the Lerasium?

Nowhere in that WOB does Brandon say that Hoid burned the Lerasium.  He talks about Hoid's goal, what Lerasium does, and how Hoid has used Allomancy, but never comes out and says what happened to the bead.  

Again, I believe that he did burn the entire bead to become a Mistborn, and that Brandon is just messing with us.  

[Fatikis]

1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Nowhere in that WOB does Brandon say that Hoid burned the Lerasium.  He talks about Hoid's goal, what Lerasium does, and how Hoid has used Allomancy, but never comes out and says what happened to the bead.  

Again, I believe that he did burn the entire bead to become a Mistborn, and that Brandon is just messing with us.  

When asked a question of how Hoid used the Lerasium his reply was Hoid's goal was to become an Allomancer. That extremely heavily implies that Hoid used the Lerasium.

[The One Who Connects]

14 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

That extremely heavily implies that Hoid used the Lerasium.

The thing is, it's just an implication, and it's your implication. Brandon says things the way he does because he knows we will make assumptions from them. Whether our assumptions are right or not is not his problem.

All that the phrase "His goal was to become an Allomancer" says is that that is the initial reason Hoid took the bead. The only other things we know is that we've seen him use Allomancy, which means nothing. He could have decided that Medallions were a better method of being an Allomancer since they are reusable, which keeps the irreplaceable bead of Lerasium available for other purposes in the future.

---

You are correct in saying that "this implies Hoid used the Lerasium." You are not correct in saying that "Hoid use the Lerasium to become a Mistborn."

That is the point Scion is trying to get across to you. You are taking an implication as a fact, when that is not how facts work. This is the exact reason companies cannot state something as fact beforehand, even if there is no possibility of them being wrong. For example, Billboard and Ariana Grande. Spoiler Tag b/c example or not, this is still a tangent.

Spoiler

Her new song debuted in the top 10 on the Hot 100, earning her the honor of being the first artist to have the leadout single of their first 4 albums all debut top 10. Yet in their Top 10 article, Billboard said this:

Quote

Also notably, while "Tears" is, as of now, a stand-alone single, should it wind up serving as the lead single from Grande's fourth proper LP, she'll extend an unprecedented honor and become the only artist to have debuted the first single from each of her first four LPs in the Hot 100's top 10.

Billboard's article has to word it this way because it's technically possible for her/her label to change the final track listing of the album to not include the song. Given how successful the song is right now, her label has no reason to do so(especially since they've already said it will be on the album), but Billboard's wording still allows for the possibility so they can avoid potential "false advertisement" suits in the future.

This is what Brandon is doing. "The man they call Taln" ended up being Taln, and that was pretty clear to us a while back, but Brandon not confirming it gives him wiggle room. It's highly likely that Hoid used the Lerasium, but it's still possible that he didn't, which is reflected in Brandon's wording. He's said that newer Books will be the higher canon if they contradict older WoBs, but it's easier for him to leave options open from the start.

Personally, I kinda hope Hoid's Allomancy is just from his access to Medallions, for no better reason than because all of us are on the Lerasium train.

[Ashspren]

On 5/1/2018 at 11:45 AM, The One Who Connects said:

The thing is, it's just an implication, and it's your implication. Brandon says things the way he does because he knows we will make assumptions from them. Whether our assumptions are right or not is not his problem.

All that the phrase "His goal was to become an Allomancer" says is that that is the initial reason Hoid took the bead. The only other things we know is that we've seen him use Allomancy, which means nothing. He could have decided that Medallions were a better method of being an Allomancer since they are reusable, which keeps the irreplaceable bead of Lerasium available for other purposes in the future.

---

You are correct in saying that "this implies Hoid used the Lerasium." You are not correct in saying that "Hoid use the Lerasium to become a Mistborn."

That is the point Scion is trying to get across to you. You are taking an implication as a fact, when that is not how facts work. This is the exact reason companies cannot state something as fact beforehand, even if there is no possibility of them being wrong. For example, Billboard and Ariana Grande. Spoiler Tag b/c example or not, this is still a tangent.

  Hide contents

Her new song debuted in the top 10 on the Hot 100, earning her the honor of being the first artist to have the leadout single of their first 4 albums all debut top 10. Yet in their Top 10 article, Billboard said this:

Billboard's article has to word it this way because it's technically possible for her/her label to change the final track listing of the album to not include the song. Given how successful the song is right now, her label has no reason to do so(especially since they've already said it will be on the album), but Billboard's wording still allows for the possibility so they can avoid potential "false advertisement" suits in the future.

This is what Brandon is doing. "The man they call Taln" ended up being Taln, and that was pretty clear to us a while back, but Brandon not confirming it gives him wiggle room. It's highly likely that Hoid used the Lerasium, but it's still possible that he didn't, which is reflected in Brandon's wording. He's said that newer Books will be the higher canon if they contradict older WoBs, but it's easier for him to leave options open from the start.

Personally, I kinda hope Hoid's Allomancy is just from his access to Medallions, for no better reason than because all of us are on the Lerasium train.

I think there is a chance that he is saving the bead of Lerasium for something, if he has not already used it to become Mistborn. It seems that he is collecting things across the Cosmere that are related to different Shards (moon scepter, lerasium, breath, white sand, etc.)

[RShara]

On 5/1/2018 at 11:56 AM, Fatikis said:

When asked a question of how Hoid used the Lerasium his reply was Hoid's goal was to become an Allomancer. That extremely heavily implies that Hoid used the Lerasium.

That's the point. It's heavily implied, but Brandon's Aes Sedai answers never directly say "Yes, he used the bead to become a Mistborn."

Most likely, yes, he did do that, but Brandon's been very cagey over it, probably because he enjoys trolling us ;).

[Fatikis]

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

That's the point. It's heavily implied, but Brandon's Aes Sedai answers never directly say "Yes, he used the bead to become a Mistborn."

Most likely, yes, he did do that, but Brandon's been very cagey over it, probably because he enjoys trolling us ;).

My point is that it is foolish to think Hoid has done anything other than the obvious without great evidence. There is pretty heavy evidence Hoid has taken the Lerasium. There is no evidence to the contrary. As such we should assume that he has taken it.

[RShara]

56 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

My point is that it is foolish to think Hoid has done anything other than the obvious without great evidence. There is pretty heavy evidence Hoid has taken the Lerasium. There is no evidence to the contrary. As such we should assume that he has taken it.

We certainly can do that and it is logical. The point is just that it's not verified.

[The One Who Connects]

41 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

My point is that it is foolish to think Hoid has done anything other than the obvious without great evidence. There is pretty heavy evidence Hoid has taken the Lerasium. There is no evidence to the contrary. As such we should assume that he has taken it.

That's not what we are arguing. Building a theory under the assumption that he burned the Lerasium is fine. Discussion things under the assumpton that he burned the Lerasium is fine. Arguing that the WoBs say something that they technically don't is the issue here.

• Hoid stole the Lerasium, this is absolutely what happened.
• Hoid burning the Lerasium is almost certainly what happened, but it is not absolutely what happened.
• Stating that "Hoid burned the Lerasium" is probably true, but it is not yet true until we have real confirmation.

Unconfirmed Hypotheses about the Cosmere are Schrodinger's WoB. Until Brandon tells us that something happened, it hasn't happened, even if it has. Your statement will retroactively be true if Brandon tells us that Hoid burned the Lerasium, but until that happens, the statement "Hoid burned the Lerasium" is not true, and you should word it in a way that reflects that. That's the only point we've been trying to get across.

---

In hindsight: All of this could have been avoided if you had typed "[Hoid] probably used it to become a Mistborn." Scion would have read a correct statement, moved on with his forum readings, and none of us would not have ended up hijacking this thread twice in two weeks. But none of us, myself included, are good at letting something drop, so here we are.

[Ashspren]

I agree with the "Hoid has probably burned the lerasium, but there is still a small chance that he hasn't" line of thinking. We know that there are different ways to gain allomantic powers, such as the medallions, but I think that this is now a question of the timeline. When do we see Hoid use allomancy? Is it before or after Mistborn Era 2? How much later than Mistborn Era 1? Or, is it during Era 1?

After any point in time after Era 1, he could have used the medallions. We don't know when the medallions were created— our buddy Allik doesn't give us any information about that. However, if this is during the events of Era 1, we can be certain that he burned the lerasium.

[Fezzik]

The only on screen usage was after era 2, during wor

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Ashspren said:

When do we see Hoid use allomancy?

During one of Shallan's flashbacks in WoR. The festival. (Chapter 45, for those who care)

20 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

Is it before or after Mistborn Era 2?

Mistborn Era 2 is planned to take place between SA 5 and 6, so.. this happened before Era 2. However, MB Era 1 is ~341 years before Era 2, and I'm fairly certain Shallan is younger than 340.

3 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

How much later than Mistborn Era 1?

Shallan is roughly 18 at the end of Oathbringer, and the Middlefest Fair Flashback is listed as "Three and a half years ago." The time gap from mid-WoR to End of OB is barely over 2 months(Icsachah is 10/8/5, Nanishah is 2/10/5, so... 110 days?

We're talking about 337 years after Era 1, give or take about 2 Rosharan months.

---

1 minute ago, John203 said:

The only on screen usage was after era 2, during wor

Era 2 is after SA 5 now.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Time-wise, where do the events of Bands of Mourning happen with respect to Words of Radiance?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
...So, Bands of Mourning, all the Wax & Wayne books take place after Stormlight 5, but I'm not sure if it happens after or before Stormlight 6, It'll have to wait, because there's a time jump between Stormlight 5 and 6 that I haven't exactly defined in the timeline yet.

[Fezzik]

10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Era 2 is after SA 5 now.

Yup. My bad.

[MarShadow]

On 4/29/2018 at 1:22 PM, Jeffo said:

Pomegranate seems like such a strange fruit for Hoid to be eating. Have we seen them anywhere else in the Cosmere? 

With such a small amount of information it seems like every detail has been very carefully and deliberately used.

Pomegranates are found on Scadrial.

[Ashspren]

51 minutes ago, MarShadow said:

Pomegranates are found on Scadrial.

Wow, I didn’t know that, thank you!

That further solidifies the fact that he just came back to Yolen after the events of Era 1.

Also, new question pertaining to the relationship between Hoid, Leras and Ati. Leras refers to Hoid as an “old friend” in Mistborn: Secret History. Was this literal, or just to say that they once knew each other? Was Hoid sad about the deaths of these two vessels?