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Avengers: Infinity War (Spoilers)


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I have gotten to see it twice and it is so much better the second time through.

@TheOrlionThatComesBefore

Spoiler
On 4/28/2018 at 5:14 PM, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

 The main issue with the cliffhanger is they started saying "Nah, it's a complete movie experience!"

 

In a way it is complete movie experience, the problem is that we are watching the movie from the wrong point of view. We have been trained by previous movies that the Avengers are the heroes, as such, we go into the movie expecting to watch the heroes prevail. This creates a problem, because everyone is the hero of their own story, and this story is about Thanos, not the Avengers. Thanos believes that he is right, he believes that what he is doing is the only way to save the universe. He even makes the comment that what he is doing is "a mercy", in his eyes, he is the hero and the Avengers are the villains that won't let him save them. Thanos is the protagonist, which in turn makes the Avengers antagonists of his story arc. The ending leaves Avengers broken and defeated in the same way that the ending of Avengers 1 left the Chitauri broken and defeated. If you watch it from Thanos's perspective it does not end on a cliffhanger. As far as he is concerned he won, he defeated his villains and achieved his goal. In a way, the hero did prevail, just not how we expected.

 
4

@Captains Domon

Spoiler
On 4/30/2018 at 6:10 PM, Captains Domon said:

3. I actually was rooting for Thanos for a bit.

 

Thanos is by far my favorite part of the movie, he is written and acted brilliantly. It is amazing how sympathetic he is, I found myself feeling bad for him a couple of times, then suddenly thinking "wait a minute, this guy is a madman!". It is a testament to the writing and acting of the character that we can find ourselves drawn into and even empathetic with the character. 

 
 

 

Spoiler

As far as how they are going to bring people back, I believe that most if not all of the ones that were killed by the snap will come back. Any that died prior to that will remain dead, I do not believe that they will bring Loki back again. The problem with that is that people not staying dead is a big problem in the comics. It kills any sense of danger to the characters because we all know they will just come back. Luckily they have stayed mostly away from it in the movies, the only reason they could explain it the first time was that Loki is the god of mischief. I don't feel like they would do it again. 

My belief on how they are going to bring back those that were dusted is that they are not actually dead, not like normal. I believe that they are all stuck inside the soul stone, in a weird soul dimension thing. This is partly because in one of the comics when Thanos snaps his fingers everyone is trapped in a weird mirror dimension thingy. I also believe that Captain Marvel is going to be pivotal in getting them out.

 
Edited by TheVillageIdiot
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Spoiler

I keep seeing people empathize with Thanos and I really just don't seem to connect in that way, the acting was brilliant but the character itself was probably the weakest point of the entire movie for me, the motivation just makes 0 sense, it feels like an attempt to shoehorn a current political issue into the movie. And then there's no actual discussion of that motive, just :
"why are you doing this?"  "there are too many people" "Oh, well you're still the antagonist so I'm still going to fight you"
No moral dilemma, no opposing views, just a veil of a motivation to provide justification for why he'd want to murder half the universe.

 

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18 minutes ago, Voidus said:
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I keep seeing people empathize with Thanos and I really just don't seem to connect in that way, the acting was brilliant but the character itself was probably the weakest point of the entire movie for me, the motivation just makes 0 sense, it feels like an attempt to shoehorn a current political issue into the movie. And then there's no actual discussion of that motive, just :
"why are you doing this?"  "there are too many people" "Oh, well you're still the antagonist so I'm still going to fight you"
No moral dilemma, no opposing views, just a veil of a motivation to provide justification for why he'd want to murder half the universe.

 

Spoiler

I think a strenght is that Thanos narrative is the Heros Journey. The Avengers could be seen as the antagonists, who are preventing him from saving the universe. And since he winds up winning in the end, that picture of him works even better. And you can really see how hard it was for him to achieve his victory. I love the moment in the end where Gamora asks him:

”What did it cost?”

and Thanos replies with:

”Everything.”

 

 

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This movie was summed up in one sentence at the very end after the credits.

Spoiler

Thanos will return.

 

Spoiler

It does seem obvious that everyone Thanos killed at the end will return to life.

 I had just watched thor ragnarok, so seeing all the characters dead in the first minutes of this film was somewhat jarring. 

I spent the entire movie half expecting Loki to appear out of thin air. Since he did not I guess he really is dead then? 

 

In the end this is still a movie I greatly enjoyed.

Edited by ghajan monk
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16 hours ago, Voidus said:
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I keep seeing people empathize with Thanos and I really just don't seem to connect in that way, the acting was brilliant but the character itself was probably the weakest point of the entire movie for me, the motivation just makes 0 sense, it feels like an attempt to shoehorn a current political issue into the movie. And then there's no actual discussion of that motive, just :
"why are you doing this?"  "there are too many people" "Oh, well you're still the antagonist so I'm still going to fight you"
No moral dilemma, no opposing views, just a veil of a motivation to provide justification for why he'd want to murder half the universe.

 

Spoiler

I mean, he has the discussion with Gaamora and Strange. What he believes, the evidence he uses to provide justification for his genocides, it's all there. 

Then he also has more emotions than other villains in the Marvel universe. He has sorrow, anguish, even a little empathy. 

So there are some points where the audience can connect, though to empathize? That might be going to far. Even though he pretty much has tears in his eyes during a lot of the scenes he has after he sacrifices Gaamora, one should not feel sorry, but disturbed. 

16 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:
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I think a strenght is that Thanos narrative is the Heros Journey. The Avengers could be seen as the antagonists, who are preventing him from saving the universe. And since he winds up winning in the end, that picture of him works even better. And you can really see how hard it was for him to achieve his victory. I love the moment in the end where Gamora asks him:

”What did it cost?”

and Thanos replies with:

”Everything.”

 

 

Quoted because I like it! 

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16 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:
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I think a strenght is that Thanos narrative is the Heros Journey. The Avengers could be seen as the antagonists, who are preventing him from saving the universe. And since he winds up winning in the end, that picture of him works even better. And you can really see how hard it was for him to achieve his victory. I love the moment in the end where Gamora asks him:

”What did it cost?”

and Thanos replies with:

”Everything.”

 

 

Spoiler

Like the actual Heroes journey? There are a couple of parallels but it doesn't perfectly match as far as we know. And without seeing that backstory it just seems incredibly hollow to me still. Like a last-minute attempt to try to provide justification.
And yeah that was a nice line, and excellently delivered but my question is still 'OK but what is that?' His sudden last minute reveal when he sacrificed Gamora felt really artificial to me. If he actually loved her so much that she was the most important thing in the world to him then that moment needed way more emotional impact than it had, he revealed that he loved her then instantly threw her to her death. No hesitation, no refusal, no deliberation. No one who actually loved someone like that should be able to make that decision that easily.

I get the feeling this is going to be like another Rogue One for me, where I just really didn't enjoy it but everyone else did. 

 

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I finally watched it, so I can be here now!

Spoiler

I’m sure this has been pointed out, but it seems like Doctor Strange wanted this to happen. Spider-Man’s death killed me by the way.

 

Edited by Kidpen
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1 hour ago, Kidpen said:

I finally watched it, so I can be here now!

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I’m sure this has been pointed out, but it seems like Doctor Strange wanted this to happen. Spider-Man’s death killed me by the way.

 

Spoiler

Did Spiderman's death not kill anyone? That was legitimately the most most traumatic scene in a Marvel movie I've ever seen.

 

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On 5/6/2018 at 0:08 AM, Voidus said:
Spoiler

No hesitation, no refusal, no deliberation. No one who actually loved someone like that should be able to make that decision that easily.

Spoiler

I've been seeing people talk about that on Reddit, and one person felt that it was to draw a parallel with Quill/Gamora and Wanda/Vision. They were all in situations dealing with doing what "needed to be done," even if it meant killing a loved one.

So many literary/media protagonists get hit with the moral dilemma and their hesitation allows the antagonist to get a victory/to get away/to etc... Those extra seconds spent hesitating can be the difference between success and failure. And in this movie, it kinda was: Quill hesitated, and Thanos escaped with Gamora. Wanda hesitated, and Thanos acquired the Mind Stone. Thanos was able to acquire the Soul Stone because he didn't hesitate, which showed his dedication. Quill appeared to have a moment where he wondered whether or not it was right, but Thanos doesn't have that. He believes in the righteousness of his cause so strongly that the aforementioned "hard choice" didn't stop him.

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Fringe Theory Here:

Infinity War claimed to be the "most ambitious crossover in history", this got a lot of flak. But what if this was actually true? I personally believe that this is actually a huge cosmere story in disguise. What if each of the characters and their powers are actually using forms of Investiture? Their backstories have just been huge cover-ups for when Marvel reveals that Brandon has been writing the movies all along.

The Infinity Gauntlet is actually a massively powerful fabrial. Each of the stones is a perfectly cut gemstone that most likely holds some form of godspren. 

Iron Man's suit's amazing ability to shape itself into whatever he wanted was waved away with the word "nanobots". However it makes a lot more sense that it is actually a form of Shardplate. Although we don't exactly know how Plate works, its quite likely that it could take the form of Iron Man armor. Tony Stark's flight can be attributed to the Surge of Gravitation. It makes no sense that a heavy suit of armor could fly under its own power solely relying on the little blaster things, so the idea that he is using lashings clears that up. The Shardplate is clearly augmented someway however, in order for it to shoot missiles and provide communications. Perhaps it is a blend of modern tech and Plate. In addition, the laser bursts he shoots could be simply something added onto the Plate, but since we are already assuming Stark has access to Gravitation, it is far more likely that the blasts are simply a blast of the Surge of Division. This would put Stark as a Skybreaker of at least the Fourth Ideal. This fits well with the fact that he was willing to bind the Avengers to the laws of the United Nations.

The Hulk is some form of Hemalurgic Construct very similar to Koloss. His spikes allow him to Compound pewter, giving him crazy amounts of physical strength. I'm not sure where the spikes were placed in order to allow him to control his transformation. There is so little that we know about Hemalurgy and constructs that this is extremely plausible, especially because of the fact that Koloss turn blue.

Thor's hammer and later his axe thing is a type 4 biochromatic entity. These extremely Invested objects have been given commands that allow only Thor to wield them.

Captain America and a lot of other heroes are twinborn using Allomantic Pewter and Feruchemical Gold, allowing them to be stronger and heal faster.

Rocket Racoon is a Kandra, not much more to say on this.

Spider-Man is an extreme form of an Awakening Savant. He has created a type of extremely strong and lightweight string that he gives a command such as "Grab Things" I'm not sure which heightening he is at, but he clearly has a lot of power and skill in order to swing from line to line so effortlessly. 

Doctor Strange is using a magic system currently unseen in the cosmere, although it has numerous similarities to AonDor.

In conclusion it is highly probable that all of the Marvel Heroes are using some form of shardic Investiture, I have no doubt that at some point it will be revealed that the MCU is part of the cosmere. Any holes or missing explanations in this theory will likely be explained in later cosmere novels.

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I agree with other posters who've said that Thanos, for as good of a villian as he is, has a weak and questionable motivation: The main problem in the whole universe is ... overpopulation? So when the population goes up again, he goes on his murdering rampage again? and again? How many sentient beings is "enough"? How does he know? - - maybe with all 6 stones he's smart/wise enough, but not when he started his programme.

Another thing that hit me, reading through the comments in this thread: Where was Valkyrie? I didn't see her at all. Admittedly I've only seen the film once so far, so maybe it just flew by me too fast.

It was interesting how Thanos, at the end, is presented as having found "peace" on a mountainside overlooking a valley; it reminded me a lot of Odin in Thor: Ragnarok, finding "peace" sitting on a cliff overlooking the ocean.

My current theory (and FYI I am ALWAYS wrong on these things): Gamora is still alive inside the Soul Stone, and she will find a way to manipulate Thanos or hijack the Gauntlet or get out or something.

This next year will fly by! (Which will come first: Wax & Wayne 4 or Avengers 4? Can't recall... ;))

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37 minutes ago, Lump-wing said:

I agree with other posters who've said that Thanos, for as good of a villian as he is, has a weak and questionable motivation: The main problem in the whole universe is ... overpopulation? So when the population goes up again, he goes on his murdering rampage again? and again? How many sentient beings is "enough"? How does he know? - - maybe with all 6 stones he's smart/wise enough, but not when he started his programme.

Another thing that hit me, reading through the comments in this thread: Where was Valkyrie? I didn't see her at all. Admittedly I've only seen the film once so far, so maybe it just flew by me too fast.

It was interesting how Thanos, at the end, is presented as having found "peace" on a mountainside overlooking a valley; it reminded me a lot of Odin in Thor: Ragnarok, finding "peace" sitting on a cliff overlooking the ocean.

My current theory (and FYI I am ALWAYS wrong on these things): Gamora is still alive inside the Soul Stone, and she will find a way to manipulate Thanos or hijack the Gauntlet or get out or something.

This next year will fly by! (Which will come first: Wax & Wayne 4 or Avengers 4? Can't recall... ;))

1) Thanos is a manifestation of a widely spread and historical belief on population control. What he is resolving is what he views as the immediate issue, not the possibility of it recurring. That's because, in his mind, if you don't solve the immediate problem now there won't be a chance to solve the potential recurring problem. 

2) The directors said Valkyrie is alive. That's all we know, there's no indication of that in the movie. 

3) In the comics, Gamora's soul was in the Soul Stone once, so that's a possibility. 

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3 hours ago, Gray to said:

The real question is who'd win in a fight: Thanos with all 6 stones or Hoid, and he can hurt people?

Hoid insults Thanos' mother, drops his mic and is voted to have unanimously won the fight.
... you meant an insult fight right?

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7 hours ago, Voidus said:

Hoid insults Thanos' mother, drops his mic and is voted to have unanimously won the fight.
... you meant an insult fight right?

Of course.

I bet they're on a stage and after Hoid completely roasts him, he jumps off and crowd surfs away

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I finally got the chance to see it today and can I just say... GAHHHH!

Spoiler

I'm really split right now between wanting those who were snap-killed to be brought back and my hate of constant resurrection. I feel it's an over used function that removes the viewer's investment in the characters. If you know they're going to live, you have no connection to their death. (It's part of my problem with Loki's death. He's "died" enough that during this death scene, I couldn't accept it. It still doesn't feel real.)

I understand it's pretty common in the comics to bring characters back from the dead, but it takes away some of the consequences. I agree with what's been said. There has to be a real price to bring them back.

It would make sense that it would be for the old generation to sacrifice themselves to bring back the new generation.

 

Edited by Elandera
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Just saw it, actually, and I have a few thoughts.

Spoiler

First, the beginning felt rushed, choppy, and it took me a second to settle into the pace of the movie. It was very much fast paced, which it needed to be for this much information.

I think it's obvious that the poofed half of the universe will return, somehow, because of commercial reasons. However, I would be at peace if they didn't, barring the several movies lined up involving dissolved characters.

What made me most interested is Dr. Strange's plan. He saw over four million possible futures, and laid out everything to ensure victory. However, Thanos still gets every Infinity Stone, accomplishes his plan, and Strange himself gets poofed. I theorize that in each of these futures, a different distribution of people got dissolved. With trillions of beings in the universe, the possible combinations of dead and not dead are virtually infinite. The reason why Strange decided that one future as the one leading to victory is because of who was spared. Notice how the original Avengers are all still left at the end. Strange knew that they had the ability to reverse what Thanos had done, and would figure out how to do it. In all of the other possible futures, not all of the necessary people were there, and thus victory was impossible. Thanos would get the full gauntlet inevitably, but the aftermath defines it. "We have entered the endgame."

 

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On 5/9/2018 at 2:52 PM, Lump-wing said:

I agree with other posters who've said that Thanos, for as good of a villian as he is, has a weak and questionable motivation: The main problem in the whole universe is ... overpopulation? So when the population goes up again, he goes on his murdering rampage again? and again? How many sentient beings is "enough"? How does he know? - - maybe with all 6 stones he's smart/wise enough, but not when he started his programme.

The way I saw it,

Spoiler

 

Titan was heading for collapse, and no one, Thanos included, could think of a working solution. So Thanos went with the next best thing, which is to delay the inevitable and provide people with more time to come up with and implement ideas. People didn't like his method of extending the time, so they didn't go through with it, and the aforementioned collapse happened anyway.

This left Thanos is a bad spot, and three of the biggest things in his head would be:
1) If they went through with my idea, would they still be around?
2) Other worlds must be heading for collapse too.
3) I can't let this happen again.

To satisfy thought 1, Thanos has to do a proof of concept. Thought 2 is basic logic, and thought 3 is pure emotion. Combining the two is where the Infinity Stones come in, since beforehand he and his forces were culling worlds manually. Gathering the stones offers him several advantages:
1) Using the stones would be quick and painless(relatively)
2) Removes all trace of bias(since the manual method would be unintentionally biased towards wiping out military forces)
3) Happening all at once makes sure that none of the worlds hit the collapse-point while he's away culling a different one(satisfying thought three)

Throughout all of this, one thing hasn't changed: Thanos doesn't have a permanent solution. He couldn't come up with one for the people he knew, he can't come up with one now for countless civilizations he doesn't know.

 

His entire goal is to give all of creation more time to come up with solutions of their own. It's never been "my idea saves the universe," it's always been "my idea gives the universe more time to save themselves." People talk about his method only delays the inevitable, but that's the point, and that's also why he said that he would rest after doing the snap. In his mind: After the snap, his job is done, and it's time for others to take up the reins.

Edited by The One Who Connects
spoiler tag
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7 hours ago, Kobold King said:

There's also the possibility that Thanos is actually just certifiably insane, in keeping with his comics title of "The Mad Titan."

Spoiler

After the trauma of having lost his homeworld, I wouldn't be surprised if he's become unhinged. That might manifest in why he was obsessed with doing it all now, as opposed to on a world-to-world basis if/when it becomes necessary.

But I still think his wider motivations make sane sense if you look at him as someone who realizes that he doesn't have all the answers.

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On 5/14/2018 at 11:23 AM, The One Who Connects said:

The way I saw it,

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Titan was heading for collapse, and no one, Thanos included, could think of a working solution. So Thanos went with the next best thing, which is to delay the inevitable and provide people with more time to come up with and implement ideas. People didn't like his method of extending the time, so they didn't go through with it, and the aforementioned collapse happened anyway.

This left Thanos is a bad spot, and three of the biggest things in his head would be:
1) If they went through with my idea, would they still be around?
2) Other worlds must be heading for collapse too.
3) I can't let this happen again.

To satisfy thought 1, Thanos has to do a proof of concept. Thought 2 is basic logic, and thought 3 is pure emotion. Combining the two is where the Infinity Stones come in, since beforehand he and his forces were culling worlds manually. Gathering the stones offers him several advantages:
1) Using the stones would be quick and painless(relatively)
2) Removes all trace of bias(since the manual method would be unintentionally biased towards wiping out military forces)
3) Happening all at once makes sure that none of the worlds hit the collapse-point while he's away culling a different one(satisfying thought three)

Throughout all of this, one thing hasn't changed: Thanos doesn't have a permanent solution. He couldn't come up with one for the people he knew, he can't come up with one now for countless civilizations he doesn't know.

 

His entire goal is to give all of creation more time to come up with solutions of their own. It's never been "my idea saves the universe," it's always been "my idea gives the universe more time to save themselves." People talk about his method only delays the inevitable, but that's the point, and that's also why he said that he would rest after doing the snap. In his mind: After the snap, his job is done, and it's time for others to take up the reins.

Warning: I'm not spoiler cutting. The title of this thread states that it's full of spoilers, so I don't really understand why the cuts started in the first place. (I deliberately avoided the thread until after I'd seen the movie.)

It's an interesting thought, but I just don't think it's borne out by the narrative. Thanos's own words never indicate that this idea ever even crossed his mind. He's going to kill half the universe and leave it in "perfect balance" - if he had thought there were other solutions, I feel as though he would have acted on those once he had the gauntlet. Instead, he makes it clear that he thinks killing half of everybody is the only solution.

And it's even worse than it looks on paper, because he never considered collateral damage. The after-credits stinger showed some of that right off the bat - how many pilots dusted, bringing their aircraft into fiery crashes? How many car accidents killed more people? How many pieces of heavy construction equipment were in mid-job when suddenly their operators were gone?

To say nothing of infrastructure and simple things like food distribution - half of the personnel responsible for growing, processing, and distributing most of the world's food supply is gone. What about kids whose luck of the draw dusted all of their parental figures? What about power plant operations? What about doctors and nurses and other hospital workers?

Earth is going to be lucky if even a quarter of its population survives the year.

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11 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

Warning: I'm not spoiler cutting. The title of this thread states that it's full of spoilers, so I don't really understand why the cuts started in the first place. (I deliberately avoided the thread until after I'd seen the movie.)

I did that spoiler tag myself. All the other posts were in tags, so force of habit made me change mine.

12 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

if he had thought there were other solutions, I feel as though he would have acted on those once he had the gauntlet.

I remember something to do with Gamora's homeworld, where it started thriving at some point after his forces did their culling. I'd have to see how it was actually presented in the exact scene, but I never looked at it as him halving the population "fixed" things so much as the survivors changed what their way of life after the halving, which is why they are thriving now. If there's a line that presented it differently, then I'm just wrong, but this is the impression I've got, and other discussions about it haven't really changed what I think I know.

One thing a lot of people have pointed out involving other solutions is the difficulty. Halving the population "doubles" the available resources, so to speak. To achieve a resource double without killing would be much more complex. What should/shouldn't you double? Double the water on a planet where it's toxic, and everybody dies. Double the water on a planet where it's useful, like earth and well.. "Ask Noah." Double the lumber/stone/other for building, where do you put it? Some land can't grow food on it, etc... I'm sure he could have probably figured out all of that stuff given enough time(especially if he had all 6 stones), but by that point, it'd be too late to override his conviction to the original plan.

33 minutes ago, Kaymyth said:

And it's even worse than it looks on paper, because he never considered collateral damage.
Earth is going to be lucky if even a quarter of its population survives the year.

Yea that's gonna be a problem, but I don't think it'll be as bad as you think it will. (call me an optimist, for lack of a more accurate term)

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1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I did that spoiler tag myself. All the other posts were in tags, so force of habit made me change mine.

Yeah, that was meant as more in general, rather than just directed at you. Everyone is being so adorably extra careful about spoilers, but I'm just gonna be mean and say, "Nope! Thread says spoilers, so it's got spoilers!"

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I remember something to do with Gamora's homeworld, where it started thriving at some point after his forces did their culling. I'd have to see how it was actually presented in the exact scene, but I never looked at it as him halving the population "fixed" things so much as the survivors changed what their way of life after the halving, which is why they are thriving now. If there's a line that presented it differently, then I'm just wrong, but this is the impression I've got, and other discussions about it haven't really changed what I think I know.

One thing a lot of people have pointed out involving other solutions is the difficulty. Halving the population "doubles" the available resources, so to speak. To achieve a resource double without killing would be much more complex. What should/shouldn't you double? Double the water on a planet where it's toxic, and everybody dies. Double the water on a planet where it's useful, like earth and well.. "Ask Noah." Double the lumber/stone/other for building, where do you put it? Some land can't grow food on it, etc... I'm sure he could have probably figured out all of that stuff given enough time(especially if he had all 6 stones), but by that point, it'd be too late to override his conviction to the original plan.

The thing of it is, so many resources are renewable. Thanos is suddenly the most powerful being in the universe - he can just impose his will on everyone and force them into sustainable living. He can just magic up water purification devices that efficiently recycle existing water and enrich the existing arable land, then enforce everyone learning how to handle sustainable farming. Heck, he can probably even tinker with plant genetics to increase food yields. Give everybody plans for efficient renewable energy generators.

Or, you know, just make sure every sentient species in the universe has access to affordable birth control. Populations tend to even out on their own when this is available.

He's literally got the power of the universe at his fingertips. He can do anything. And yet he chooses mass genocide as a reasonable solution.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Yea that's gonna be a problem, but I don't think it'll be as bad as you think it will. (call me an optimist, for lack of a more accurate term)

Honestly, I think I'm understating the problem. Earth is about to dive into a massive economic collapse. After the Snap, millions will die.

His history of culling planets is a lot different from what he winds up doing. At least before, people KNEW what happened. There was some control to the culling. With the Snap, it's just...random. And the vast majority of people in the universe are going to have no idea why half of their number just crumbled to dust. The mass panic that results is going to be epic in scope.

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