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Autonomy and Suns


Fatikis

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I'm pretty sure Autonomy has taken a new approach to investing in systems. Instead of investing directly in planets she is investing in the suns of the systems.

On Taldain we know investiture is coming from the sun.
In the Drominad System we have all of the planets named 'X of Sun." Which is an odd naming system, but alone not much evidence.
On Scadrial the Thousand Eyes of Trell are all stars.

Now in Mistborn Era2 we have another interesting bit.

Quote

The light ahead suddenly rolled outward, and Wax found that they’d been rounding a planet. They stood high above it, and had stepped from darkness into sunlight, which let Wax see the world below, bathed in a calm, cool light.
Beyond that hung a haze of red. All around, pressing in upon the world. He could feel it choking him, a miasma of dread and destruction.
“Perhaps,” Harmony said softly, “I have already done just as you suggest. You do not see it, because the worst never reaches you.”
“What is it?” Wax asked, trying to take in that vast redness. It beat inward, but he could see something, a thin strip of light—like a bubble around the world—stopping it.
“A representation,” Harmony said. “A crude one, perhaps.” He looked to Wax and smiled, like a father at a wide-eyed child.
[...]
“And when I hold back, staying my hand from protecting those below,” Harmony said, “I must do it out of trust in what people can do on their own.” He glanced toward the red haze. “And because I have other problems to occupy me.”
“You didn’t tell me what it was,” Wax said.
“That is because I do not know.”
“That … frightens me.”
Harmony looked to him. “It should.”

After stepping into the light Wax sees a red haze. The haze beating downward on Scadrial. Beating a very odd word choice. Not battering like an outside force trying to get in. Beating a word often used in reference to sunlight. A thin strip of light around the world preventing it. This almost as if being deflected by the planets Ionosphere obviously amplified by Sazed.

When Sazed ascended he put a stop to the ashmounts, and as a side effect of the ascension Scadrials invested mists are beginning to recede. Scadrial mists and the Ashmounts would have drastically reduced the amount of radiation hitting Scadrial from the sun. 

Another interesting fact in Trellagism Nalt the jealous brother shines his single eye during the day.

That is all I have for now, but I would be interesting in hearing thoughts. 

Edited by Fatikis
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1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

Autonomy primarily invest in Taldain in the clouds. The sunlight goes through the clouds, and is then invested, before hitting the planet.

Uh, no, it's definitely the sun.

 

Quote

swieczq

Would someone with enough knowledge be able to use Autonomy’s Investiture if Taldain’s star was seen from his world?

Brandon Sanderson

So I’m on a world and I see Taldain’s star, what you're asking if someone could use the Investiture? Oh, OK I see. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. That’s good! You stumped me. I haven’t gotten that question before. I would say yes, if the light particles are reaching you. I mean technically you could use the light from one of those stars to power a solar sail so…

source

 

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I read somewhere that Autonomy charged the sunlight in the clouds, but its been awhile and this was the closest I could find.

Spoiler

Questioner

What is the Shard on White Sand? Because we've both read White Sand.

Brandon Sanderson

The Shard-- So what the Shard is doing is, the Shard is the Sand God. But I didn't bring it out much, there's only one Shard on the planet. And the Shard actually kind of resides in the atmosphere and stuff like that but we decided to bring the Shard out a little bit more in the comic book so when you read that you'll be able to find a little more.

Questioner

Does it take effect in the Darkside?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it does.

source

So Invested Sun wins.

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2 hours ago, MountainKing said:

But this is also very dangerous because by investing in stars Autonomy is spreading his/her/its investiture onto all the planets.

I don't think it is as dangerous as it seems. It is actually very smart.

A huge limitation of most shards is that the investiture is all tied in with the vessel. The human or other sentient vessel is finite when the power is vast. The vessels are essentially the weakest part of the shard. As we know Preservation doesn't just exist on Scadrial. Preservation is everywhere in the cosmere. Sazed's mind cannot process the entirety of this and so he is forced to focus on Scadrial. 

Spreading the investiture out to avatars allows Autonomy to become aware of Autonomous investiture not specifically located on her planets. The avatars are essentially cataloging and using investiture that while always belonged to Autonomy she was not aware of do to the limited nature of the vessels. Because of this Autonomy has more usable investiture than any of the other shards.

Basically Autonomy has found a way around the limited mental capacity of vessels by delegating.

Edited by Fatikis
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Its not about spreading investiture around.

Brandon has said all the shards permeates the Cosmere.

Autonomy is everywhere, same with other shards.

Its just that their awareness is finite, even with it expanding from ascension.

I like the theory someone wrote here about Autonomy spawning avatars around the Cosmere (see letters from OB). Thereby increasing her awareness and in turn giving her more access to her full Cosmere wide investiture.

Which brings a question to mind....

Q: How may avatars would Autonomy need, to have enough access to her full Cosmere wide investiture that she would be equal in power to a double shard like Harmony?

....

Edit. 

Fatikis, you beat me to it. 

Edited by Thanatos
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12 minutes ago, TheHeadHancho said:

I think that the red glow might be foreshadowing the end of storm light. It reminds me of Odium a lot and I kinda theorize he will escape. I don’t really have evidence, it’s just a thought. 

Era 2 takes place after SA 5 but before SA10, so I don't see how it can be Odium.

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@RShara We still don’t know the ending of that arc. You assume Odium won’t gain anything, and there’s already a thread on which you stated your points, I simply don’t agree. I think Odium has more of a motive than Autonomy, whom we know basically nothing about character wise.

quite honestly, we don’t know enough about Odium’s inprisonment to make such judgements, in my opinion.

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11 minutes ago, TheHeadHancho said:

@RShara We still don’t know the ending of that arc. You assume Odium won’t gain anything, and there’s already a thread on which you stated your points, I simply don’t agree. I think Odium has more of a motive than Autonomy, whom we know basically nothing about character wise.

quite honestly, we don’t know enough about Odium’s inprisonment to make such judgements, in my opinion.

Yep, which is why I didn't go over it all again.  I didn't say I didn't think Odium wouldn't gain anything, I said that I didn't think Odium would get free.

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17 minutes ago, RShara said:

Yep, which is why I didn't go over it all again.  I didn't say I didn't think Odium wouldn't gain anything, I said that I didn't think Odium would get free.

He doesn’t have to be free. He could be using the whole infinite power thing and influencing, subtlety enough so that Harmony didn’t know who it was, Scadrial.

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I'm sure he could manage some small influences while trapped, but what was happening on Scadrial seemed like far more than that.  Also, while his investiture might be everywhere, his mind is finite, and is trapped on Roshar.

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The problem with the whole 'infinite power' thing is that the Shards have to know about it and have a connection to it in order to do anything with it. The Vessels don't have infinitely powerful minds and even if there's all that power out there, they can't actually use it without doing something first to recognize it. Odium has been kind of stuck on Roshar for thousands and thousands of years and two Shards and Frost agree that he's contained and unable to affect the Cosmere at large.

3 hours ago, TheHeadHancho said:

I think that the red glow might be foreshadowing the end of storm light. It reminds me of Odium a lot and I kinda theorize he will escape. I don’t really have evidence, it’s just a thought. 

Red isn't really 'Odium;s color' any more than black and white are Ruin and Preservation's colors; In Cosmere-wide terms that association just isn't meaningful. Red has a specific meaning but it's not linked to any one shard. It represents one Shard corrupting or coopting another's Investiture. So we can't really use the color to assume it relates to Odium, especially as Odium should still be trapped in the Rosharan System.

Also, while I really don't think that Odium is going to be freed by the end of SA5 and that's an argument against a connection, there are two other bits of evidence that really weigh against it. First, Hoid is on Scadrial and paying social calls. Given the conflict between him and Rayse, I very much doubt Hoid would be showing up at weddings just to congratulate friends and he certainly wouldn't be doing it on the number one world on Odiim's Revised Hit List. With Rayse being willing to nuke a city on the possibility that it might kill Hoid, I don't think the man would want to paint such a big target on his back as to go to a planet that he knows Rayse will be targeting.

Also, and this involves an Oathbringer spoiler

Spoiler

Remember how Harmony tells Wax that he doesn't know what the red light is? Well, Harmony should certainly know about Odium by that point. He got a letter from Hoid and while we don't know exactly what was in it, we do know that Hoid requested help from Harmony and we know that the other two letters he wrote specifically refered to Odium, so it's a safe bet that the letter Harmony got was the same request. So he should have had some idea what the light was, if Odium is involved.

 

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5 minutes ago, Weltall said:

The problem with the whole 'infinite power' thing is that the Shards have to know about it and have a connection to it in order to do anything with it. The Vessels don't have infinitely powerful minds and even if there's all that power out there, they can't actually use it without doing something first to recognize it. Odium has been kind of stuck on Roshar for thousands and thousands of years and two Shards and Frost agree that he's contained and unable to affect the Cosmere at large.

Red isn't really 'Odium;s color' any more than black and white are Ruin and Preservation's colors; In Cosmere-wide terms that association just isn't meaningful. Red has a specific meaning but it's not linked to any one shard. It represents one Shard corrupting or coopting another's Investiture. So we can't really use the color to assume it relates to Odium, especially as Odium should still be trapped in the Rosharan System.

Also, while I really don't think that Odium is going to be freed by the end of SA5 and that's an argument against a connection, there are two other bits of evidence that really weigh against it. First, Hoid is on Scadrial and paying social calls. Given the conflict between him and Rayse, I very much doubt Hoid would be showing up at weddings just to congratulate friends and he certainly wouldn't be doing it on the number one world on Odiim's Revised Hit List. With Rayse being willing to nuke a city on the possibility that it might kill Hoid, I don't think the man would want to paint such a big target on his back as to go to a planet that he knows Rayse will be targeting.

Also, and this involves an Oathbringer spoiler

  Hide contents

Remember how Harmony tells Wax that he doesn't know what the red light is? Well, Harmony should certainly know about Odium by that point. He got a letter from Hoid and while we don't know exactly what was in it, we do know that Hoid requested help from Harmony and we know that the other two letters he wrote specifically refered to Odium, so it's a safe bet that the letter Harmony got was the same request. So he should have had some idea what the light was, if Odium is involved.

 

Such good points.  Stealing ;)

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I find it unlikely that Autonomy is the one attacking Scadrial, or at least that Autonomy is the one backing the Set because the Set is trying to seize power and control. Autonomy is about self government and independence, meaning that Autonomy would have no government, not a secret government. I think it is more likely that one (or more) of the 6 unknown shards is attacking Scadrial.

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Just now, Ishar said:

I find it unlikely that Autonomy is the one attacking Scadrial, or at least that Autonomy is the one backing the Set because the Set is trying to seize power and control. Autonomy is about self government and independence, meaning that Autonomy would have no government, not a secret government. I think it is more likely that one (or more) of the 6 unknown shards is attacking Scadrial.

I think we might be seeing a autonomous pantheon that is fighting itself. If Autonomy is both Nalt and Trell then Nalt can be the villain killing Sazed, and Trell can swoop in as a hero stopping them.
 

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7 minutes ago, Ishar said:

I find it unlikely that Autonomy is the one attacking Scadrial, or at least that Autonomy is the one backing the Set because the Set is trying to seize power and control. Autonomy is about self government and independence, meaning that Autonomy would have no government, not a secret government. I think it is more likely that one (or more) of the 6 unknown shards is attacking Scadrial.

I think the red mist is tied in to the metal that Bleeder uses.  If so, then it's from a Shard that we've seen.

Quote

Chaos

I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me.

*written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like--

Chaos

You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance--

Brandon Sanderson

I know.

Chaos

--I asked you a question that was too much.

Brandon Sanderson

…you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me.

*writes* Yes.

Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment and Autonomy
source

 

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A point of contention. SfSitFoH had come out, so we had seen pieces of Ambition. Brandon has been that nitpicky before, like with the 4 shards wob from way back when, when he counted having seen Odium's influence in the selish system (before WoK had come out)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202-barnes-and-noble-book-club-qa/#e5943

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On 4/21/2018 at 6:31 PM, Fatikis said:

I don't think it is as dangerous as it seems. It is actually very smart.

A huge limitation of most shards is that the investiture is all tied in with the vessel. The human or other sentient vessel is finite when the power is vast. The vessels are essentially the weakest part of the shard. As we know Preservation doesn't just exist on Scadrial. Preservation is everywhere in the cosmere. Sazed's mind cannot process the entirety of this and so he is forced to focus on Scadrial. 

Spreading the investiture out to avatars allows Autonomy to become aware of Autonomous investiture not specifically located on her planets. The avatars are essentially cataloging and using investiture that while always belonged to Autonomy she was not aware of do to the limited nature of the vessels. Because of this Autonomy has more usable investiture than any of the other shards.

Basically Autonomy has found a way around the limited mental capacity of vessels by delegating.

Yeah but the investiture of each shard isn't spread evenly, so there could be huge swathes of space without any autonomy investiture, So if Autonomy would send an avatar to one these areas, and have them invest in a sun. The sun rays would spread Autonomy's investiture throughout a region of the cosmere that was previously without or had little of Autonomy's investiture.

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13 hours ago, Ishar said:

I find it unlikely that Autonomy is the one attacking Scadrial, or at least that Autonomy is the one backing the Set because the Set is trying to seize power and control. Autonomy is about self government and independence, meaning that Autonomy would have no government, not a secret government. I think it is more likely that one (or more) of the 6 unknown shards is attacking Scadrial.

It is interesting that you think Autonomy is backing the Set yet not attacking Scadrial.

From the Set's Faceless Immortal the end of Bands of Mourning to Edwarn Ladrian.

Quote

Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead.

 

Edited by Fatikis
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13 hours ago, Ishar said:

I find it unlikely that Autonomy is the one attacking Scadrial, or at least that Autonomy is the one backing the Set because the Set is trying to seize power and control. Autonomy is about self government and independence, meaning that Autonomy would have no government, not a secret government. I think it is more likely that one (or more) of the 6 unknown shards is attacking Scadrial.

Keep in mind, the Sand Lord worshiped on Taldain is Autonomy. And the religion worshiping the Sand Lord is the foundation for an entire people's governing. So Autonomy does not appear to be against governance. 

Also, the intents of the shards influence what actions the shards take. For instance, preservation wanted to preserve. Yes, he liked people who preserved, but that was secondary to him preserving. He thought the Lord Ruler was the best thing ever, because he never died, even if LR caused a lot of death. So Autonomy might like people that choose to take over other people, as long as it is an autonomous choice, like the set. 

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57 minutes ago, Fatikis said:

It is interesting that you think Autonomy is backing the Set yet not attacking Scadrial.

From the Set's Faceless Immortal the end of Bands of Mourning to Edwarn Ladrian.

 

I actually said the opposite... that Autonomy is NOT backing the set, but could be attacking Scadrial.

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14 minutes ago, Ishar said:

 

I actually said the opposite... that Autonomy is NOT backing the set, but could be attacking Scadrial.

Sorry, I misunderstood. It is worded in a weird way.

If the Set's Faceless Immortal is going to remove life on Scadrial does that not mean that Autonomy was helping the Set and attacking Scadrial?

Edited by Fatikis
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