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[All Series Spoilers][Unpublished works] Interlinked theories - Cosmere


Ixthos

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[This topic is still being updated - I hope everyone has a great day!]

Hi guys, I hope everyone is having a good day. This is a summary of several theories, observations, and questions I have had while reading Brandon's Cosmere stories.

This post is set up as follows:

Please note that, in order to keep with the topic restrictions, theories and observations and questions for White Sand, Aether of Night, and Dragonsteel are in separate topics in their respective subforums, linked both to this main topic and from this main topic. Each of those topics is in a sense simply the corresponding sections of this topic moved to its own seperate area. At present the Dragonsteel section is down but may be back.

I include a brief explanation as to why I have the theories and observations, but I won't post links to quotes and such initially - if anyone would like to know further on the reasons for certain theories I will elaborate, but the size of this post means that to keep it readable I will be sparing on detail. If you are interested in further elaboration I would be able to post an expansion on any of these theories and observations and questions with links to explain the reasons behind them, and would then add a link to thsi post to allow those interested to find the new topic explaining further.

I pray God blesses and guides you!

 


 
 
 

 
 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69077-oball-series-spoilersunpublished-works-mistborn-especially-era-4-and-conflux/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69136-the-traveller-and-the-letters/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69137-dual-splinter-core-with-128kb-of-copper-access-memory/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69220-shard-metal-alloys/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/70225-a-cool-breeze-passed-through-the-room-while-ash-fell-from-the-sky/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/70795-obsecret-history-taln/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/73347-illegal-feruchemy/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/74308-spheres-and-mist/

 

Ambitions corpse is present at the location of Silverlight. It would be odd that Khriss didn't mention this in the essay for Threnody, but the name Silverlight, and the implications that it is an ambitious project that people from multiple worlds are present at might indicate that it is present.

Ambition is associated with silver

Ambition's corpse is Silverlight

Fighter, Mage, Thief (and Cleric)

Surge powers, the essences, and unique Order combinations

Lightweaving powers - lasers and radio

 

Lerasium, when alloyed with another shard metal, would allow the allomancer to use that metal.

Lerasium allows access to the power of other shards

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/78164-each-order-gains-plate-slightly-differently-but-with-similar-principles/

Cosmere undead

Shard vessels - spren, knights, several people, and (fictional takes on) multiple personality disorder

The Knights might have to learn to Voidbind

 

Trell is a part of Autonomy actively collecting power from other shards and intends to overthrow them, including the other parts of Autonomy

Trell is an intent-corrupted, rogue part of Autonomy

 

 

identity and connection (soulcas)

 

links

Spoiler

Also, for those who are interested, here is my Introduction thread, and a few of the more 'just for fun' links ;-)

 

 

I truly hope you all have a great day :-)

2 c http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69077-oball-series-spoilersunpublished-works-mistborn-especially-era-4-and-conflux/

3  http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69136-the-traveller-and-the-letters/

1 c http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69137-dual-splinter-core-with-128kb-of-copper-access-memory/

1 c http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/69220-shard-metal-alloys/

2 r http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/70795-obsecret-history-taln/

1/2 s http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/73347-illegal-feruchemy/

2 c http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/74308-spheres-and-mist/

2 c Ambition's corpse is Silverlight

1/2 c Fighter, Mage, Thief (and Cleric)

1 r Surge powers, the essences, and unique Order combinations

1 r Lightweaving powers - lasers and radio

1 c Lerasium allows access to the power of other shards

1 r http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/78164-each-order-gains-plate-slightly-differently-but-with-similar-principles/

2 c Cosmere undead

2 c Shard vessels - spren, knights, several people, and (fictional takes on) multiple personality disorder

1 r The Knights might have to learn to Voidbind

2 c Trell is an intent-corrupted, rogue part of Autonomy

1 c https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/81377-mistborn-era-3-and-stormlight-and-elantris-will-be-conflux-series-in-part/

1 s https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/82737-spoken-language-and-command-based-magic-on-sel/

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/82808-hangul-hanzi-and-sel/

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/82928-spren-awakening-and-metalminds-in-the-cognitive-realm/

Glys is equal parts Honour, Cultivation, and Odium

 

metallic arts cyborg

shattering definit

 

possible grouping - magic first with cosmere and then scadrial, roshar, sel, subheadings for talking about the different systems. second section is the story, last is observations. only a single layer of spoiler tags for contents and one additional layer for a general summary so as to prevent the tower

 

test - place a 1 for magic systems, 2 for setting and stories, 3 for observations c for cosmere, s for scadrial, r for roshar, e for sel, etc.

 

Original format of the post - kept for posterity

Spoiler

(Note - I will complete this slightly later, but it is getting a bit long and I am loosing track of where I'm writing. I'll finish the remaining sections slightly later)

Hi guys, I hope everyone is having a good day. This is a summary of several theories, observations, and questions I have had while reading Brandon's Cosmere stories.

This post is set up as follows: Main Cosmere settings, being the Cosmere as a whole, Scadrial, Roshar, Sel, and Yolan, are listed first, followed by secondary settings, being . Each section is spoilered both for length, and contains the following:

  • An overview of the setting 
  • An overview of the magic, and
  • An overview of the series

Please note that, in order to keep with the topic restrictions, theories and observations and questions for White Sand, Aether of Night, and Dragonsteel are in separate topics in their respective subforums, linked both to this main topic and from this main topic. At present the Dragonsteel section is down but may be back.

I include a brief explanation as to why I have the theories and observations, but I won't post links to quotes and such initially - if anyone would like to know further on the reasons for certain theories I will elaborate, but the size of this post means that to keep it readable I will be sparing on detail. If you are interested in further elaboration I would be able to post an expansion on any of these theories and observations and questions with links to explain the reasons behind them, and would then add a link to thsi post to allow those interested to find the new topic explaining further.

I pray God blesses and guides you!

 


 

Main Settings

The Cosmere

Spoiler

Full setting

Spoiler

The Cosmere's worlds are interconnected and in some way related. However, the Cosmere itself seems to be a term that only applies to a dwarf galaxy or cluster, or a region of a dwarf galaxy or cluster. The universe the Cosmere is inside of doesn't have a name, which raises questions about if there is life outside the group of worlds?

 

Theories

  1. The focus of the planets are based on the images on the chart, either due to the people who made the chart affecting the nature of those planets based on what they believed, or they believed those things about those constellations and planets because of feedback from what was present on the planets
  2. The distances and relative locations of the planets in the Cognitive realm is based on the beliefs of the people who made the map, as the stars are unlikely to be close together physically based on how they appear from a single location, but if the location was what the only people believes, and their belief affects the Cognitive realm, the distances and paths would be affected.

 

Observations

  1. Religions seem to be unique on each planet and based on real world beliefs on the supernatural. New planets introduced will be explorations of other ideas that haven't been covered by other planet's belief systems and traditions
  2. Except for Scadrial all planets with shards have a moon, so if there is a relation between shards and moons, it might be replaced by Ruin and Preservation being part of the planet
  3. Water appears solid in the Cognitive realm, while air doesn't seem affected. Regular matter combines together into a single object, while souls appear different to non-living objects, and bacteria don't seem to manifest, though they do have enough presence to maintain an area. Plants grow from the water, even if it is just a cup, and the planets seem to reflect the property of the planet 

 

Questions

  1. Is there life outside the Cosmere cluster, and if so, how does it relate to the Cosmere?
  2. If there is life outside the Cosmere, is it related to the red stars?

 

Magic systems interactions

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1. The more shards present at a location, the more powerful the resulting system or systems would be
  2. Shards are constrained in how their system manifests due to the properties of the planet, but deliberately making a planet lets them affect how it is structured. If they settle they will not be able to prevent a system
  3. Identity is a type of connection for what one considers a part of themselves, from the atoms of their bodies to the items they own that they consider intrinsic to themselves to their memories and emotions. Connection is any relation other than that. Fortune is connections across time relating to events. Investiture is the power that forms those links.

 

Observations

  1. All the systems are related and parts of a single larger system, so all systems can likely interact to a greater or lesser extent with the same properties, though the systems on the main worlds are most likely the best and most versatile at it.
  2. Investiture is the base of material in the setting, and matter is a form of investiture and investiture is a form of matter and a form of energy - does that mean shards can defeat entropy?
  3. Ruin was upset that it was loosing investiture due to Seers, but shards can also claim investiture from elsewhere

 

Questions

  1. Does anything prevent a spren or awakened object from holding a shard?
  2. Do other systems, such as Aethers or Tzai Blows, affect or use the bind points that Hemalurgy uses?
  3. How do atoms and molecules relate to the cognitive realm?

 

Full series progression

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1. The shattering has happened before in another star cluster
  2.  
  3. The series will end with life being seeded in another galaxy
  4. The shards don't work together because too much power in one place allows for those with access to it to become strong enough to harm the shards, such as on Scadrial, Roshar, Sel, and possibly Yolan

 

Observations

  1. With the possible exception of Yolan, all of the main worlds have at least two shards, while minor worlds either have remnants of a shard, or a single shard, assuming Autonomy's interference doesn't count

 

Questions

  1. N/A

 

 

 


Scadrial / Mistborn novels

Spoiler

Scadrial

Spoiler

Scadrial was specifically made by two shards, and its systems all use metal.

 

Theories

  1. Scadrial was specifically placed on an out of the way star not considered major on the chart so that it would not be affected by the perceptions of those who made the chart
  2. Aluminium will be used in future novels as the containers for metal flakes, protecting them from being affected by others when an allomancer wants to drink them
  3. [See the metallic arts theories below]

 

Observations

  1. Ruin considered the planet old, but had worked with Preservation to assemble it. Either Ruin considered all planets old, or Scadrial was made out of another planet

 

Questions

  1. If Ruin had won, what would have happened to allomancy, feruchemy, and hemalurgy - would the inquistors still have had abilities if the planet was destroyed?

 

Metallic / Metallurgic arts

Spoiler

The metallic arts are strongly interconnected, and affect all three of the realms in the cosmere. The fact that metal is also the solid form of investiture, and that the planet was specifically made, raises questions as to the purpose of the systems and how they relate to the others.

 

Theories

  1. The metallic arts were specifically made to affect the structure of the Cosmere, and as a two shard system, the three metallic arts were more flexible and powerful than other systems, with the exception of the systems of the other main planets.
  2.  
  3. Feruchemy and hemalurgy can affect the spiritual and cognitive realms, and allomancy can be used to provide excess power. It is likely that a spike could be used to link two people or machines together, and provide power from one to the other - it would be possible to be granted an ability remotely
  4. Between the 1980's and space opera, and possibly during the space opera, hemalurgy would be used to provide the equivalent of cybernetic implants, as inquisitors seem very cyberpunkish, and it would fit the aesthetic
  5. As Bleeder showed, spikes can be used to grant telepathy - combined with either the other arts, or investiture from other planets either in pure form (such as Awakening) or altered (a Lerasium and Edglium alloy for example) could be used to form wireless fabrial-type machines that can be remotely controlled (see above theory)
  6. Copper feruchemy combined with allomancy could be used to provide memory to electronic devices, and possibly copper wires could be used to transfer this from one location to another -  Feruchemy and allomancy can be used to make a computer
  7. The medallions most likely made using hemalurgy specifically as part of the process (I hope I'm wrong, but it could strain relations if allomancers and feruchemists have to die to make each one)
  8. Hemalurgy can change the powers slightly based on how they are connected to the individual using power - steel inquisitors can see the individual parts of the metals, so it probably changes their perception of materials. The power is only slightly changed.
  9. Nicrobursts can use their abilities to control or program allomancy based computers
  10. Connection combined with rioting or soothing increases the effect
  11. An alloy of steel or iron with another metal allows one to twist or spin a metal, iron one way and steel the other. Another likely lets the metal be moved perpendicularly to the allomancer
  12. Kandra spikes are made by melting two spikes together and then separating them.

 

Observations

  1. The three metallic arts allow for affecting the three realms, and have close interactions with one another.
  2. Mancy means divination - bronze allomancy was the first known example, so associating it with being given knowledge would be logical.
  3. Feruchemy contains an implication of chemistry, so it would make sense it involves changing metal
  4. Hemalurgy is similar to metallurgy, and hema is blood
  5. Surgery on Scadial - assuming they don't just use medallions - could be interesting with "accidentally" removing a part of someones powers, accidentally granting powers, or if a spike is used during surgery to increase strength and likelyhood of recovering, if a part broke of inside someone it could cause side effects

 

Questions

  1. Metals can be melted, dissolved, reconstituted, and welded together. What affect would this have on the metals properties in the three systems, such as what would happen if two spikes were welded together into a single spike?
  2. What would happen if a single spike were used to kill two people, both with the same ability?

 

Mistborn trilogies and series

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1.  

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

  1. How would the 1980's mistborn novels cover the ability for 
  2. What happened to the Bands, and could they be recharged?

 

 

 


Roshar, Braize, and Ashyn / Stormlight Archive

Spoiler

Rosharan system

Spoiler

 

 

Theories

  1. Ten is important to the whole system - strange that Braize is associated with another number

 

Observations

  1. Roshar has three moons and three shards - interesting that it has more moons than Sel

 

Questions

  1. How does one access the moons of Roshar from Shadsmar? Is it via nexus?
  2. How does one travel to Ashyn and Braize? They don't seem to map to expanses
  3. If one travelled to Roshar from one of the expanses, would one have the option to go to Ashyn, etc.?

 

'Binding and Fabrials, and Infection

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1. Windrunners can use the surge of Adhesion for telekinesis, namely pushing objects back. Also, reverse lashings are a combination of Adhesion and Gravitation.
  2. Skybreakers can't use reverse lashings - making one object pull another - but can use the surges of Gravitation and Division to split objects, making them fly apart
  3. Lightweaving can be used to fire energy beams
  4. Shardblades can be used as a focus for Lightweaving energy bolts
  5. [Removed, but says there is a link between three of the surges and a system on Yolan]
  6. Cultivation and Odium both have affected Ashyn's infection system
  7. Voidbinding does not affect the surges, but is related - the void is not absence but the "voiding" of a promise, etc.?

 

Observations

  1. Windrunners protect, and are associated with vapour which is clear. Preservation on Scadrial is associated with the mists, which can be seen through though not fully clearly
  2. Skybreakers are associated with smoke and are headed by Nale. Nalthis has BioChroma, which is described as an iridescent gas
  3. Ruin was associated with ash and destruction - the ash indirectly - while Dustbringers have Ash spren and can destroy
  4. Tension and Cohesion are stated as affecting the soft and strong Axial interconnection. Jasnah referred to the axi of the air when she soulcast it. Axi are thus probably the Cosmere or Rosharan term for atoms or molecules.
  5. Sapphires, rubies, emeralds, topaz, and heliodor are compounds of aluminium
  6. If Ash becomes a Dustbringer she would have an Ash spren

 

Questions

  1. N/A

 

Stormlight Archive

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1. The series will end with ten people - possibly the main characters - each holding a combination of Honour, Cultivation, and Odium - i.e. they will each express a different type of honour, and will either completely hold Honour and parts of either Cultivation or Odium or both, or will completely hold Honour and will also hold all of Cultivation or Odium or both. The spren will still be around, but the shards will be considered intact

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

 

 


Sel (Seol) / Elantris and sequels

Spoiler

The Selish system

Spoiler

 

 

Theories

  1. Dominion and Devotion deliberately intended to set up the civilisation on Sel with intentions that they gain power and be used by them

 

Observations

  1. Sel has a moon, which might indicate their is a shard

 

Questions

 

 

Language, symbols, geography

Spoiler

 

Theories

 

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

Stories on Sel

Spoiler

 

Theories

 

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

 

 


 

Yolan

[Link currently removed]

 


Secondary 

Silverlight / novella

Spoiler

City in the Cognitive realm

Spoiler

As Silverlight is present in the Cognitive realm, it seems unlikely that its location is random.

 

Theories

  1.  

 

Observations

  1. If the rest of Ambition is present it wouldn't be safe to use its perpendicularity normally, seeing as how it would be somewhere in space, but it would be helpful if one where using a ship that travels in the cognitive realm (see Cosmere theories)

 

Questions

  1. N/A

 

Multiple systems

Spoiler

 

Theories

 

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

Cosmere stories

Spoiler

 

Theories

 

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

 

 


Nalthis / Warbreaker and sequel

Spoiler

Nalthis

Spoiler

 

 

Theories

 

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

 

Awakening

Spoiler

Awakening is the most clearly capable of making machines and tools of the systems.

 

Theories

  1. Awakening can be used to make space ships
  2. Breath can be used as an emergency fuel for other systems

 

Observations

  1. Vashar observed that placing some of his own body on something he used Awakening on helped, so Breaths either imprint on the person using them so parts of their body acts as a focus, or another additional hair or skin from someone uninvolved would also make it easier

 

Questions

  1. Do Breaths stick with a cognitive shadow, so if Kelsier had more than a cognitive body, had some Breaths, lost that body, and then gained a new body again, would he still have Breaths?

 

Duology

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1.  

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

 

 


Threnody / Silence and novel

Spoiler

Threnody and its system

Spoiler

 

 

Theories

  1.  

 

Observations

  1. Threnody doesn't have a moon but one of its neighbours does, which might indicate that a shards remains are in the system

 

Questions

  1. Does any other planet in the system have parts of the dead shard?

 

The powers of Threnody

Spoiler

 

Theories

 

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

Threnody novel / novella

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1.  

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

 

 


First of the Sun / Sixth of the Dusk

Spoiler

Fisherman

Spoiler

The appearance of the constellation the star appears in is that of a fisherman

 

Theories

  1. As mentioned, the significance of the water on the planet is either due to the beliefs of the inhabitants of where the painting was made, or the painting reflects something which the people believes because the area has water

 

Observations

  1. N/A

 

Questions

  1. How long ago was the planet colonised?
  2. Was the hostile life near the pool originally present before Autonomy's interest and is actually related to autonomy investiture, or did Autonomy make the life hostile?

 

Interaction

Spoiler

 

Theories

 

 

Observations

 

 

Questions

 

Minor world

Spoiler

 

Theories

  1. N/A

 

Observations

  1. As Autonomy likes water and interfering on other planets, the other planets are likely also of interest but not as much due to a lack of investiture.

 

Questions

  1. N/A

 

 


Taldain / White Sand

See link: [All Series Spoilers] Interlinked theories - White Sand

 


Vax and Obrodai / N/A

See link: [All Series Spoilers] Interlinked theories - Aether of Night

 

For Obrodai

Spoiler

Little is known about this planet, but it is implied to be watery. I don't think the letter implies Hoid must visit it - I think the letter implies he must travel to First of the Sun and face the monsters there, surviving to prove his worth. I think the water is something Autonomy likes because water connects the planets, and so Autonomy can remain in the middle of the sea - the Cognitive realm - and remain at the centre of several worlds

 

 

Edits list

Spoiler

Edit 1 - updated some incomplete sections

Edit 2 - added links to section of previous theories and statements

Edit 3 - added more links

Edit 4 - removed OB from title and updated structure

Edit 5 - still updating structure, and added copy of original format

Edit 6 - still updating structure

Edit 7 - still updating structure

Edited by Ixthos
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Just reading through your theories and this one jumped out at me ^^

4 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Lightweaving can be used to fire energy beams

 

Brandon has confirmed that this is possible through WOB, though if I remember correctly, with the amount of Investiture used, it would be "wildly impractical", since the amount of Investiture needed to basically create a Death Star-esque blast would be near Shardic levels....

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43 minutes ago, Rawrbert said:

Brandon has confirmed that this is possible through WOB, though if I remember correctly, with the amount of Investiture used, it would be "wildly impractical", since the amount of Investiture needed to basically create a Death Star-esque blast would be near Shardic levels....

That's mostly hearsay.

The only source we have about such thing is this, and it is highly paraphrased:

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4 hours ago, Rawrbert said:

Just reading through your theories and this one jumped out at me ^^

 

Brandon has confirmed that this is possible through WOB, though if I remember correctly, with the amount of Investiture used, it would be "wildly impractical", since the amount of Investiture needed to basically create a Death Star-esque blast would be near Shardic levels....

Indeed! I imagine it would also be one of the major things to jump out at anyone looking at a Lightweaver ;-) Also, I didn't mean to that extent, just as a simple blast like a hand held laser

 

2 hours ago, John203 said:

While I appreciate the correction it comes across as slightly rude, and colder than you probably intended, and doesn't really add much other than pointing out I have difficulty spelling the place names :-P

Edited by Ixthos
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Browsing over your questions, a good chunk of them are answered or addressed in Arcanum, wob.coppermind.net.  Have you taken a look there?  For example:

 

7 hours ago, Ixthos said:

The focus of the planets are based on the images on the chart, either due to the people who made the chart affecting the nature of those planets based on what they believed, or they believed those things about those constellations and planets because of feedback from what was present on the planets

Quote

Argent

Do the constellations have actual names you can share with us?

Isaac Stewart

Clockwise from Threnody: the Mourner, the Dragon, the Fisherman, the Giver, the Lamp, the Knight, and the One Tree. The names are a bit generic, mostly because they are working names I used to refer to the different constellations during the process of painting the piece. It should be noted that the people from the spot in the Cosmere where the night sky does look like this would not see these pictures in the constellations nor give them these names. The pictures the patron saw in the stars here are based on their own observations and knowledge about the Cosmere as a whole. The locals would see entirely different pictures in their stars, for those who can even see the stars from their vantage.

One tidbit I should mention is that the lamp used to be a constellation called the Lover and was a man receiving breath from the Giver. I dropped it mostly because it's reference to Devotion wasn't working visually. Another thing to note: Not all the stars on this chart are physically within the Cosmere. Some are in the parts of Space beyond the Cosmere.

Footnote: This is from a private email exchange between Argent and Isaac Stewart.
source

 

7 hours ago, Ixthos said:

The distances and relative locations of the planets in the Cognitive realm is based on the beliefs of the people who made the map, as the stars are unlikely to be close together physically based on how they appear from a single location, but if the location was what the only people believes, and their belief affects the Cognitive realm, the distances and paths would be affected.

Quote

Argent

What perspective is this constellation map seen/drawn from? Somebody from an earlier signing in this tour said they spoke with you about this, and you mentioned Silverlight, but not exactly... I got the impression that your reply wasn't transcribed verbatim  Can you address the perspective issue here? We now know that Silverlight is in the Cognitive Realm (where the stars don't necessarily match their physical arrangement, if they are visible at all), so if you worried about accidentally revealing that earlier, it's no longer an issue.

Isaac Stewart

The map was created to reside in Silverlight and represents a partial view of the night sky from a point we have not yet revealed. So, no, this is not a view of the night sky from Silverlight. This is a mural painted for a patron whose travels have taken them far far afield.

Footnote: This is from a private email exchange between Argent and Isaac Stewart.
source
 

 

7 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Does anything prevent a spren or awakened object from holding a shard?

Quote

Questioner

What happens when a... spren picks up a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you mean picks up a Shard? Shardblade or Shard of Adonalsium?

Questioner

Picks up a Shard of Adonalsium.

Brandon Sanderson

A spren is a Shard of Adonalsium so it just--

Questioner

Picks up one of the big ones like could a spren do the same thing that Kelsier's spirit did after he--

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitantly* It's like you're asking if electricity can gain a charge of electricity and get electrified. Does that make sense? I mean-- It's a question that doesn't make a lot of sense.

If a shard were to somehow-- They would just combine into a bigger shard and get larger-- if that makes sense?

Questioner

The foundation of that question was I thought that maybe the Stormfather spren was basically doing what Kelsier's spirit did.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, um *sighs* Not really... It's really a not really There's some similarities but it's a not really. It's not quite a RAFO though. more of a--

Questioner

More of a "doesn't quite work that way".

Brandon Sanderson

--doesn't quite work that way but you're thinking along the right lines?

source

 

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@RShara I have read some of those, but not all.

  1. On the properties of the planets: This was addressed in part by Isaac, but doesn't cover the main point: Do the planets have the properties that they do BECAUSE the people who made the art thought of them and those stars as having those properties, or do the people who made the art think of the planets as having those properties BECAUSE those planets have those properties, and their beliefs were shaped by reality?
  2. On the relationships between them: That is also by Isaac, but doesn't address the point. The people who drew the art did so from an unknown location, possibly from a planet that humans settled after the shattering, possibly before, and possibly from Yolen. But if they drew the art, and believed those stars and planets were near to one another, would that mean that when those planets were settled they would be closer together in the cognitive realm? I.e., if people believed that there planet was round, and that you can get to the west coast by travelling far enough east, would the cognitive realm warp? If the population of two planets thought the other was closer to them than another, would the two planets be closer in the cognitive realm? Did the chart itself define the relative locations of planets in the cognitive realm because the people who drew it saw the stars near to one another and so believed they were?
  3. On spren holding a shard: That actually doesn't answer the question, as the question you posted points out that Kelsier, as a cognitive shadow and thus like a spren, making use of a device, was able to hold a shard, so Brandon stating the question wasn't fully on the right lines means the question is still not clear. What would prevent them from doing so? The lack of a physical body? The main reason I list this though, is because I am curious if Nightblood could take a shard.

 

@DracostarA The letter implies that two planets are under discussion though - the writers say that they are surprised Hoid knew where to send the letter, and that they thought it well hidden and considered unimportant. They mention Obrodai, saying that he mustn't go there. The letter then says to come to where the writers are, and face the challenges. I think that Hoid sent a letter to First of the Sun, that the reply was written there, and that Obrodai is a seperate location, one that Hoid is told to leave alone. So come to First of the Sun and see if Hoid can survive, but leave Obrodai alone.

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2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

@RShara I have read some of those, but not all.

  1. On the properties of the planets: This was addressed in part by Isaac, but doesn't cover the main point: Do the planets have the properties that they do BECAUSE the people who made the art thought of them and those stars as having those properties, or do the people who made the art think of the planets as having those properties BECAUSE those planets have those properties, and their beliefs were shaped by reality?
  2. On the relationships between them: That is also by Isaac, but doesn't address the point. The people who drew the art did so from an unknown location, possibly from a planet that humans settled after the shattering, possibly before, and possibly from Yolen. But if they drew the art, and believed those stars and planets were near to one another, would that mean that when those planets were settled they would be closer together in the cognitive realm? I.e., if people believed that there planet was round, and that you can get to the west coast by travelling far enough east, would the cognitive realm warp? If the population of two planets thought the other was closer to them than another, would the two planets be closer in the cognitive realm? Did the chart itself define the relative locations of planets in the cognitive realm because the people who drew it saw the stars near to one another and so believed they were?
  3. On spren holding a shard: That actually doesn't answer the question, as the question you posted points out that Kelsier, as a cognitive shadow and thus like a spren, making use of a device, was able to hold a shard, so Brandon stating the question wasn't fully on the right lines means the question is still not clear. What would prevent them from doing so? The lack of a physical body? The main reason I list this though, is because I am curious if Nightblood could take a shard.

 

@DracostarA The letter implies that two planets are under discussion though - the writers say that they are surprised Hoid knew where to send the letter, and that they thought it well hidden and considered unimportant. They mention Obrodai, saying that he mustn't go there. The letter then says to come to where the writers are, and face the challenges. I think that Hoid sent a letter to First of the Sun, that the reply was written there, and that Obrodai is a seperate location, one that Hoid is told to leave alone. So come to First of the Sun and see if Hoid can survive, but leave Obrodai alone.

Sorry, I felt it was clear.  The constellations were thought of by the person who commissioned the piece, and they are a picture of the night sky from a specific location in the Physical Realm.  There aren't stars in the Cognitive Realm.

One person's belief (or even a group) wouldn't be enough to change the shape of the CR, I think. All planets are technically closer together in the CR, because space that people aren't thinking about or living on is compressed. There's only a small amount of interstellar space between planets in the Cognitive Realm. 

People know their planets are round in the cosmere.  It's mentioned several times.  However, when you look around yourself, you don't think, "Look at how round the planet is today!" You think, "My those plains are flat."  This is what I think causes the CR to be flat.  While you know that the planet is round, you perceive it as flat on a constant basis.

 

For Nightblood

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Oudeis16

We've seen people Ascend. If it were in the position to do so, could Nightblood take up a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a RAFO, as I'm not specifically willing to comment on whether or not power that has become self-aware (Seons, Nightblood, Spren) can Ascend or not.

source

 

I just used those three as examples, since you had a lot of questions, theories and observations, and a number of them were answered by Brandon already. I'm not up to pasting every single relevant one into this thread, so my suggestion is to take each question and try a number of search terms for it, and there's a decent chance you'll find an answer.

 

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On the moon thing, you're definitely overthinking the connection. Case in point: Roshar and its moons existed before the Shattering and thus before the Shards existed.

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Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Was just the continent of Roshar created by Adonalsium or was the whole system created?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Whole system was created.

source

 

On 4/19/2018 at 5:00 AM, Ixthos said:

Does anything prevent a spren or awakened object from holding a shard?

To add to what's been said already, there is a distinction between Kelsier and a spren, or Nightblood. Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow and used to be human. Splinters are self-aware Investiture that was never human. Brandon has drawn a distinction between them.

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Ruin was upset that it was loosing investiture due to Seers, but shards can also claim investiture from elsewhere

Specifically, Ruin had a chunk of his power forcibly separated from him by Preservation and put in a continuous cycle where it would condense as atium. He needed to personally absorb the power when it was condensed in order to reclaim it. Shards can't just claim any Investiture however, but they do have Investiture associated with them in the Cosmere beyond whatever world(s) they're currently inhabiting. They can't necessarily access it however.

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How do atoms and molecules relate to the cognitive realm?

They don't, on an individual basis. The Cognitive is shaped by perception and people simply don't think of any given object as a collection of separate atoms. The illustration of how a just-baked cake appears Cognitively is illustrative.

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The shards don't work together because too much power in one place allows for those with access to it to become strong enough to harm the shards, such as on Scadrial, Roshar, Sel, and possibly Yolan

With the possible exception of Yolan, all of the main worlds have at least two shards, while minor worlds either have remnants of a shard, or a single shard, assuming Autonomy's interference doesn't count

Oathbringer spoilers:

Spoiler

The Vessels had an agreement to separate. We don't know why they did this or why some of them violated it (except that Honor and Cultivation were a couple) but it's probably not what you're thinking. We've never seen a human threaten a Shard directly. Vin defeated Ruin after Ascending, Dalinar was bonded to a large chunk of Honor (an amalgam which included Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow) and partially Ascended when he made Odium flee the battlefield. Even Nightblood doesn't have that much power.

Also, Taldain and Nalthis are both considered major shardworlds and they have one Shard apiece. The division between major and minor shardworld is whether there is a Shard present in the system's Physical/Cognitive space and how humans interact with the magic.

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I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor shard worlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a mistborn. source

 

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If Ruin had won, what would have happened to allomancy, feruchemy, and hemalurgy - would the inquistors still have had abilities if the planet was destroyed?

If Ruin had won, the question would be academic because there would no longer be a Scadrial. If you're imagining some worldhopper, their powers should remain because it's still hard-coded into their spiritweb but it would die out within a few generations at most as sDNA would get mixed with that of other worlds and the children and their children wouldn't have the Connection to Preservation necessary to become an allomancer or feruchemist. Hemalurgy would still work as long as Ruin is still around in some form.

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Hemalurgy can change the powers slightly based on how they are connected to the individual using power - steel inquisitors can see the individual parts of the metals, so it probably changes their perception of materials. The power is only slightly changed.

This isn't a hemalurgy thing, it's a Savant thing. Kelsier and Wax both demonstrate this ability and we see that anyone using the Bands of Mourning can as well. Inquisitors have it more or less by default because of how frequently they use A-Steel.

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Metals can be melted, dissolved, reconstituted, and welded together. What affect would this have on the metals properties in the three systems, such as what would happen if two spikes were welded together into a single spike?

What would happen if a single spike were used to kill two people, both with the same ability?

- There are WoBs about this. The more you mess with a metalmind or a hemalurgic spike, the harder it's going to be to use it again.

- In general, nothing. One spike, one charge.

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What happened to the Bands, and could they be recharged?

The Kandra have them and yes, they can theoretically be recharged via Compounding. Wax says as much and we have no reason to assume this isn't the case.

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How does one access the moons of Roshar from Shadsmar? Is it via nexus?

The moons will have a very small Cognitive presence. People on Roshar are thinking about them so they'll have some CR space but there isn't thought happening on them so it's not going to be to-scale with their relative Physical dimensions.

For your other CR questions, we can assume that Ashyn and Braize are just off the edges of the map, more or less. The Shadesmar map is really only showing Roshar's Cognitive zone, with indicators of what relative direction the nearest worlds are in. The Expanses are pretty much just signs saying 'Other Shardworld This Way'. Somewhere between Roshar and one of those, you'd run into the other planets in the system.

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Sapphires, rubies, emeralds, topaz, and heliodor are compounds of aluminium

Brandon has said there is no significance to this.

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Vashar observed that placing some of his own body on something he used Awakening on helped, so Breaths either imprint on the person using them so parts of their body acts as a focus, or another additional hair or skin from someone uninvolved would also make it easier

Breath keys itself to your Identity when you receive it, which is why it's the easiest system in the Cosmere to access. Brandon has said that Vasher's trick was designed to help the system resonate with readers and is an artifact from another story he wrote when Awakening wasn't fully developed. Getting something from an unrelated person wouldn't help because it's not you and your magic won't recognize it as such.

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Do Breaths stick with a cognitive shadow, so if Kelsier had more than a cognitive body, had some Breaths, lost that body, and then gained a new body again, would he still have Breaths?

This WoB suggests that if you have Breath and become a Cognitive Shadow, you would retain your Breath because it goes with your soul rather than your body.

Edited by Weltall
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I'm having difficulty getting images to insert into the text. Please see the attachments.

@RShara I don't think I have been as clear as I could be, I'm afraid. I apologise if I've been confusing the issue. I have attached a few images to help better illustrate what I mean and why I think it is the case. The following four figures demonstrate:

Cognitive_Realm_and_Shadesmar.png

Figure 1: Cognitive Realm and Shadesmar

As others have shown, Shadesmar maps onto the star map. In Shadesmar, moving to the north west moves you to Sel. But the planet is rotating, the stars are moving. How can Sel or Scadrial or any other planet in the Cognitive realm maintain a fixed relationship if the planets themselves turn and face different directions, when for example the star that Taldain orbits is in the west-south-west at night, but by morning is facing east-north-east? And what of Braize and Ashyn, the three moons, the star? We have been told that the gas giants have a minor presence, but they are present. What does it mean, though, that they have a minor presence? Are they an area someone can stand, or are they a bead, or is there even a meaningful distinction between land and bead? Water and presumably air become one material, a material that connects the planets. Perception shapes Shadesmar, and the Cognitive realm is a sea that underlies the planets and in part composes them. If people started thinking of the gas giants as a locations, would they grow if they are beads, or become larger if solid? What of the moons? Are they areas one can walk to, possibly to one by one Nexus, another by another? Distance is contracted, but not removed. But what of direction? Is the Cognitive realm really flat? Maybe it is a large sphere with its centre on Yolen.

But most importantly, the relationship to the other planets has to be shaped by perception, because the stars are almost certainly not next to it.

Grid_of_Stars.png

Figure 2: Grid of Stars

I know I should be using spherical coordinates, but as we don't know the angle this image covers of the sky, and for a sufficiently small angle, or sufficiently far away, I think Cartesian coordinates should still be effective. The image outlines the grid-locations of the stars, relative to Scadrial, when looked at from the area where the night sky would be seen by the people or artist who did the drawing. I have labelled the x and y axes, and as I have said I have made Scadrial the origin. Right and up on the axes are increasing the count, left and down decreasing. I have also, as you will see, assumed certain z values for the named star systems. I have made Taldain's star and Roshar's and First of the Sun's sun are very close to the observer (positive z values) because they are very bright but don't overshadow the other stars, and can be assumed to be fairly far away from the system where the chart was drawn from - their sizes based on how they are drawn in the system diagrams. Threnody's star is small and red, so to be seen it must be closer (negative z values) and so forth. The values are arbitrary, but I hope you will agree they are reasonable. And they have been chosen to illustrate a point. Removing the art and leaving the grid shows the next Figure.

XY.png

Figure 3: XY

Without the artwork, and seen from the drawings perspective, the stars take up a small corner, and Roshar seems to be the hub of several, while First of the Sun is alone and to its side. If they are all approximately the same distance to the observer, laying on a large sphere, this will accurately describe their locations relative to one another. But what if the z values are accurate?

ZY.png

Figure 4: ZY

Sel and Nalthis has swapped places, as have Scadrial and Taldain, relative to Roshar. First of the Sun is now closer to Roshar, etc. These differences, and similar ones, persist for the ZX axes. So unless the observers had a privileged position, that they can see perpendicular to the plane that those five lie on, the path between planets must be determined by belief, otherwise in three dimensions the mappings would be arbitrary.

 

@Weltall I think it is possible the moons where moved there, or their unstable nature is due to the shards. Their orbits are unstable, and it wouldn't make sense for them to be placed in that configuration and then have remained in it unless the planet is relatively recent. How long ago relative to the events on Yolen, basically, determines if they are natural or placed there after. They are significant, as Brandon worked out how long it would take a Windrunner to reach them, along with the other planets in the Rosharan system. The system might have been made, but if the shards came on moons, for example, the system would still have been made before, but the moons would be new.

With spren, I'm note entirely convinced though, as some of the spren on Braize are cognitive shadows as well, so what makes the distinction other than cognitive shadows having a prior history and having a formerly physical existence?

I agree, but my main thrust is that the planet was doomed, Ruin and Preservation could be matched but the planet would be destroyed without Preservation being able to gain an upper hand. I am assuming that once the humans on the planet were gone it would take about the same amount of time for their investiture to return to Preservation as it would Ruins investiture, assuming Ruin had stopped the process that caused the pits to maintain their hold on its intestiture - not just Kelsier stopping them. So when the planet was gone, Ruin just has to wait, or go find more elsewhere, and Ruin did state time was of little concern - the investiture would return, though I do wonder how Ruin would have absorbed Atium back.

I suspect you are right, but I still would be curious how long it would take before hemalurgy stopped. And the inquisitors needed hemalurgy, so why make Marsh immortal with allomantic and feruchemical power to regain age if hemalurgy would be destroyed when the planet was destroyed, or century later, as hemalurgy requires Scadrial.

I don't want to go too into detail on this at the moment, as I want to do a more detailed version, but I don't think that the powers remain unchanged when applied. I agree that it is a thing with the amount of power, but is being twice as good at pushing really enough to make you see the lines? Zane had a spike and he couldn't, and Marsh had two spikes, together giving him the same amount as Zane, but he could see with Iron.

I don't think that applies, as Brandon said, one spike one power. I mean what if you had one spike with the same power but it held a greater charge from killing someone, not using Atium to gain two powers in one spike. Thats more for the welding of two spikes. I do know Brandon has spoken on this, particularly with regards to a World War 2 event when a Nobel medal was dissolved and restored. I was thinking along what else could be done.

There might be more going on though. The Nexuses look like the expanses, and they go straight up. I think they are connections, especially given the name Transition.

That I didn't know. Thanks :-) I did think it was interesting though :-P

I think it would though, as the thing about Breath is making something alive, and the closer it matches something alive the less Breath it takes. I mainly think that life is the focus of Awakening, but that is assuming focuses are the same idea on other planets.

Thanks :-) though I was interested as someone said that Breath can't be taken with hemalurgy, so I was wondering if it was attached to the body.

I think I missed a few of yours. I'll recheck in a bit and post an update.

 

I haven't finished with the theories and observations and questions yet, but I stopped because I was getting confused with trying to fit them all in. I have hardly touched Sel and Nalthis, I haven't given details on what I think the remaining Mistborn stories will involve in part, etc. This isn't just about asking questions. I want to suggest the community certain things I don't think have been covered yet, like the possibility of how Stormlight could differ from Mistborn in ten people taking up a shard together, and Aethers can be used for space travel, etc. I am glad you want to answer the questions, and deeply gratified that you want to inform me of things that I have missed. I think that it is important to note that questions that I have asked, and that another has asked and Brandon has declined answering, still count as questions, and all the more significant because he is avoiding them, either because he hasn't given it much thought, he wants to finalise something before committing, or he wants to avoid spoilers like what is going to happen in later stories. I thank you for answering my questions. Can we also discuss the idea that Axi are atoms? :-) 

[Edit: Rearranged images, corrected grammatical errors which had previously changed the meaning of two sentences to the exact opposite of what they where meant to mean, and corrected the direction when referencing Sel. If I do a post about the cognitive realm structure I aim to also correct the error in the images with the double axes indications, but that is irrelevant to the current edit ... and saying that is also irrelevant to the current edit.]

Edited by Ixthos
Several - see the bottom
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55 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

As others have shown, Shadesmar maps onto the star map. In Shadesmar, moving to the north east moves you to Sel. But the planet is rotating, the stars are moving. How can Sel or Scadrial or any other planet in the Cognitive realm maintain a fixed relationship if the planets themselves turn and face different directions, when for example the star that Taldain orbits is in the west-south-west at night, but by morning is facing east-north-east?

Because as you recognize, Cognitive space is shaped by perception. People may intellectually know that everything in the universe is in motion but they don't think in those terms. From their perpsective, the planet is fixed and everything moves around it. With everyone on every planet thinking of their world in fixed terms, you get fixed 'islands' representing the planets in a spaciallly compressed sea of empty Cognitive space.

Regarding moons and such, Brandon has said that stellar objects that people are thinking about will have a presence but it will be very small and very weird. Like, maybe a tiny patch of 'ground'. Khriss comments in the essay on Roshar that nothing useful can be learned about the gas giants in the system from the Cognitive Realm, so whatever presence they have is really minimal.. We also know that Cognitive space can contract or expand, like the hypothetical examples of a world being completely sterilized of life slowly vanishing from Cognitive space, or moon being explored and colonized and thus 'growing' in the Cognitive.

Anyhow, the Cognitive Realm can be kind of brain-breaking when we try to map it to Physical space but the island analogy seems to work pretty well and accounts for the fixed position of the planets and other inhabited bodies.

Quote

 I think it is possible the moons where moved there, or their unstable nature is due to the shards. Their orbits are unstable, and it wouldn't make sense for them to be placed in that configuration and then have remained in it unless the planet is relatively recent. How long ago relative to the events on Yolen, basically, determines if they are natural or placed there after. They are significant, as Brandon worked out how long it would take a Windrunner to reach them, along with the other planets in the Rosharan system. The system might have been made, but if the shards came on moons, for example, the system would still have been made before, but the moons would be new.

There is literally no reason to assume that Shards need to travel through Physical space to reach a given world or take up residence on it when they're capable of accessing and travelling through the Spiritual Realm. We even know that Brandon has considered ways by which humans can travel Spiritually, though he hasn't canonized it yet. And the numbers don't match up, with Sel having two Shards but one moon, Scadrial having no moons and two Shards, First of the Sun having no Shards and a moon and Roshar having two Shards and three moons; Odium influences the world but his Physical/Cognitive 'presence' is on Braize, which has no moons. There's no clear pattern. I agree that there's something up with Roshar's moons but we can't assume it relates to the Shards. Adonalsium could have been having some fun, just like Taldain pretty much has to have been made either by him or by Autonomy. That the systems are unstable in astronomical timeframes doesn't matter too much in the ten thousand or so years that the Cosmere covers so far.

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With spren, I'm note entirely convinced though, as some of the spren on Braize are cognitive shadows as well, so what makes the distinction other than cognitive shadows having a prior history and having a formerly physical existence?

Don't get too hung up on what the Rosharan characters call them; Brandon has said that a Rosharan would call the Shards or Adonalsium spren because that's how they think of such things, but there are clear Realmatic distinctions. Khriss mentions this in her essay, suggesting that some of the Splinters on Braize may actually be Cognitive Shadows (ie, the most Cosmere-aware person we know of thinks of them as distinct entities) and the only reason she's not more definite is that she's smart enough to want to stay away from Odium's home turf.

But yes, the difference is as follows: A Cognitive Shadow is a being that was once alive and had its soul permeated by Investiture, allowing it to remain in the Cognitive Realm after Physical death without passing Beyond, a Splinter is self-aware Investiture that was never human.

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I don't want to go too into detail on this at the moment, as I want to do a more detailed version, but I don't think that the powers remain unchanged when applied. I agree that it is a thing with the amount of power, but is being twice as good at pushing really enough to make you see the lines? Zane had a spike and he couldn't, and Marsh had two spikes, together giving him the same amount as Zane, but he could see with Iron.
 

It's not the amount of power, it's how much you use it. An Inquisitor has to use A-Steel/Iron to see, they're going to become Savants whether they want to or not. Kelsier specialized in using those metals so he could do more with them than Vin, who had less time with her powers. Wax can only burn steel and he does it all the time, so he's becoming a Savant and can do things that people don't normally think of as being possible. Zane may have a spike to enhance his A-Steel but he's not necessarily burning it often enough to have reached that level of integration between the power and his soul.

Also, FYI spike power is not equal. The amount of charge a given piece of metal is able to capture may differ (for example, we know that atium will always steal more efficiently than an ordinary metal) and can degrade over time. There's also inherent strength to consider, see Vin versus Elend. Both mistborn but the latter is stronger than the former. So Zane's raw power with A-Steel versus Marsh's power isn't as simple as adding up the spikes, even before considering that it's not the really important factor in play.

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I don't think that applies, as Brandon said, one spike one power. I mean what if you had one spike with the same power but it held a greater charge from killing someone, not using Atium to gain two powers in one spike. Thats more for the welding of two spikes. I do know Brandon has spoken on this, particularly with regards to a World War 2 event when a Nobel medal was dissolved and restored. I was thinking along what else could be done.

Bear in mind that a hemalurgic charge isn't just 'the power to use Attribute X', it's 'Victim Y's ability to use Attribute X'. The fact that Identity ls linked to hemalurgically stolen powers is the reason that you can use someone else's metalminds if you've spiked out a feruchemical power. So trying to use a spike that already has a charge for any power, even the same one, is going to be 'full'. You wouldn't have an additive effect but two separate spiritwebs trying to staple themselves to the same bind point on your soul.

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I want to ask the community certain things I don't think have been covered yet, like the possibility of how Stormlight could differ from Mistborn in ten people taking up a shard together, and Aethers can be used for space travel, etc. I am glad you want to answer the questions, and deeply gratified that you want to inform me of things that I have missed. I think that it is important to note that questions that I have asked, and that another has asked and Brandon has declined answering, still count as questions, and all the more significant because he is avoiding them, either because he hasn't given it much thought, he wants to finalise something before committing, or he wants to avoid spoilers like what is going to happen in later stories.

Ask away whenever you've got the time, this is fun.

Oh, and on Brandon not answering certain questions, have you ever seen what his RAFO card looks like? It may be that he hasn't decided on something or it would spoil too much, even if it's not related to the immediate question. Or it could be that he's just being Brandon and wants to mess with our heads. :D

 

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1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

Cognitive_Realm_and_Shadesmar.png

 

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

As others have shown, Shadesmar maps onto the star map. In Shadesmar, moving to the north east moves you to Sel. But the planet is rotating, the stars are moving. How can Sel or Scadrial or any other planet in the Cognitive realm maintain a fixed relationship if the planets themselves turn and face different directions, when for example the star that Taldain orbits is in the west-south-west at night, but by morning is facing east-north-east? And what of Braize and Ashyn, the three moons, the star? We have been told that the gas giants have a minor presence, but they are present. What does it mean, though, that they have a minor presence? Are they an area someone can stand, or are they a bead, or is there even a meaningful distinction between land and bead? Water and presumably air become one material, a material that connects the planets. Perception shapes Shadesmar, and the Cognitive realm is a sea that underlies the planets and in part composes them. If people started thinking of the gas giants as a locations, would they grow if they are beads, or become larger if solid? What of the moons? Are they areas one can walk to, possibly to one by one Nexus, another by another? Distance is contracted, but not removed. But what of direction? Is the Cognitive realm really flat? Maybe it is a large sphere with its centre on Yolen.

But most importantly, the relationship to the other planets has to be shaped by perception, because the stars are almost certainly not next to it.

One thing to remember is that while it looks like a picture, some of the stars would be much closer or much farther away, not perfectly aligned on a flat surface.

I think it would be more the systems and the suns rather than the specific planets and their rotation.  During the day, Roshar might be turned the wrong way for Sel to be "northwest" of it, but the spatial relation between the Roshar system and the Sel system wouldn't change.

I don't think most of the peoples that live on the cosmere planets are aware that other civilizations I don't think most of the peoples that live on the cosmere planets are aware that other civilizations exist on other planets, so I don't think their perception is going to make a big difference in how Shadesmar looks.  It would mostly be the spren, the Shards, and the worldhoppers.  Of those, I suspect the Shards have the most influence on the spatial relationship between the planets and systems.

By present, I think Brandon means, like, a patch of ground. 

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Questioner

So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it's *inaudible* would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause...

Questioner

Right.

Brandon Sanderson

But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hoakie, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

source

And Weltall has added much more while I distracted from typing this, so... What he(she) said!

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4 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Is the Cognitive realm really flat? Maybe it is a large sphere with its centre on Yolen.

Brandon has been fairly clear on this.

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Brandon Sanderson
So one of the things you'll have to be asking questions and theorizing on is what happens if you try to carry a spren around the planet. What happens to their Cognitive sense, right? So you're on Roshar, right? So on the Physical Realm what would happen-- Because on Shadesmar, you have a flattened version. So there are questions for you to be theorizing implicit in that.  And one of them is, what happens, you cross a threshold circling the globe, your spren, what happens to them? Because-- Okay? This relates to the question you’re asking.


Dirigible's sister
Is the Cognitive Realm flat or spherical? Because I was going to say, if you make a globe flat...

Brandon Sanderson
The Cognitive Realm is this weird thing, where it's flat, but it's distorted. You can walk from one planet to the next. So it's got really weird...the spatial reasoning doesn't work the same way.


5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

In Shadesmar, moving to the northeast moves you to Sel. But the planet is rotating, the stars are moving. How can Sel or Scadrial or any other planet in the Cognitive realm maintain a fixed relationship if the planets themselves turn and face different directions, when for example the star that Taldain orbits is in the west-south-west at night, but by morning is facing east-north-east?

It is as you say: "the relationship to the other planets has to be shaped by perception." Here's some perception for you:

Mars orbits further out than Earth does, and that's how we perceive it. At any given time, Mars and Earth could be on opposite sides of the Sun in the Physical Realm, which would logically mean that to get to the other, you have to go through the Sun, but that's PR logic. In the Cognitive Realm, Mars will always be in the direction "away" from the Sun, because we perceive Mars as being further away from the Sun than the Earth. If Earth and Venus were on opposite sides of the Sun in the PR, you would still reach Venus before reaching the Sun in the CR, because Venus is perceived as being closer to Earth than the Sun is.

The Expanse of the Densities is to the "Northwest" of Roshar on the Shadesmar image. And if you look at the Star Map, regardless of the orientation of either planet, or their relative position on their solar orbits, the Selish System will always be Northwest(relatively) from the Rosharan System in the Physical Realm, and Sel is perceived as being "to the NW of Roshar" when looking at the two from an outside perspective(like a Worldhopper or a Shard), and that means that it will always be to the Northwest in the CR.

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

I think it would though, as the thing about Breath is making something alive, and the closer it matches something alive the less Breath it takes. I mainly think that life is the focus of Awakening, but that is assuming focuses are the same idea on other planets.

The Focus for Awakening is Commands, which is something Chaos has known since before the Forums existed.

Quote

Some backstory: In my own discussion with Brandon (from 2009, I believe), he said that Aons are the focuses for AonDor, metal is the focus for the Metallic Arts. Those are sort of no-brainers. But then he surprised me, and said that the Commands are the focus in Warbreaker. At the time, I had guessed color, so that revelation blindsided me.


I was told that Commands were the focus for Awakening many years ago, possibly before 17th Shard existed. It was the first time I met Mi'ch, actually. Definitely before the AMoL split was announced, so it would be pre-17S.

So, you don't really get much better citation than me saying he told me this. It was a long time ago, and we are better at citing things now.


5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Thanks :-) though I was interested as someone said that Breath can't be taken with hemalurgy, so I was wondering if it was attached to the body.

We have had contradictory WoBs on whether or not you can steal Breath. If memory serves, I don't think we've gotten it properly clarified, but the "can't" WoB was more recent(granted, only by 2 months), so that's what we're going with in the interim.

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

With spren, I'm note entirely convinced though, as some of the spren on Braize are cognitive shadows as well, so what makes the distinction other than cognitive shadows having a prior history and having a formerly physical existence?

Splinters(like Spren) haven't been "alive," per se, while Cognitive Shadows are of things formerly alive. The difference is in their origins.
Splinter: Investiture given Sentience.  &   Cognitive Shadow: Sentience given Investiture(although that's a very bad way of putting it).

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Before I address the responses I feel I should clear a few things up. When I talk in person, unless I am specifically stating certain facts directly, I will often phrase things in terms of questions, even when they are not actually questions I myself have. When I addressed RShara, the first paragraph was not a list of questions I was asking because I didn't know the answer, they were questions to challenge what seemed to be assumptions her response to my previous post had had. The idea of the Cognitive realm's structure is not affected by belief, just expanded by the presence of thought at or potentially about an area was one I disagreed with, and it seemed to be RShara's view. Please do not misunderstand me though! If there are counters to the questions, I would like to hear them, but please realise that when I asked how a fixed relationship can be maintained while they are moving, I wasn't asking in confusion, I was asking to make a point that they are moving, and have a fixed relationship, and that meant it couldn't be based just on how close they were physically. In short, my argument was:

  1. The direction one has to move to get from one planet to another is a fixed direction once in Shadesmar on Roshar
  2. That direction does not always correspond to the direction one would face in the physical realm to see the star that the planet one wishes to travel to orbits (i.e. you face one direction to see a planet, but enter Shadesmar, turn around, and then walk in the opposite direction, and then you are on the planet)
  3. The chart also doesn't show how one would have to move to reach the moons or gas giants or other planets in the system, which don't correspond to the expanses, and there is little indication that those expanses will make you walk past those planets or systems, other than the possibility that the art for each system shows the way the planets or moons are arranged in the Cognitive realm, though that wouldn't make much sense for Roshar as the expanses are diagonal. However, if there are arranged as such, then in theory one could approach the planet from the sides, and moving to the top or the bottom would bring one closer to Braize or Ashyn respectively
  4. From the perspective of the art Roshar is the centre of four other systems
  5. The stars and the planets are not on a flat surface but arranged in space, and are most likely arranged such that if looked at from another perspective Roshar could be the furthest planet from the others, while previously isolated planets would be closer together, so the exact path is not entirely drawn from the physical realm.
  6. Therefore, the fact that Roshar is the hub of four other star systems is due to the fact that, from the perspective of the location the art was drawn Roshar is the centre of those four other systems, and the Cognitive realm was shaped accordingly. Also, the Nexuses, which resemble the expanses, are probably how one accesses the moons.

@Weltall I agree, though my main argument, as I mentioned, is that the reason it is this particular relationship.

Fair point about the moons. I think there is a significance about all the moons, like maybe the shards need something to inhabit while travelling, but I agree it would be strange. The main reason I am curious though is because of soulstone and its origins as have been claimed.

I think Khriss is making the distinction on origins because it helps explain different behaviours - like a fish and a crab are both sea creatures, but one walks and the other swims, but they both would count as sea food. With spren, what test could you do to determine they are different to a cognitive shadow?

What I mean is that the spikes, by being added in different places, will manifest differently. The proteins that make up the machinery of your cells are built from amino acids, and their configuration results in the shape of the protein, which only has its shape because the acids link together and fold it in the right shape. Thus you can have two proteins composed of a similar number of amino acids, and most of the same amino acids, but the acids where placed together differently and thus folding differently, and that difference makes them perform different functions. I think the spikes work in the same manner. After all, four spikes of human strength make a Koloss when placed in the right place, which is more than just a human with five times the strength of an ordinary human - the strength has to have changed somehow when added to them - and one spike with an unknown attribute makes the monsters Bleeder sent. The recipients body is warped by the added components, so I suspect the abilities, when placed in certain areas, manifest differently. An inquisitor has to be able to see very quickly, far to quickly to have become a savant by having extra power, and inquisitors bodies are warped by the presence of the spikes - it makes sense that how the power is attached is changed as well. Marsh had two spikes for steel and no natural ability for steel, Zane had natural steel and a steel spike, and Eldend was probably stronger than both - I think Zane would probably be stronger with steel than Marsh, but I agree on the amount of charge being important.

Fair enough :-) Though I still think welding spikes together could have an interesting effect, though obviously not a healthy one.

Also, to continue answering points you made in the previous post, when I said main stories I mean based on the original outline for the series - Elantris and its sequels, Mistborn series, Stormlight, and Dragonsteel were stated to be the main series, and the rest are secondary, basically support for it, like White Sand, the Warbreaker ("unnamed Vasher prequel"), etc. So of those four main series, three are the only know planets or systems with more than one shard actively present.

I hadn't seen one. Thanks for showing it! I think sometimes an avoided question can be more informative than an answered on, though not always obviously ;-)

 

@RShara That is the point I was making - ZY shows another perspective where their relations are different. The thing is that both the planets rotations and the stars movements would affect their physical location - in summer you would see a star you wouldn't see in winter, but in the morning you would see the last star of the day on the opposite side you would see it when it first appears. And which way would you walk to reach the sun, for example? I think the view that the art represents is the view that humans first saw in the Cosmere, and so when they colonised that view determined the relations, because their myths and legends, reflected in what they named the stars and the stories they told shaped them, and once they were shaped, and once others began to travel those paths further travel cemented those relationships. This also might mean that when people start to think of the space as vast, and the planets as floating in three dimensions rather than being as close as they appear, travel would become much more difficult.

I do find it interesting that life has a different structure in the Cognitive realm than ordinary matter. Brandon is exploring concepts in philosophy like the ship of Theseus, and when do a few grains of sand piled together become a heap. Life seems to be distinct from ordinary material, and spren feed on or can sense emotion, so things not connected directly to solid material are probably like smells or flavours. But what is really interesting is the question of whether there is a distinction between an area and an object. The planet they walk on could well be a large bead that the ocean of little bead and the black ground that is water rest on, or maybe it is a separate thing, and there is a bead in the sea corresponding to the whole area. So far, the two Cognitive realm areas we have seen are similar but very different, with the mists being shaped like the objects they are reflections of, and the beads able to link together to reflect the bead chosen as the base. The Cognitive realm has reflections of objects, reflections of places, reflections of water - which in large concentrations all combine together to link the planets - the plants that grow and reflect the area they are from, be it mist sprouting or crystal, and whatever air there is. But the idea of a place still hadn't been explored other than buildings. Thank you for the quote on the moons, by the way! The idea that bacteria are enough to sustain an area is interesting :-)

 

@The One Who Connects I disagree that Brandon has been clear, as, after all, the surface of the Earth is flat, but distorted as well, and a circle with a large enough radius resembles a line. Indeed, a sphere with a radius the size of Pluto's average orbital distance would drop off incredibly slowly. Brandon says it is a flattened version, but that doesn't mean flat. Not that I am suggesting it is a sphere, though it might be. It probably is like rubber, some areas closer together if you approach them one way than if you did another, and some areas having a hyperbolic geometry, with a smaller perimeter than their area would indicate.

With regards to the planets orbiting, I was actually thinking about that with regards to planets sometimes being on the other side of the sun from one another, though I was mainly thinking of our largest gas giant ;-) You basically restated, but more eloquently, my own argument :-) My basic point of that was that the reason it is this configuration, and not another, is because the people who saw the night sky thought of those stars and their planets as being near to one another, and that is why it is that configuration and not another.

With respect, the statement about Commands being the focus is somewhat paraphrased, so I am not entirely convinced, but I do agree it would make sense. The reason I said that about life, though, was because Vasher specifically said that the hair was the focus. The fact he placed something organic on the figure and gave it a command, and said it would work better because the hair was the focus made me think that it was life that is the focus. However, it might be that he meant it differently than Brandon meant it, so it is a focus in a different way. But thank you for the information :-)

I still don't see how a Cognitive shadow is any different from a spren, as they are both made of the same material in the same state. Unless the prior links to the physical world are important, I think a mind and connection to the shard is all that matters. After all, Kelsier could - confirmed in a previous quote, however Brandon has since either changed his mind or regrets answering as he now has declined answering - be bonded like a spren, and Nightblood has a physical form.

 

Also, @Weltall, @RShara, and @The One Who Connects, I would like to add that, prior to posting this topic I have previously read your responses and own posts on various theories, and I would like to let you all know how much I respect your opinions, an appreciate your feedback, even though we disagree. Your insights are helpful, and I do hope your day has been going well.

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12 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@RShara That is the point I was making - ZY shows another perspective where their relations are different. The thing is that both the planets rotations and the stars movements would affect their physical location - in summer you would see a star you wouldn't see in winter, but in the morning you would see the last star of the day on the opposite side you would see it when it first appears. And which way would you walk to reach the sun, for example? I think the view that the art represents is the view that humans first saw in the Cosmere, and so when they colonised that view determined the relations, because their myths and legends, reflected in what they named the stars and the stories they told shaped them, and once they were shaped, and once others began to travel those paths further travel cemented those relationships. This also might mean that when people start to think of the space as vast, and the planets as floating in three dimensions rather than being as close as they appear, travel would become much more difficult.

Sorry, but I pasted the WoB that tells us where this is from.  I thought it pretty definitely answered that question?

Quote

Argent

What perspective is this constellation map seen/drawn from? Somebody from an earlier signing in this tour said they spoke with you about this, and you mentioned Silverlight, but not exactly... I got the impression that your reply wasn't transcribed verbatim  Can you address the perspective issue here? We now know that Silverlight is in the Cognitive Realm (where the stars don't necessarily match their physical arrangement, if they are visible at all), so if you worried about accidentally revealing that earlier, it's no longer an issue.

Isaac Stewart

The map was created to reside in Silverlight and represents a partial view of the night sky from a point we have not yet revealed. So, no, this is not a view of the night sky from Silverlight. This is a mural painted for a patron whose travels have taken them far far afield.

Footnote: This is from a private email exchange between Argent and Isaac Stewart.
source

And it would have to be painted after the Shattering, since Scadrial the planet wouldn't have existed before the Shattering, and so that solar system wouldn't have had any significance (or be shaped like Vin).

In addition, the people who live on the planet that would see these stars as they are wouldn't call them what the Patron does.

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Argent

Do the constellations have actual names you can share with us?

Isaac Stewart

Clockwise from Threnody: the Mourner, the Dragon, the Fisherman, the Giver, the Lamp, the Knight, and the One Tree. The names are a bit generic, mostly because they are working names I used to refer to the different constellations during the process of painting the piece. It should be noted that the people from the spot in the Cosmere where the night sky does look like this would not see these pictures in the constellations nor give them these names. The pictures the patron saw in the stars here are based on their own observations and knowledge about the Cosmere as a whole. The locals would see entirely different pictures in their stars, for those who can even see the stars from their vantage.

One tidbit I should mention is that the lamp used to be a constellation called the Lover and was a man receiving breath from the Giver. I dropped it mostly because it's reference to Devotion wasn't working visually. Another thing to note: Not all the stars on this chart are physically within the Cosmere. Some are in the parts of Space beyond the Cosmere.

Footnote: This is from a private email exchange between Argent and Isaac Stewart.
source

 

12 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

The planet they walk on could well be a large bead

The Cognitive Realm is flat.  If it were a large bead, there would be curvature, and there's not.

Quote

Dirigible's sister

Is the Cognitive Realm flat or spherical?

Brandon Sanderson

The Cognitive Realm is this weird thing, where it's flat, but it's distorted.

Dirigible's sister

Yeah, 'cause I was going to say, if you make a globe flat...

Brandon Sanderson

You can walk from one planet to the next. So it's got really weird...the spatial reasoning doesn't work the same way.

source

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

One that's probably for Peter. Shadesmar appears to be flat. And you talk about people walking between worlds. But worlds are spherical. What's up with that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This has given him a bit of a headache. It works in my brain, and I'm pretty sure we can make it on the world. Remember, things people think about manifest in Shadesmar, so I've been able to work out a map where places that just aren't inhabited are shrunk in Shadesmar.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And they turn into points, so you can just walk off them?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah.

source

 

Anyway, my original point was that there were a number of WoBs that addressed the questions and theories.  I just picked these because they were the first ones on the list.  I just wanted to suggest that going to Arcanum and using keywords related to your theories would be rewarding because a number of them have been addressed and I wasn't up to answering/debating every single one :)

Edited by RShara
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@RShara I actually addressed the second half of your response when I responded to The One Who Connects, so I won't repeat the full details here, but basically Brandon didn't actually say it is flat, as he points out it is distorted. As to the first, I think we will have to disagree - after all, the painting still could be from Yolen - that isn't ruled out, just that those constellations aren't Yolish, and that quote is from Isaac, not Brandon ;-) We know it isn't Silverlight, we don't know it isn't from Yolen.

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14 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@RShara I actually addressed the second half of your response when I responded to The One Who Connects, so I won't repeat the full details here, but basically Brandon didn't actually say it is flat, as he points out it is distorted. As to the first, I think we will have to disagree - after all, the painting still could be from Yolen - that isn't ruled out, just that those constellations aren't Yolish, and that quote is from Isaac, not Brandon ;-) We know it isn't Silverlight, we don't know it isn't from Yolen.

But Isaac is Brandon's art director, he's the one that came up with the chart and painted it...

He means flat, but distorted as in space there doesn't mean the same thing as space here, which he explains at other times about how places that people are only sometimes thinking about are points.

 

Quote

Question

What was your design process for designing all of the star systems for each of the worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

I am lucky enough to have on staff one of my good friends, Isaac. He actually introduced me to my wife. He sent me on a blind date with Emily. He was one of my students, my second year teaching the class. He's a really good friend. At the time, he was an illustrator for a video game company who was just interested in fantasy books. And he saw that there was a class at BYU and he was like, "I'm gonna take that."

He now works for me full-time. Though, fun story on this. You know how some people joke that in their marriage there's one person they could cheat with, like a celebrity? When I hired Isaac, he was like, "I will come and do things for you full time. But if Tad Williams ever asks me, I'm doing something for Tad Williams," his favorite book series. This summer, Tad Williams needed a map for the new Osten Ard books. Isaac is like, "So, I do maps for Sanderson." He's like, "Sure, do one for me. Great!" So Isaac's been working on that and it has been a dream come true for him.

Isaac and I, we sit down and we do brainstorming sessions for the art. He's done almost all of the symbols and maps in my books, except the ones that he commissions someone else to do because he wanted to get a different style for it or the first book, Elantris, I did the symbols. That's why the Elantris symbols are not quite as visually interesting as some of Isaac's. They fit the world but I drew those and my artistic chops are... So Isaac and I sit down, we brainstorm and we say, "What do we want this to look like? What's the feel of it?" So I'll outline what the planets and the world are and then he will bring up historical- like he went and got Renaissance star charts and said, "Do any of these work? What do you like?" We kind of narrowed it down to ones that have the right feel but I said, "I want it more like this, more like this." He took that and ran with it and gave me iterations. He's like, "Here's four different versions of a map for Scadrial. Which one do you like?" And then I'll give him that and he'll then do four iterations on that, saying, "Here are different designs of this. Which one of these do you like?" Anyone who's an artist knows that illustrators, that's what they do. So we come up with it and then I say, "This style, go," and then he does all the maps.

source

Quote

Questioner

At the very front cover of the Arcanum Unbounded there is a constellation map, that has a lot of the cosmere stars on it. What point-of-view is that from?

Brandon Sanderson

So the question is, in Arcanum Unbounded... Yes, the cover of Arcanum Unbounded has a star chart in it, a map. And the question is, is this from a specific viewpoint, and if so, what is that viewpoint. So, yes, it is from a specific viewpoint. It's the sky as seen from-- Some of the stars are enhanced a bit-- But it's the sky as seen from a specific point of reference that Isaac came up with when I told-- gave him this assignment. He's my illustrator for a lot of the interior art of the books and he RAFO'd it when we were asked at the release party. So I'm going to RAFO it until he decides he wants to reveal it.

source

Brandon literally refers people to Isaac when they ask about the chart.

Quote

Argent

I do have a follow-up on the map? All of the constellations-- Or most of the constellations seem fairly straightforward. The one containing Roshar has a Shardbearer or Herald…

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, mmhmm. There are a couple--

Argent

Yet Sel gets a lamp?

Brandon Sanderson

Sel gets a lamp, yes.

Argent

Why?

Brandon Sanderson

Ask Isaac about that, he came up with the symbolism. And I like all the symbolism. But I would go to him about the symbolism of that. Ask him to write an essay for my website about it, because he has really cool-- Cause again, cause I said to him, "I want a star map" and I wasn't gonna put constellations on it, right? Just, the one in the back cover that doesn't have constellations, that's what I asked for and he came back and said "I did a constellation map with these things, what do you think?" and I'm like "that’s cool! Can you explain these to me?" so I'm just gonna let Isaac go with that, he chose it, he chose the perspective and the point of view, so it's his map, and he's canon on that.

Footnote: You can find the follow-up conversation between Argent and Isaac Stewart in the Miscellaneous 2017 event.
source

 

I also didn't disagree that it could be from Yolen.  I'm disagreeing with it influencing the cultures that the constellations are based on.  With everything that's been said of the chart, it has to come *after* the Shattering and all the planets were established. The person, singular, who comisssioned it, had the painter create the constellations according to his or her travels and understandings about the cosmere. The other people that live on that planet or whatever, have different constellations.

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1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

@RShara I actually addressed the second half of your response when I responded to The One Who Connects, so I won't repeat the full details here, but basically Brandon didn't actually say it is flat, as he points out it is distorted. As to the first, I think we will have to disagree - after all, the painting still could be from Yolen - that isn't ruled out, just that those constellations aren't Yolish, and that quote is from Isaac, not Brandon ;-) We know it isn't Silverlight, we don't know it isn't from Yolen.

I think that from how Brandon has described the Cognitive Realm and specifically the means by which a worldhopper could use the CR to travel between sub-astrals makes it pretty clear that the CR as it maps to a specific physical location is an unfolded topographical projection of the 3 dimensional surface of the planet.

The reason that the exapanses would retain a somewhat fixed location (fixed enough to be mapped on the Shadesmar map) is that there would be some durable physical relationship between the physical location of a star in relation to another star as it orbits galactic center. The spin of singular planet, the orbital transit of the singular planet around it's star, and it's rotational motion around the galactic central point would all do little to diminish the relative relational positions of these  star systems from one another at non-astronomical time scales. Post shattering, the timescale of motion in the Cosmere dwarf galaxy would be negligible in changing these relative frameworks. The expanse are mapped in the shadesmar map precisely because of their seemingly durable fixity because massive relative distances separate them. The expanse to transition to a planet  like Braize in the same solar system is probably moving along the border of Shadesmar, Khriss explicitily mentions in the Roshar essay in Arcanum Unbounded that it is a dangerous place to go, which heavily implies that an experienced and knowledgable worldhopper could travel there.

Because of the nature of the Cognitive Realm stretching to accomodate high densities of thought and shrinking where cognitive activity is low or absent, the Shadesmar map is most likely just an abstraction that is generally right. Given enough time for the orbital positions to shift enough in relation to galactic center, you would probably find the expanses around the edges of Roshar rotating to new spots as well, just like the planets probably currently do.

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@RShara On the flat part, that might be what it mean, true, and it is likely that is all it means - I addressed that with hyperbolic geometry. Hyperbolic geometry, though, means something can be flat and still have unexpected dynamics that reflect curves, and areas with a perimiter that is small and an area that is massive - not exactly flat as most people think of it. And fair point on the art, though I don't see it as contradicting my argument - the stars are in three dimensions, so mapping them to a surface in an environment which is shaped by belief, and the more people believe something makes it more real, would indicate that the relations are determined by collective perception. But I do concede, my argument has holes, and it might well be that physically closer stars directly connect without people seeing or believing them to be close. The quotes do indicate that Isaac handles the symbols, and that bolded section at the end, though, does only point out the constellations drawn are something Brandon didn't come up with, not that he didn't choose the stars, or even that he told Isaac to draw the stars in a general way, and Isaac used that as a base, or finally that Isaac had free reign with the layout and it has nothing to do with the layout of the stars and their planets in the Cognitive realm.

 

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I agree with the parts corresponding to the planets, but my main point was the space between planets, which can't be a manifold mapped onto another surface as only the planets are sound, while space is empty, so how do you define which areas stitch together in an environment shaped by belief?

That argument has merritt, but the problem persists - if you track the stars in the night sky from earth, which way would you walk to get to Rigel? Which way to get to Canopus or Sirius or Arcturus? The only one which would make sense would be Polaris. What about the Moon? The planets rotate, so unless the stars are due north or south all the time you can't map them to a single direction.

Edited by Ixthos
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1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

@RShara On the flat part, that might be what it mean, true, and it is likely that is all it means - I addressed that with hyperbolic geometry. Hyperbolic geometry, though, means something can be flat and still have unexpected dynamics that reflect curves, and areas with a perimiter that is small and an area that is massive - not exactly flat as most people think of it. And fair point on the art, though I don't see it as contradicting my argument - the stars are in three dimensions, so mapping them to a surface in an environment which is shaped by belief, and the more people believe something makes it more real, would indicate that the relations are determined by collective perception. But I do concede, my argument has holes, and it might well be that physically closer stars directly connect without people seeing or believing them to be close. The quotes do indicate that Isaac handles the symbols, and that bolded section at the end, though, does only point out the constellations drawn are something Brandon didn't come up with, not that he didn't choose the stars, or even that he told Isaac to draw the stars in a general way, and Isaac used that as a base, or finally that Isaac had free reign with the layout and it has nothing to do with the layout of the stars and their planets in the Cognitive realm.

Yes, but it does say that Isaac came up with the location for the viewpoint that the stars are seen from, the actually constellations, and what they mean and are named and how they're shaped. And they went back and forth on drawing the star chart, but Isaac is the canon on it. Heck, he gets to decide when to reveal the location. Whatever Isaac says about the chart, you can take it as canon.

Remember that while Brandon has a couple of people on his team who are familiar with mathematics to a degree, none of them are in fact, expert mathematicians or topologists (though some of the fans are).  Brandon just wants Shadesmar to be flat, and thinks he can make it work that way.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

One that's probably for Peter. Shadesmar appears to be flat. And you talk about people walking between worlds. But worlds are spherical. What's up with that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This has given him a bit of a headache. It works in my brain, and I'm pretty sure we can make it on the world. Remember, things people think about manifest in Shadesmar, so I've been able to work out a map where places that just aren't inhabited are shrunk in Shadesmar.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And they turn into points, so you can just walk off them?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah.

source

 

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@RShara I have read that quote, you don't need to post it again ;-) I realise you disagree with me, and that is fair :-) I would like to know what you feel the reason the relation between Roshar and the other systems maps to that art though. You know my opinion, but I am curious about yours.

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