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Steel and Iron


Eldergod3

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Could a single mistborn levitate a metal object by pushing and pulling on it at fhe same time?  I tried looking on Arcanum but didnt really see anything that helped me. 

Currently reading Shadows of Self so i’m probably just rushing ahead of myself. 

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It would fall unless you were pushing and pulling really hard. We see things that are affected by a push are still affected by gravity, and have an arc when they fall. But Kelsier and Vin kept a coin between them with opposing pushes hard enough to flatten it.

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18 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

It would fall unless you were pushing and pulling really hard. We see things that are affected by a push are still affected by gravity, and have an arc when they fall. But Kelsier and Vin kept a coin between them with opposing pushes hard enough to flatten it.

Assuming you push/pull from your center of mass, I don't think that push/pull strength should have anything to do with it.  You'd have to push/pull with the same strength to cancel out the lateral forces, but that would cancel out the vertical forces too, leaving nothing to oppose gravity.  

However, if we interpret @Weltall's WOB as implying that it's possible to move your push/pull origin to somewhere else in your body (e.g. your hand), then you could levitate anything above any part of your body (e.g. a coin above your hand).  

However, if we take that one step further and assume that you can simultaneously have different push/pull origins, then you could indeed cancel out gravity and levitate anything, anywhere.  

 

4 hours ago, Doomdrinker said:

In well of ascension Zane levitates himself by pushing and pulling on a coin against the side of a tower. 

Do you have more specifics or a quote or something?  I don't remember this happening.  I do remember Zane levitating and rotating via a coin on the ground.  

Edited by Scion of the Mists
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6 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

However, if we interpret @Weltall's WOB as implying that it's possible to move your push/pull origin to somewhere else in your body (e.g. your hand), then you could levitate anything above any part of your body (e.g. a coin above your hand).  

We've seen this happen at least once, right? In Alloy of Law (?) Wax pushes a spiral notebook against the underside of a table at which he is currently seated. If he was pushing from the center of his chest or wherever it's normally described, the notebook wouldn't go up into the bottom of the table from the seated position, he would basically have to be laying under the table (which the vanishers may notice as being odd behavior). Also, he's showing off his push control because he is able to lift the book to the table without lifting the table off of the floor, so he may have enough control to levitate an object (without a table or something holding it back) as well.

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9 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Assuming you push/pull from your center of mass, I don't think that push/pull strength should have anything to do with it.  You'd have to push/pull with the same strength to cancel out the lateral forces, but that would cancel out the vertical forces too, leaving nothing to oppose gravity.  

However, if we interpret @Weltall's WOB as implying that it's possible to move your push/pull origin to somewhere else in your body (e.g. your hand), then you could levitate anything above any part of your body (e.g. a coin above your hand).  

However, if we take that one step further and assume that you can simultaneously have different push/pull origins, then you could indeed cancel out gravity and levitate anything, anywhere.  

 

I disagree. We never see evidence that you can push from a different part of your body.

It would be relatively easy to levitate a coin above you, just pushing lightly to cancel out gravity, but if you wanted to levitate a coin in front you, you'd have to be careful to push and pull strong enough that you keep it "pinched" between the pulls, thus not letting it fall because of gravity. "Really strong" may have been pushing it on my part, as we can hold coins up with a pinch (though that's probably do to friction, not a pushing force).

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32 minutes ago, marles said:

We've seen this happen at least once, right? In Alloy of Law (?) Wax pushes a spiral notebook against the underside of a table at which he is currently seated. If he was pushing from the center of his chest or wherever it's normally described, the notebook wouldn't go up into the bottom of the table from the seated position, he would basically have to be laying under the table (which the vanishers may notice as being odd behavior). Also, he's showing off his push control because he is able to lift the book to the table without lifting the table off of the floor, so he may have enough control to levitate an object (without a table or something holding it back) as well.

A human's center of mass (while standing) is below their belly button.  I'm pretty sure that Brandon has admitted that the description of the lines coming out of the chest was a mistake.  A seated human would have a slightly higher center of mass.  Regardless, it's likely below where a normal table surface would be.  

(Caveat that I could never quite grasp what that passage was trying to describe)

 

31 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

I disagree. We never see evidence that you can push from a different part of your body.

It would be relatively easy to levitate a coin above you, just pushing lightly to cancel out gravity, but if you wanted to levitate a coin in front you, you'd have to be careful to push and pull strong enough that you keep it "pinched" between the pulls, thus not letting it fall because of gravity. "Really strong" may have been pushing it on my part, as we can hold coins up with a pinch (though that's probably do to friction, not a pushing force).

I was extrapolating from the WOB that @Weltall posted:

Quote

Questioner

So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, this is possible. That's less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can't. This would be like a Mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can't. That's the sort of level we're going with.

Necarion

So a savant could?

Brandon Sanderson

A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there's a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there's a transfer of energy directly from the Spiritual Realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you're gonna run into that, and it's gonna be, it's gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible.

source

I would imagine that this quote about hovering a coin can't just apply to balancing a coin directly above your head.  That would be a really strange way to talk about it, and not something that most people in-world would think was impossible (it's not really any different than the Allomancer balancing on top of a coin).  

While we've never explicitly seen anything described as a moved push/pull location, we have seen some strange behavior which differs from the simple center of mass to center of mass paradigm.  Kelsier can push/pull on different parts of metal, spinning the bars.  Zane can rotate himself in midair (not sure how this is possible without moving the push/pull origin).  

Edited by Scion of the Mists
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1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

A human's center of mass (while standing) is below their belly button.  I'm pretty sure that Brandon has admitted that the description of the lines coming out of the chest was a mistake.  A seated human would have a slightly higher center of mass.  Regardless, it's likely below where a normal table surface would be.  

(Caveat that I could never quite grasp what that passage was trying to describe)

Thanks, didn't know that Brandon had said that the chest was a mistake.

1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

So, while we've never explicitly seen a moved push/pull location, we have seen some strange behavior which differs from the simple center of mass to center of mass paradigm.  Kelsier can push/pull on different parts of metal, spinning the bars.  Zane can rotate himself in midair (not sure how this is possible without moving the push/pull origin).  

Yeah, I don't think coinshots are limited to pushing only from their center of mass. It makes sense a lot of time when they're pushing themselves off objects for movement purposes but not too much else. Any time somebody shot a coin forward they would have to first hold the coin pretty low and center to their body instead of shoving it out of their hand. There is also a time or two when Wax mentions pushing bullets as he shoots them so that they penetrate better. Again, if he couldn't determine where his push is originating he would either be holding his gun incredibly awkwardly or his push would throw his shot completely off. I think those instances are enough to determine that coinshots (at least maybe some of the more skilled/experienced ones) can determine the origin of the push.

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Here's the full scene. 

"Zane hung a few feet away. He'd found a coin—Vin couldn't fathom how—and was Pushing against it below him. However, he didn't shoot away. He hovered above the wall top, just a few feet in the air, still in a half tumble from Vin's kick.

As Vin watched, Zane rotated slowly in the air, hand outstretched beneath him, twisting like a skilled acrobat on a pole. There was a look of intense concentration on his face, and his muscles—all of them, arms, face, chest—were taut. He turned in the air until he was facing her"

I seem to have made up the side of the tower bit, my bad. 

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On 4/12/2018 at 2:01 PM, Doomdrinker said:

As Vin watched, Zane rotated slowly in the air, hand outstretched beneath him, twisting like a skilled acrobat on a pole. There was a look of intense concentration on his face, and his muscles—all of them, arms, face, chest—were taut. He turned in the air until he was facing her"

So this part seems impossible based on the simplified model of pushing we know.  I think the most simple explanation is that origin of the push can be moved away from your center of mass.  Similar to most uses of Allomancy, I don't think that Zane is aware of exactly how he's accomplishing this - I think it's just skill/intuition.  

(Side note: it is apparently possible to rotate your body to a different orientation without touching anything.  There are videos from the ISS of astronauts "turning around" in space, which is fascinating.  However, the motions required to accomplish this are not compatible with how Zane is described in the passage.)

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Taking an aside into physics, it is impossible for an object to rotate based only on forces acting on its center of mass. To cause a rotation you need a torque, which can be basically defined as the magnitude of a force applied x the perpendicular distance to the point of rotation. If the force is at the center of mass, it has zero perpendicular distance, so the torque comes out to zero. (additional source, first sentence of this Wikipedia article). For Zane to rotate, he had to have pushed from a point different from his center of mass, ergo it must be possible for an experienced Steel or Iron user to do.

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On 4/13/2018 at 5:05 PM, Elenion said:

Taking an aside into physics, it is impossible for an object to rotate based only on forces acting on its center of mass. To cause a rotation you need a torque, which can be basically defined as the magnitude of a force applied x the perpendicular distance to the point of rotation. If the force is at the center of mass, it has zero perpendicular distance, so the torque comes out to zero. (additional source, first sentence of this Wikipedia article). For Zane to rotate, he had to have pushed from a point different from his center of mass, ergo it must be possible for an experienced Steel or Iron user to do.

So, I'm not going to claim to understand the science behind it, but because people are not rigid bodies, it is actually possible to rotate in midair.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_righting_reflex or this video of astronauts in the ISS.  

However, it's clear that Zane is not performing this motion, so I agree that there must be a different push point.  

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14 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

So, I'm not going to claim to understand the science behind it, but because people are not rigid bodies, it is actually possible to rotate in midair.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_righting_reflex or this video of astronauts in the ISS.  

However, it's clear that Zane is not performing this motion, so I agree that there must be a different push point.  

 

On 4/13/2018 at 3:05 PM, Elenion said:

Taking an aside into physics, it is impossible for an object to rotate based only on forces acting on its center of mass. To cause a rotation you need a torque, which can be basically defined as the magnitude of a force applied x the perpendicular distance to the point of rotation. If the force is at the center of mass, it has zero perpendicular distance, so the torque comes out to zero. (additional source, first sentence of this Wikipedia article). For Zane to rotate, he had to have pushed from a point different from his center of mass, ergo it must be possible for an experienced Steel or Iron user to do.

Zanes got a hemalurgic spike that enhances his skill with Allomantic Steel, so that may grant him abilities to do so....

 
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2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

So, I'm not going to claim to understand the science behind it, but because people are not rigid bodies, it is actually possible to rotate in midair.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_righting_reflex or this video of astronauts in the ISS.  

However, it's clear that Zane is not performing this motion, so I agree that there must be a different push point.  

The object is accomplishing this by changing the location of its center of mass (which changes the moment of inertia). That move wouldn't work if your Steelpush came from your center of mass, regardless of where it was.

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so then it seems pretty clear that pushes are not exclusively based on the anatomical center of mass... could it be that it originates from the coinshot’s self perceived center of mass? 

my guess is that it is more likely that while it is much easier to push from your center of mass (or close to it) and it is more instinctual, but over time and after lots of practice (probably being savant level) you could manipulate this like Zane and Kelsier does.

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10 hours ago, etmental said:

so then it seems pretty clear that pushes are not exclusively based on the anatomical center of mass... could it be that it originates from the coinshot’s self perceived center of mass? 

my guess is that it is more likely that while it is much easier to push from your center of mass (or close to it) and it is more instinctual, but over time and after lots of practice (probably being savant level) you could manipulate this like Zane and Kelsier does.

I don't think it would be from your self-perceived center of mass, because that means a Coinshot pushing off of an object could accidentally knock themself on their back if they visualized their center of mass as in their chest instead of their abdomen. I think your second theory is correct: the default is your center of mass, but with practice you can change that.

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8 hours ago, Elenion said:

I don't think it would be from your self-perceived center of mass, because that means a Coinshot pushing off of an object could accidentally knock themself on their back if they visualized their center of mass as in their chest instead of their abdomen. I think your second theory is correct: the default is your center of mass, but with practice you can change that.

That's how I think of it too.  With the caveat that the Scadrians are doing this instinctually (I don't think they have a good understanding of the physics behind it).  

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  • 5 months later...

I doubt you could use the Steel-Iron to levitate an object for the same physical reasons others already pointed.

Zane's feat is mostly countering the gravity with his Steel using a coin as anchor and he could rotate on himself with his own moviment to unbalance himself a bit and start a controlled movement

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