Can a Spren Change Types?

[Kidpen]

I was wondering, if an honorspren suddenly decided it was more honorable to follow the law, would it become a highspren? Or vice versa? That seems like it might make sense.

[Calderis]

I agree with R. They aren't formed merely by their opinion, but by the investiture that composes them and the concepts they embody. 

Just as a Shard will only be change  your mixing with another intent, a spren is what it is unless something else is mixed in. 

[RShara]

I don't think so.  The investiture that they're made of is fixed.  There would need to be some outside force exerted on the spren in order to change it.

[Dunkum]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

I agree with R. They aren't formed merely by their opinion, but by the investiture that composes them and the concepts they embody. 

But what if the human concepts they are based on change?  Suppose for instance that the Azish somehow took over the world, within a few generations, the concept of "Honor" might be slowly modified to align more closely with "Lawfulness"  in the minds of the people of the world.  in that case, do you think that the spren themselves would change?  Maybe that particular example is a bit extreme, but it seems like we should be able to find spren types that are close enough together that they might begin to blend if the concepts they are based on change across the world.  For that matter, would a better understanding of chemistry and physics cause some of the various spren representing the physical world change or merge?

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Dunkum said:

But what if the human concepts they are based on change?  Suppose for instance that the Azish somehow took over the world, within a few generations, the concept of "Honor" might be slowly modified to align more closely with "Lawfulness"  in the minds of the people of the world.  in that case, do you think that the spren themselves would change?  Maybe that particular example is a bit extreme, but it seems like we should be able to find spren types that are close enough together that they might begin to blend if the concepts they are based on change across the world.  For that matter, would a better understanding of chemistry and physics cause some of the various spren representing the physical world change or merge?

Well that's not what the OP asked.  But no, I don't think so.  Honorspren, Cryptics, etc, haven't been thought of on Roshar for a couple millennia, and "honorable" to the current Alethi cultural dominance isn't really very honorable.  Yet honorspren are still the same.

[Calderis]

@Dunkum I agree with @RShara that that wasn't what was asked. I however completely disagree that the Spren wouldn't change there.

The Spren themselves not being thought of by humans for long is meaningless in this context, because the concepts that they embody are unavoidable. Cryptics, with the fractal heads and Pattern's real name, seem to represent the underlying mathematics in nature. Don't really see them changing much ever. But honor? If the entirety of Roshar shifted to think of honor  as brutal and ruthless then yes I think honorspren would be changed. Changing a concept is difficult though and takes a long time to occur. 

In the case of Alethkar and honor, they may not be very honorable, but they're perfectly aware of what honor is supposed to be as a concept. Amaram's public face is proof of that. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calderis

[Kidpen]

Would a spren even be able to change their mind about what is honorable?

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Kidpen said:

Would a spren even be able to change their mind about what is honorable?

I don't believe so, and that is a big distinction in the lines between them. For example, honorspren will allow their binder to break their oaths if it is for a good reason, but highspren believe any broken oath is against honor. 

Quote

 Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

source

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calderis

[Dunkum]

48 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Dunkum I agree with @RShara that that wasn't what was asked. I however completely disagree that the Spren wouldn't change there.

Agree that it is not quite what was asked, but I felt it was closely enough related to warrant bringing up.  Spren likely cannot change themselves, but that isn't necessarily to say that spren cannot be changed.