[OB] Odium Theories

[Zelly]

So as I was writing my theory ended up as 2 Theories......with possible overlap.

1) Why Odium is Hatred

Presuming the Shattering was unexpected and unwanted by Adonalsium, it/he was probably seriously pissed off as it happened.  What's he feeling at the end?  Likely: rage, betrayal, and hatred.

So the shard that was created SHOULD have been Passion, but at the time all of Ado's passion was instead all these negative angry emotions, resulting in a shard of condensed GOD RAGE.

 

2) Odium is not Hatred, but the Hated One

 

What if, instead of being the shard of hatred, Rayse was the one who was hated? It's passive, rather than active.

In the 2nd letter it says 

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

 

We've established that Adonalsium is, at the time of his death, a seething pit of anger (least in this theory).  Rayse, I believe, was either set up as scapegoat for this anger, or received it willingly, or pretended to be a scapegoat and actually wanted it.

Quote

He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

Possible he was remorseful for something he had done and was trying to act as a sacrifice to atone, while the other 16+ individuals were using his sacrifice as as a punishment.  With unintended consequences.

If he bears hatred, but is not causing hatred, it may explain some of the weird effects he's having on people. They are reacting post-hatred.  The righteous indignant: "No!  It wasn't my fault! You made this happen!" like Amaram. The equally angry where rage meets rage (the thrill).  Those that hide into escapism (The Heart of the Revel).  Those that react by passing on their pain sadistically (Shallan's father and brother, several possible Unmade).

[Calderis]

Odium is both hatred, and that which inspires hatred. 

Quote

Millennium

Some dictionaries list two meanings for the word "odium": the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others. Do both of these apply to the Shard with that name?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

 

[Grishhammer]

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

Odium is both hatred, and that which inspires hatred. 

 

So, In other words, Odium is the paragon of internet trolls.

[Zelly]

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

Odium is both hatred, and that which inspires hatred. 

 

I can see both of those, but also a third aspect of him hating himself.  Or having some passive form of being a receptacle of hatred.  Which could explain the ancient Singers talking about how Odium takes away passions sometimes.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

I can see both of those, but also a third aspect of him hating himself.  Or having some passive form of being a receptacle of hatred.  Which could explain the ancient Singers talking about how Odium takes away passions sometimes.

My personal take on that is that hatred consumes. Hatred feeds on other emotions to fuel itself, leaving a person hollow. 

He uses that for the explanation of "Passion," but in my opinion it's a lie. I think if he were truly passion, those feelings would be encouraged, not stolen. 

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Hatred feeds on other emotions to fuel itself, leaving a person hollow.
I think if he were truly passion, those feelings would be encouraged, not stolen. 

Devil's Advocate(not that I really care which one he is): You can make a person angry by Rioting their anger(what you think Passion would do). You can make a person angry by Soothing everything but anger(what Odium seems to do).

It's not entirely relevant, but intense Passion, intense Hatred, they aren't all that different. You end up at the same place: so focused on something, be it Adolin's passion for Shardblades, or Moash's hatred for Elhokar, or our own enthrallment when reading Brandon's books, that we don't(or can't) focus on other things in the world around us or even in our own minds. That state of singular focus is a factor of the intensity of what we're feeling. What we're actually feeling, what we feel that way about, it's irrelevant. The more engaged you are in what's going on, the harder it is to focus on something else. That's not unique to hatred.

Hate is just... longer-term(usually), and that starts to smother everything else, while most other intense emotions(or the event/person they are tied to) generally subside quick enough that everything else can go back to normal, which is where "hatred consumes" comes from. It's the best known example, because it's the emotion most conducive to longer periods of intensity. If a person were to get enthralled in reading Mistborn Era 1, they might feel a little drained by the end of it, but they could rebound fairly quickly. If someone was enthralled enough to read the entirety of Stormlight Archives or Wheel of Time in one sitting, that feeling of "Well, now what?" is gonna hit them pretty hard when they finish.

Everything else gets shoved further and further to the wayside the longer that intense focus lasts(be it a focus on revenge, on the narrative, on physical training, even on the Intent of your Shard, like what happened to Ati).

[The Deity]

47 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Hate is just... longer-term(usually), and that starts to smother everything else, while most other intense emotions(or the event/person they are tied to) generally subside quick enough that everything else can go back to normal, which is where "hatred consumes" comes from. It's the best known example, because it's the emotion most conducive to longer periods of intensity.

Exactly, the Thrill (when described in Dalinar's view) starts as more of a guttural feeling. When the Thrill takes over it blind the other senses and focuses on bloodlust. It would be the same as if someone Rioted only anger and vengeance, and Soothed  self-inhibition which causes the person to direct all of his/her emotional energy into the one force that they were meant to feel.

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by FeruchemicalBreath

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

You can make a person angry by Rioting their anger(what you think Passion would do). You can make a person angry by Soothing everything but anger(what Odium seems to do).

And I would agree with that assessment if we saw a follower of Odium at any point have positive emotions enflamed, or if the new rhythms were not, without exception, consistent of concepts that are filled with Odious intent. 

[Leyrann]

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

My personal take on that is that hatred consumes. Hatred feeds on other emotions to fuel itself, leaving a person hollow. 

He uses that for the explanation of "Passion," but in my opinion it's a lie. I think if he were truly passion, those feelings would be encouraged, not stolen. 

But what about the Unmade then? They inspire all kinds of different emotions. Joy, contest, lust, anger, it's all in there, but all driven to it's extreme, and once driven to it's extreme it becomes negative.

I think what we're seeing is not being consumed by hatred, but being consumed by any emotion until nothing else is left. We're just not used to seeing it outside of hatred because, as @The One Who Connects mentioned, most emotions tend to not linger like that. But here, they do.

I still believe that Odium is actually about enflaming emotions, but once you enflame emotions too much, or perhaps too long, nothing else remains, and that looks like hatred because it's what you 'normally' see only with hatred. This would actually mean, for the record, that both meanings of Odium would indeed apply to him, in a classical Aes Sedai answer where it's technically true, but very misleading.

[Spoolofwhool]

59 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

But what about the Unmade then? They inspire all kinds of different emotions. Joy, contest, lust, anger, it's all in there, but all driven to it's extreme, and once driven to it's extreme it becomes negative.

That is a somewhat good point, however the Unmade don't actually make for a good example, since they are not necessarily bound to follow the same intent as Odium. Therefore, they could be acting according to their own intent, which could be more related to other emotions, not just hatred, while Odium is just bound to hatred. 

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JOSH

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Splinters often have their own intent.

 

[source]

 

[Leyrann]

8 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That is a somewhat good point, however the Unmade don't actually make for a good example, since they are not necessarily bound to follow the same intent as Odium. Therefore, they could be acting according to their own intent, which could be more related to other emotions, not just hatred, while Odium is just bound to hatred. 

 

I would argue, though, that a splinter of a Shard cannot have an Intent outside of the Intent of a Shard, even though it might not be the entire Intent of a Shard.

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

Well the thing about Passion is its not really an Intent, not in the way any of the other revealed Shard names are. It makes sense for Rayse's own name for what he's become, his desire to rename himself something other than Hatred, because we all want to be the heroes of our own stories, and its very hard to continue to tell yourself you're the good guy when your Shard name, meant to reflect your essence, is the embodiment of Hatred.

And for instance, when you've rallied to your cause native inhabitants of a world who were displaced and subsequently mistreated by the new arrivals, it is very easy to establish yourself as their patron, even if you're known as Odium, because they're entirely justified in hating those who have taken from them and harmed them. Not all hatred is innately bad, such as when its aimed at injustice. But its infinitely easier to establish yourself as their patron, rally them to your cause, if you're known to them as Passion, because it eliminates the negative connotations of being primarily motivated by hatred, and makes it that much easier for them, just like you, to feel confident in your own righteousness when you argue you're motivated by passion, rather than hatred. 

Because passion, while an emotion itself, is also frequently a qualifier for other emotions and intents. What I mean is pretty much anything else you feel or do, you can feel or do passionately. So Passion ENCOMPASSES Odium, or Hatred, because certainly anything you hate, you can hate passionately. And in fact, the more you hate something, the more passionate you are said to be....and even though you've dropped hatred from that description of yourself and are not directly acknowledging that what you are feeling is technically passionate hatred.....the hatred that incited your passion is still implicit, it hasn't gone away just because you're describing yourself as passionate.

So my point is, Rayse calling himself Passion isn't inaccurate from a certain POV, but I don't think it could ever be more than an attempt to rebrand how he's perceived by others, it can't accurately describe or reframe his true Intent. Because Passion can describe Odium and everything within his purview, everything he stands for, but Odium itself can not adequately describe Passion and everything that should lie within its purview. Hatred can not be extended to being passionate about something joyful or truthful or anything with more definitively positive connotations, even though passion can be focused to be about hatred. 

As for the Unmade, they're spren as well as Splinters of Odium, right? So what if whatever it is within them that lets them enflame emotions other than Hatred (but always in the SERVICE of Hatred, furthering Odium's goals of enflaming discord and dissension among the people of Roshar), what if as was said above, a Splinter can not have an Intent that isn't part of their parent Shard's Intent.....but a Splinter that isn't just a piece of their parent Shard, but is also bonded to a sentient being that bears Investiture originating from someplace other than just their parent Shard, can feasibly have aspects to their Intent that come from their, rather than just their parent Shard.

So, since spren are essentially all Splinters, perhaps whether Voidspren can enflame just negative emotions or positive and negative emotions depends on whose Splinters they are. Voidspren and Unmade who can only influence emotions stemming from or related to Hatred might be Splinters of Odium, but any Unmade who were initially Splinters of Adonalsium existing on Roshar before any of the Shards arrived, or Splinters of Honor or Cultivation that Odium co-opted by Investing enough of himself to make them more his Splinters than anyone else's....maybe these are the Unmade who can enflame joy and other positive emotions, because that's Odium's Investiture tapping into whatever's left over from other Investiture, like Adonalsium's pre-Shattering Investiture itself.

Edited March 25, 2018 by ROSHtaFARian2.0

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

1) but any Unmade who were initially Splinters of Adonalsium existing on Roshar before any of the Shards arrived
2) or Splinters of H&C that Odium co-opted by Investing enough to make them his Splinters.. maybe these Unmade can enflame joy and other positive emotions

1) All Investiture got assigned to one of the Shards during the Shattering. There is no "of Adonalsium" anymore, so to speak. The second the Shattering happened, they'd have become "of H, C or O."
2) Is the Thrill a positive emotion? That's our only example of "kind-of" co-opted among the currently known Unmade.

1 hour ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

As for the Unmade, they're spren as well as Splinters of Odium, right?

Technically, yes. Whether that actually means anything is still unknown. If Odium splintered off his power and that power gained sentience, it would be both a Splinter and a Spren. If Odium shoved enough of his power into a preexisting Spren for it to be classified as a Splinter, then it would be both a Splinter and a Spren. Spoiler Tag b/c Tangent.

Spoiler

 

We don't have anything more definitive than our own suppositions on what "made, then unmade" implies. This could be them being made by Adonalsium at some point and being "unmade" by the influx of Odium's power, but I'd really call that being changed. To me, making involves adding and being unmade involves removing.

Quote

un·make

ˌənˈmāk/

verb

past tense: unmade; past participle: unmade

1. reverse or undo the making of; annul.

This could be as simple as Odium splintering off portions of his power to make them, and then removing something from them afterwards(for reasons unknown), which is an action that Odium has been shown to do. Or it could be the popular theory I mentioned above. It could be something entirely different. We just don't know.

 

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

1) All Investiture got assigned to one of the Shards during the Shattering. There is no "of Adonalsium" anymore, so to speak. The second the Shattering happened, they'd have become "of H, C or O."
2) Is the Thrill a positive emotion? That's our only example of "kind-of" co-opted among the currently known Unmade.

1) Well, no, I'm not sure this is a given? True, I worded my post wrong, but I was using 'of Adonalsium' as shorthand for any Investiture that wasn't specifically of Honor, Cultivation or Odium and predated their arrival, since its not like we know every Shardic Intent by name. My point is that per that very quote you linked there...whatever mechanism existed for determining what Investiture located elsewhere throughout the cosmere became associated with what Shard, there's no reason to assume it limited Investiture on Roshar to only becoming linked with Honor, Cultivation and Odium since none of those three became linked to that world immediately after the Shattering and were present elsewhere in the cosmere before they arrived on Roshar. In fact, IMO there's every reason not to assume that. There are spren for just about every phenomenon in creation, and this includes numerous types that really have nothing to do with Honor, Cultivation or Odium. Which only makes sense given that three out of sixteen Intents stemming from the initial power of creation wouldn't cover or connect to everything the fully combined power/intent behind creation created. This is the WoB about all spren being of Honor, Cultivation or a mix of both....and I think people assume too much from it?

 

Quote

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

The fact that he specifies the spren you are running into rather than all spren, or even just all spren other than Voidspren, or not of Odium, makes me think that he intended this answer to be a reference to the spren who are relevant to the plot. Basically, the ones who can form Nahel bonds, or at least have enough of a degree of sentience to interact with the characters. This isn't the same thing as him saying every spren on Roshar became linked to the Investiture of those three Shards and those three Shards alone at the time of the Shattering. It's just as likely that the Investiture comprising the spren on Roshar at the time of the Shattering became associated with whatever Shard whose Intent their nature or essence paired with. As an example, between Honor, Cultivation and Odium, its theoretically possible that something like rotspren are made up of Cultivation's Investiture....but assuming rotspren existed on Roshar long before Cultivation arrived, its just as possible that their Investiture is associated with say, Ruin, the Intent of entropy and decay.

For all we know, the reason some spren are sentient and some aren't might not just be because only certain types gain sentience through their interactions with sentient beings from the Physical Realm and their ideas/perceptions....it also could be related to whether the Shard their Investiture is linked to is Invested in Roshar as a whole. Hence, the spren we are running into, ie the spren who interact with the characters, form bonds with them, are significant to the plot....these spren are all of Honor or Cultivation (or Odium), because being made up of the same Investiture that makes up the Shards actively Invested in their world might be what separates them from the mindless spren who are all associated with Shards that are light years away or Shattered or largely Invested elsewhere. 

So for all we know, if Ruin had come to Roshar instead of forming Scadrial with Preservation, perhaps his presence and Investiture might have meant that it'd be rotspren and all other Ruin-associated spren that were capable of evolving sentience. There are spren for most every physical phenomenon AND spren for most emotions and even ideals....and the arrival of the three Shards on Roshar didn't create any of these things. They existed before they got there, spren existed before they got there, so it doesn't make much sense to me that even honorspren and cultivationspren didn't exist until Honor and Cultivation arrived and actively began Investing in Roshar, splitting off Splinters, etc. Honor's presence isn't required for the idea of Honor to exist on other worlds he's not on, so the concept of Honor should have existed on Roshar long before he arrived as well....which means, there's no reason honorspren wouldn't have existed before he arrived too. Maybe his arrival, his active Investing simply meant that the spren who were already associated with him, or partially associated with him, began to gain sentience because as we've often heard....enough Investiture will eventually gain sentience, even on its own. Spren associated with Shards far removed from Roshar are too minute, too far removed from the whole of their parent Shard to ever gain that sentience, but spren associated with one or more of the three Shards actually present on Roshar have the potential because the sources of their own Investiture are right there, amplifying or reflecting or simply resonating with their own.

So this is what I was getting at with Odium co-opting spren that aren't specifically of the three Shards on Roshar. Let's look at Ashertmarn:

Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, is the final of the three great Mindless Unmade. His gift to men is not prophecy or battle focus, but a lust for indulgence. 

He's specifically referred to as one of the Mindless Unmade, implying that he doesn't have the sentience shown by spren we KNOW to be mostly comprised of the Investiture of any of the three Roshar Shards. Consider also that his nature doesn't seem to have much to do with any of the three Roshar Shards either. Revelry or self-indulgence....whichever way you look at his nature, neither of those has much to do with the Intent of Honor. Neither do they seem to have much to do with Cultivation....you could make a case for the latter, something about how cultivation is linked to people being able to enjoy themselves, civilization progressing to the point of parties and enjoyment rather than simply survival, wine and other things being the product of cultivation techniques....but all of those seem like quite a reach, IMO.

What I'm proposing is that Ashertmarn is associated with another Shard, most likely one whose Intent we don't know yet. This supposedly ancient spren existed on Roshar before the Shattering, so when that happened, as the WoB you linked said, the Investiture that comprised Ashertmarn became the Investiture of whatever Intent was most closely linked to his nature. Revelry doesn't seem to have much to do with any of the known Intents, I don't think, but imagine one of the unknown Shards has an Intent related to revelry....not that specifically perhaps, but something like Joy or anything that encompasses simply taking pleasure in being alive, enjoying or being grateful for the creation around you.

That actually sounds a lot like how the Listeners pre-human arrival are described as being, their way of life, doesn't it? Existing peacefully on Roshar, not possessed of the same drive the initial Voidbringers brought with them to war among themselves, a people whose existence revolved around music and song. They certainly sounded like a people who took pleasure in just being alive, full of celebration. Of Revelry. So just like I believe honorspren existed before the arrival of Honor, since his presence isn't necessary to CREATE Honor....some distant Shard with a name like Revelry or Joy or Thankfulness or whatever it might be....their presence wouldn't be necessary for something like a revelryspren to exist. Its distance would mean it was mindless, according to my train of thought. BUT if the Listeners threw enough revels, enough celebrations, created enough of the phenomenon it was linked to often enough, it could still be present enough or noteworthy enough - especially to them - that when Odium Invested in Roshar to continue his war with Honor and Cultivation, it was one of the perfect candidates for Odium to Unmake and reshape in his image.

Large, frequently present and thus well known to the Listeners, most likely having great significance to them because some kind of large celebrationspren linked to or appearing in concert with their greatest celebrations....he would be an ideal symbol for Odium to have the Listeners rally behind. Splintering enough of his power and Investing it directly into this pre-existing ancient spren, Odium could fill it with enough Investiture that while it still was made up of the same Investiture of that unknown Shard it was originally associated with....now it was also made up of even MORE of Odium's Investiture, enough that it makes it more OF him than of that initial Shard.

And so, the presence of Odium's Investiture as a large source of his power now means that his 'gift' is now more in accordance with Odium's Intent than whatever it was initially. But because he wasn't ORIGINALLY of Odium, his new influx of Odium's Investiture just amplified whatever his gift or effect he previously had....but now refocused through the lens of Odium's Intent. The end result being, the Heart of Revels might pre-Odium have been a spren who inspired or amplified a feeling of revelry, of celebration in the Listeners. But post-Odium, the Intent not just of feeling hatred but of inspiring hatred....that same gift now became enflaming that desire to celebrate, amplifying the passion for it to the point of excess....and so celebration, someone rejoicing in what they have becomes self-indulgence, celebrating beyond the point of moderation, gluttony, greed....the kind of oblivious merriment that inspires hatred in those who don't have the luxury of throwing wild parties where they can feast and drink to their heart's content. Basically, the exact kind of resentments we see lots of people holding against the Alethi nobility....the kind of people Ashertmarn's 'gift' is given to, making and keeping them the focus of other peoples' hatred and inspiring and encouraging dissent in accordance with Odium's Intent.

So yes, his gift enflames passions that aren't innately hateful in and of themselves....which according to what I was saying above, is something that's only possible because his gift didn't initially stem from Odium's Investiture, but from a Shard all about rejoicing or celebrating or being thankful. Because that's not a passion Odium can inspire or create....only turn into a source of hatred, amplifying until it eclipses everything else for a person and makes them a symbol of greed and gluttony and wastefulness to everyone around them who doesn't have these things and now feels nothing but hatred for them.

2) As for the Thrill being our only example of an emotion 'kind of' co-opted among the currenty unknown Unmade, again, I don't totally agree with your interpretation of the WoB you linked. He simply said kind of in response to someone essentially asking does the Thrill being red mean it's co-opted Investiture, since we've been told red is the color of corrupted Investiture. There's a lot of room for interpretation as to which part of that is kind of accurate. It doesn't actually mean that only a visibly red Unmade has been co-opted by Odium IMO, which seems to be your train of thought here. But Brandon often replies based on what he THINKS someone is trying to figure out with a specific question. Let me posit an alternative:

If I were Brandon looking at that question, the way it was phrased, I might be responding to the assumption drawn by that question, not necessarily just the question itself. So maybe the Thrill is co-opted, the spren of another Shard Odium hijacked or unmade and reshaped the way I'm theorizing all the Unmade actually are...but maybe the kind of is because it shouldn't be assumed (as the question seems to) that the presence of red is a necessary indicator of Investiture being co-opted. What I mean is, just because we know certain things that are red have been because that's how corrupted Investiture looks in the cosmere, that doesn't necessarily mean ALL corrupted or co-opted Investiture is automatically red. Maybe a certain level or amount of external Investiture is needed before it becomes red or corrupted in general, or maybe the red is an indicator of a Investiture associated with a specific Intent is corrupted by another Shard whose Intent is in opposition of its original one. The red being a sign of the struggle between two Shards' Investiture and thus still an indicator of corrupted Investiture, but no longer a NECESSARY indicator, such as in instances where the original Investiture's Intent isn't specifically being subverted or corrupted.

So to explore this line of thinking...the Heart of Revels isn't associated with red, and thus not obviously an example of Odium having corrupted another Shard's Investiture. But if like I outlined above, Ashertmarn's original Investiture was associated with a Shard all about joy and taking pleasure from life...and Odium's influx of Investiture simply amplified that gift of inspiring revelry to the point of excess, until it became self-indulgence that inspired hatred in others....Odium's Investiture and Intent were never in direct conflict with what was initially there. It simply added to it until it became something it wasn't intended to be, true, but it didn't require subverting what it was entirely.

In contrast, what if the Thrill wasn't originally born of an Intent that Odium could simply add to and amplify? It inspires a battle rage, an unreasoning ferocity that drives people to mindless violence. Obviously an easy source of hate and something that would inspire hatred in those around people struck by the Thrill, their victims. But we've seen lots of instances in the cosmere already of where fighting is done because of Intents that are in opposition to Hatred. It's a common theme that sometimes its necessary to fight for the greater good, in defense of others. This came up a lot in the original Mistborn trilogy, in conjunction with Allomancy and Preservation. Snapping occurred in the defense of themselves or others. Acting to preserve live. Nergaoul is another of the three mindless Unmade, suggesting to me that its original Investiture was again linked to a Shard not native to Roshar. What if it was originally associated with Preservation? Its gift meant to inspire people to a fearless berserker state to fight in defense of life? Then Odium's efforts to Unmake it, to twist it in his image and to serve his purposes, that would require not just amplifying what was already there but actively corrupting it. Twisting its original Intent, which was in direct opposition to his, because he had no use for a gift that inspired people to preserve life, there's nothing to inspire hatred in that, he needed to make it so its initial Preservation Investiture wouldn't get in the way of taking life undeservedly....and that corruption of its initial Investiture's ESSENCE, not just the mixing of two Investitures, could be the reason the Thrill is red while the Heart of Revels and its influence is not.

 

 

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

whatever mechanism existed for determining what Investiture located elsewhere throughout the cosmere became associated with what Shard, there's no reason to assume it limited Investiture on Roshar to only becoming linked with Honor, Cultivation and Odium

Regarding the Unmade specifically(what I was replying to), there is every reason to assume they are of one of those 3. It's the same concept as Rshara's reasoning for why Cusicesh is of one of those three.

Quote

As I've said, all investiture is associated with a Shard.  There is no Adonalsium-only Investiture any more. And it's unlikely that Brandon wants to introduce a 4th Shard into the Rosharan mix, so Cusicesh has to be associated with Honor, Cultivation, or Odium.

The Unmade are important to the story. I don't feel like Brandon is gonna have the Unmade's nature be related to another Shard. Minor Spren of such and such emotion/concept, sure. But the bigger players? It'd hurt the self-contained aspect that Brandon is trying to keep if we can only explain why say.. Nergaoul it the way he is because he's originally related to Dominion, or something like that. For as many out-of-story WoBs as we have, Brandon still wants the important details to be in the story, for the less obsessed reader-base.

12 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

There are spren for just about every phenomenon in creation, and this includes numerous types that really have nothing to do with Honor, Cultivation or Odium. Which only makes sense given that three out of sixteen Intents stemming from the initial power of creation wouldn't cover or connect to everything the fully combined power/intent behind creation created. This is the WoB about all spren being of Honor, Cultivation or a mix of both....and I think people assume too much from it?

Thanks for the WoB, but as I mentioned above, my reasons are literary in nature, rather than from in-story logic/evidence perspective. Logically, the various types of Spren should have ties to all of the Shards, and I see no problem with that. If it turned out that lovespren(passionspren) were related to Devotion, that'd make sense(or your rotspren and Ruin example). Brandon revealing that info to us is not a big deal by any stretch, and it doesn't affect the story at all. But it seems like the story is going in a direction where the explanation for "made, then unmade" is gonna be important later on. And from a literary perspective, I don't think Brandon is gonna have something important like that be linked to a distant Shard.

12 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

2) It doesn't actually mean that only a visibly red Unmade has been co-opted by Odium IMO, which seems to be your train of thought here.

My train of thought was this, and only this: You made a supposition that maybe only a preexisting Unmade that was corrupted by Odium could influence positive emotions. (What I quoted) I asked if the Thrill counted as a "positive" emotion, as Nergaoul is the only example we currently have that might be corrupted. (What I said)

Maybe I should've said "our only possibly confirmed example" in my original post, but I didn't intend to imply what you seemed to think I was implying.

---

Your thoughts on red being an indicator, but not one that always shows up is interesting. Not sure I'm on board yet, but it's an intrigued possibility.

I don't like your "non-sentient because my patron shard isn't residing here" idea. I'm not sure how to properly explain why, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Edited March 26, 2018 by The One Who Connects
lovespren aren't a thing, apparently