Quantum Hoid

[Storyspren]

Getting on record another crazy Hoid theory here. 

Several Spren note that that once they discover things they always knew. Which is weird and has been noted as very quantumy. 

Maybe Hoid isn't trying to RE-form Adonalsium, but form Adonalsium, as it were, in the first place. Maybe he's trying to make it always have been the case that Adonalsium was and will be thus and so and WILL HAVE always been thus and so once it's determined. Which in one sense it already has been but in another sense not. 

So technically reforming Adonalsium would only be a partial description of his goal. 

All evidence for him reforming Adonalsium is consistent with this crazy theory. And it would provide a story reason for some of the vague quantum weirdness.

To be clear, on this theory Hoid doesn't have to BE Adonalsium. 

What do you guys think? Too much coffee?

 

[Yata]

The Spren's stuff happen for a couple of reasons:

- the junction between them and their Knight's Soul. Therefore they instant will know stuffs they could not because they extended themself into the Knight's Soul (if you read Emperor Soul you know the whole history of someone is "stored" into his spirit web).

- a cognitive limitation, the Spren in PR have a mind-deficit overcomed by the Bond. It's completely under the realm of possibility some of their knowledge is actually sealed until some requirements are completed.

- The Spiritual Realm's loose-time dependant make some streams of informations from past or future possible and those influence the present. For example, young Kal's spear proficiency.

 

This doesn't say much for your theory but Adonalsium will not become a thing in the past if Hoid in the future manage to assembly.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Yata

[Zelly]

You can never too much coffee! Hahahahaha. *Breathes*

I swear there has also been some non Spren examples of future-spiritual perception connection (wow I need a better term). 

Like Kaladin being immediately good with the spear. He had innate talent, but he also had that connection to his future self. He was good because he would be good. 

I think there was a Dalinar example, but I gotta go digging and check.

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Zellyia said:

Like Kaladin being immediately good with the spear. He had innate talent, but he also had that connection to his future self. He was good because he would be good. 

That's a stretch.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

That's a stretch.

It's not a stretch, you may notice I refered the same thing.

It's stated into a WoB .

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Why is Kaladin so proficient--like naturally born to wield a spear. Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So destiny is a strong term. I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something. But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

<Inaudible> Time and space.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's like Syl says in one of the books. "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then. Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you." You see some weird Connection things too. And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections. Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach. There's gonna be a connection there. It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

source

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Yata

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

It's not a stretch, you may notice I refered the same thing.

It's stated into a WoB .

 

He also says (twice) that it's just that Kaladin is naturally gifted:

Quote

I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something.

Quote

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

 

[Zelly]

I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

He can be naturally gifted and have his gifts be sort of cemented by his spiritual connection.  It's more....anticipation connection than ability.

We kinda do this all the time in deliberate ways:  I practiced for a race.  I raced well. I raced well because I practiced because I knew I would be in a race.

Spiritual connection just does this subconsciously. It knew about the race even though we didn't.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Zellyia

[TheHeadHancho]

When he was talking about Kaladin’s aptitude with a spear he was referring to the skill level he had, not the method of his gaining of that ability.

he is describing the level of skill the connection grants him.

Edited March 21, 2018 by TheHeadHancho
Simplicity

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

14 hours ago, Storyspren said:

Maybe Hoid isn't trying to RE-form Adonalsium, but form Adonalsium, as it were, in the first place. Maybe he's trying to make it always have been the case that Adonalsium was and will be thus and so and WILL HAVE always been thus and so once it's determined. Which in one sense it already has been but in another sense not. 

This is a very interesting line of speculation, one thing that has always stuck out to me was Hoid's claim to have "started out as words on a page". This is super cryptic, but like how Hoid usually speaks, is quite possibly the literal truth.

Time to put the tinfoil hat on with the flashlight attached and grab some more coffee, because we're going deep into the Rabbit hole here.

What if Hoid is a living engram? A complex signalling device created by Adonalsium in the past precisely to achieve a unified Adonalsium in the future? This would explain why he is always arriving at particular places at significant times without understanding why he is there. He is a signalling system created by a dead god, to move and shape the currents of the future towards a particular end. He would be like the small nudge of fate to particular lives that is instrumental in affecting a large scale plan made long in the past. This would also fit with how his stories are leading and transformative, but rely on the subjective interpretation by the listener to affect their self-transformation.

We know that time and space don't exist in the spiritual realm. I just read a good analogy of this in Philip K. Dick's Exegesis, which is thinking of the universe as a single point projected outward into all things in the Universe but not from one fixed point. From this point, where time and space are non-existant, it's possible to project into any point in time or space, including the possible but non-substantial alternate timelines of potential reality. From this vantage, perhaps Adonalsium prefigured his own demise, and created Hoid to reassemble the fragments of his divided mind, and maybe the purpose of Hoid's actions is just reforming Adonalsium, or maybe it's simply to save as many of his creations as possible. Whatever it is, I really do like the idea of Hoid being an agent of a dead god's plan, have an upvote!

 

[Storyspren]

3 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

This is a very interesting line of speculation, one thing that has always stuck out to me was Hoid's claim to have "started out as words on a page". This is super cryptic, but like how Hoid usually speaks, is quite possibly the literal truth.

Time to put the tinfoil hat on with the flashlight attached and grab some more coffee, because we're going deep into the Rabbit hole here.

What if Hoid is a living engram? A complex signalling device created by Adonalsium in the past precisely to achieve a unified Adonalsium in the future? This would explain why he is always arriving at particular places at significant times without understanding why he is there. He is a signalling system created by a dead god, to move and shape the currents of the future towards a particular end. He would be like the small nudge of fate to particular lives that is instrumental in affecting a large scale plan made long in the past. This would also fit with how his stories are leading and transformative, but rely on the subjective interpretation by the listener to affect their self-transformation.

We know that time and space don't exist in the spiritual realm. I just read a good analogy of this in Philip K. Dick's Exegesis, which is thinking of the universe as a single point projected outward into all things in the Universe but not from one fixed point. From this point, where time and space are non-existant, it's possible to project into any point in time or space, including the possible but non-substantial alternate timelines of potential reality. From this vantage, perhaps Adonalsium prefigured his own demise, and created Hoid to reassemble the fragments of his divided mind, and maybe the purpose of Hoid's actions is just reforming Adonalsium, or maybe it's simply to save as many of his creations as possible. Whatever it is, I really do like the idea of Hoid being an agent of a dead god's plan, have an upvote!

 

This brings up a pressing question that keeps bothering me. Why would Adonalsium not prevent his own death?

Maybe to experience limitations like the cobbler dude's "the one?" Maybe to hide from a bigger, more serious threat than the conspirators who killed him? On my crazy theory it's to give rise to himself but any combo makes things interesting.

 

[theRoyalDingus]

You know, I don't understand any of this, but the words "Quantum Hoid" just resonate so deeply with my soul I know it must be true.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

3 hours ago, Storyspren said:

This brings up a pressing question that keeps bothering me. Why would Adonalsium not prevent his own death?

Maybe to experience limitations like the cobbler dude's "the one?" Maybe to hide from a bigger, more serious threat than the conspirators who killed him? On my crazy theory it's to give rise to himself but any combo makes things interesting.

There's lots of interesting speculation along these lines in this theory thread (which I personally am a proponent of):

Basic premise is that Adonalsium shatters and reforms in an oscillating repeating cycle of division and unity, in attempt to gain greater self-understanding by isolating aspects of his galactic mind to experience the fullness of a singular aspect not tempered by any other aspect of his mind. Then after having learned the unifying principle of that particular division he reforms until his mind is split again along different lines, all in an effort to reach self-perfection. Total speculation and surmise, but fun stuff to think about to be sure.

[The One Who Connects]

23 hours ago, Storyspren said:

This brings up a pressing question that keeps bothering me. Why would Adonalsium not prevent his own death?

If we use the "Investiture that gained Sentience" theory, the power may not have thought it could be "killed" like normal people(which was technically true), so it may have just let them try it.
Adonalsium may have been curious what they were doing and didn't react/realize until it was too late. It's not like there were any examples of what "killing a god" looked like to compare with.
Adonalsium may have engineered the situation for reasons unknown.

Heck, Adonalsium may have simply been off-planet doing stuff(like creating Roshar) and got back to Yolen at the last moment. There are a lot of possibilities.

[Leyrann]

5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

If we use the "Investiture that gained Sentience" theory, the power may not have thought it could be "killed" like normal people(which was technically true), so it may have just let them try it.
Adonalsium may have been curious what they were doing and didn't react/realize until it was too late. It's not like there were any examples of what "killing a god" looked like to compare with.
Adonalsium may have engineered the situation for reasons unknown.

Heck, Adonalsium may have simply been off-planet doing stuff(like creating Roshar) and got back to Yolen at the last moment. There are a lot of possibilities.

I guess it all boils down to the questions:

Was Adonalsium omniscient?
Was Adonalsium omnipotent?
Was Adonalsium omnipresent?

[Steeldancer]

I don't think Adonalsium can be reformed. Referring to my theory, essentially I believe Adonalsium came about as a result of investiture being released by the Big Bang, and then formed as all investiture formed one, single mind. Thus, no human can become Adonalsium. They don't have an infinite mind. Plus, i don't think that kind of infinite mind can recurr again unless literally all investiture becomes free, which means no more life. 

Now, what Hoid is doing is definitely odd. He's collecting investitures. He tells stories. He connects himself to shards, despite the fact that we know he turned down a shard at the shattering. But, i don't think Adonalsium can be reforged. 

[Mistspren]

Quantum mechanics does have some bearing on the cosmere. This is seen in the interlude with the ardents who measure the flamespren. When one value is defined, it is locked. This reflects Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics. Whether or not investiture messes with quantum mechanics too much for those principles to apply is unknown, but it is probably safe to assume the basis is true, as we have WoB that physics still applies, only with some additions in the cosmere. 

Relevant WoB

Spoiler

Kurkistan
Are the laws of physics in the cosmere Spiritually-based?

Brandon Sanderson
The laws of physics in the cosmere are ours except where they have been changed by Spiritual influence. So I guess you could say yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e6360

There was another one, but I can’t find it.

[Storyspren]

On 3/21/2018 at 9:05 PM, theRoyalDingus said:

You know, I don't understand any of this, but the words "Quantum Hoid" just resonate so deeply with my soul I know it must be true.

That's basically my entire basis for it too.

"Quantum Hoid" - I just want to say it over and over.

[Storyspren]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:32 AM, Mistspren said:

Quantum mechanics does have some bearing on the cosmere. This is seen in the interlude with the ardents who measure the flamespren. When one value is defined, it is locked. This reflects Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics. Whether or not investiture messes with quantum mechanics too much for those principles to apply is unknown, but it is probably safe to assume the basis is true, as we have WoB that physics still applies, only with some additions in the cosmere. 

Relevant WoB

  Reveal hidden contents

Kurkistan
Are the laws of physics in the cosmere Spiritually-based?

Brandon Sanderson
The laws of physics in the cosmere are ours except where they have been changed by Spiritual influence. So I guess you could say yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e6360

There was another one, but I can’t find it.

Oh that's right. I remember that part. I refuse to believe that Captain Sanderson does pure flavor interludes. This has to have some bearing on some important something or other.

[Augustine]

On 3/23/2018 at 10:32 AM, Mistspren said:

Quantum mechanics does have some bearing on the cosmere. This is seen in the interlude with the ardents who measure the flamespren. When one value is defined, it is locked. This reflects Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics. Whether or not investiture messes with quantum mechanics too much for those principles to apply is unknown, but it is probably safe to assume the basis is true, as we have WoB that physics still applies, only with some additions in the cosmere. 

Relevant WoB

  Hide contents

Kurkistan
Are the laws of physics in the cosmere Spiritually-based?

Brandon Sanderson
The laws of physics in the cosmere are ours except where they have been changed by Spiritual influence. So I guess you could say yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e6360

There was another one, but I can’t find it.

You are definitely correct here @Mistspren. Brandon goes to quite a lot of trouble to keep Cosmere physics consistent.  He has stated, investiture follows thermodynamics and can be thought of as third universal form of the Cosmere (matter, energy, investiture).  I read a rather long post from Brandon on all the work his group did on getting redshift and speed bubbles to make sense.  I think it is safe to say any fundamental principals of physics in our world are consistent with the Cosmere, unless acted upon by Investiture.   

The topic of how Quantum mechanics would impact our story is a different matter.  We have had some Quantum understanding for around 100 years.  We can postulate what tech may be made possible one day but none of us are renting time machines to extend a Holiday.   Perhaps we could speculate a bit on how long Quantum Hoid has understood Quantum mechanics.  Of course, that will lead us to speculate on if it matters.  If Quantum Hoid has time travel hey may have worked it all out yesterday.  Or tomorrow. 

 

[ItsAllAboutDragons]

Yes, it's clear as day.

Hoid was inspired by Quantum Leap. He leaps from planet to planet, solving the local problems, each time hoping that the next leap will bring him home.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

7 hours ago, ItsAllAboutDragons said:

Yes, it's clear as day.

Hoid was inspired by Quantum Leap. He leaps from planet to planet, solving the local problems, each time hoping that the next leap will bring him home.

That's some funny rust brother.

According to this theory, Adonalsium's cognitive shadow would be the ziggy to Hoid's Scott Bakula.

[Xtafa]

On 3/22/2018 at 1:34 PM, Storyspren said:

Why would Adonalsium not prevent his own death?

 

I sadly can't remember where I read it, maybe my brain is making it up

But i remember reading [possibly in a WoB] That the shattering was voluntary, Adonalsium felt he had become stagnant, he was god, knew all, was experiencing nothing new. 

To shatter would be an adventure and cause new events to happen in the cosmere.  

 

[I'll see if I can find it] 

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Xtafa said:

I sadly can't remember where I read it, maybe my brain is making it up

But i remember reading [possibly in a WoB] That the shattering was voluntary, Adonalsium felt he had become stagnant, he was god, knew all, was experiencing nothing new. 

To shatter would be an adventure and cause new events to happen in the cosmere.  

 

[I'll see if I can find it] 

That's a theory. I don't know what it was called exactly, but it's a theory here from a few months ago.

[Fezzik]

The integral of perfection through unity, maybe?

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Xtafa, here's the link to the theory:

Totally speculative theory, but an interesting idea to think about. If the theory is true and Brandon was somehow able to transfer his brain into a Brandonbot, this theory does hold out the possibility of Cosmere Era 2, with different shards with different intents. I would have to be able to transfer my brain into a robot as well to enjoy it, but we are traveling ever forwards into the future, right?

It was spun off another good theory page, which you can find here: