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[OB] Kaladin written as a gay man?


Kaladins

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Now, starting this off, I'm writing this out of personal experiences with stuff like compulsory heterosexuality and things. 

Something that was really prevalent throughout the books and especially OB was how much I related to Kaladin's experiences with romance. 

Some very stick-out experiences include the almost unnatural utterances of being romantically involved with women. When he was musing over Syl always being with him (Paraphrase: "He thought about Syl floating over him as he procreated with a woman"), which is obviously a very real concern, but at the same time just feels out of place when he thinks it. 

There is also the flashbacks to Tarah. These ones felt the most relatable to me, as I had an ex-girlfriend who I felt the exact same way about as Kaladin describes Tarah. The "nontraditional" beauty, seeing her personality more than her physical looks, feeling a moral obligation to loving her but not willing to uphend anything to be with her (in my case: I broke up with my Tarah after a month of not interacting with her). I considered myself attracted to her despite not feeling traditional attraction, if only because I thought she had a cute personality. 

His compulsory attraction to Shallan also fits into experiences I have had (though not as definitive as Tarah). Being comfortable with a girl, so feeling an almost obligation to be "in love" with her, despite not having the attachment infatuation has, and then realizing it was just a strong platonic comfort you felt with them (and a familial feeling). Him not even being upset at seeing Shallan with Adolin, and even being satisfied he didn't have to pursue her strengthens it. 

If anyone has anymore thoughts on this, I'd like to hear them! 

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  • Greywatch changed the title to [OB] Kaladin written as a gay man?

Please remember to add [OB] before your topic title in the Oathbringer spoiler board in the future.

Very interesting! I'm not any kind of authority on how accurate Kaladin's experience is to gay men, but I appreciate you sharing your experiences with it. I think it's a great read; I love the take! 

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@Kaladins I personally read Kaladin as a character who is attracted to women, as it seems he has fairly strong sexual feelings about Shallan (i.e. arousal while holding her close during the high storm) and also Laral to an extent (though that is early teens attraction), but I definitely think he is a character who could easily also be attracted to men.  I am a particular fan of Kaladin's relationship with Adolin, and I think this could easily be explored as a romantic relationship without disturbing the canon.  They have a very close relationship with a lot of admiration and chemistry, including noticing each other physically quite a bit.  While I doubt Brandon will go there (to my sadness), I think it's a very plausible read! 

Sometimes I wonder how much Brandon realizes he is writing like this... he has actually said that Shallan is bisexual even though he did not intend to write her that way (this was before OB), and I noticed we got some very admiring descriptions of Jasnah from Shallan's perspective in OB, which almost seemed to be intentionally deepening this characterization.  I'm hopeful that at some point we will get a PoV character in a non-heteronormative relationship, though I know Brandon has expressed concern about doing so unless he can do it well.

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@Dreamstorm Honestly I don't remember the sexual attraction bit, but that may be because I'm a useless gay who doesn't realize That Kind Of Thing, but I hold the same feelings for Brandon. He delves so deep into characters feelings he makes a lot of them gay accidentally.

Also, I am a huge fan of Kaladin and Renarin. Two huge nerds who are very intellectually stimulating together with Kaladin's fascination with Medical Things and Renarin's (very relatable ND feel) of liking explaining things about himself others may not understand. It also seems like if that happened it would be one step closer to our true OTP of the Cosmere, Kaladin x Happiness (because of the healthiness of the relationship). 

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With the same base I see Kaladin sexually attracted to  neither women nor men.

Emotional connection - yes - but even for Sanderson standards there was never a sexual attraction to anyone in my opinion.

So my conclusion - he is either demisexual if not asexual, what can nicely connect with his trust issues.

If he needs an emotional connection first to feel sexual attraction he will possible end up with someone he trusts the most.

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14 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

How about bisexual? That way nobody is left behind :)

I mean, I don't see being gay as leaving anyone "behind", it is just a different experience. Him being bisexual would be rad too, and I'm not detracting from the experiences of bisexual people, and I can't really speak from the perspective of relatability to a bisexual person as I did with my personal perspective. Saying bisexual isn't leaving anyone behind is a bit odd of word choice, to be real. 

If anyone has a more relatability with him being bisexual it would be a nice insight, for me. 

Edited by Kaladins
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7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

:rolleyes: I didn't mean it like that! :rolleyes: 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think if I said ''nobody left unsatisfied'' would be even worse at this point ;p

This is a family friendly forum after all...

Ooh, hahah! Yeah that makes sense, and I did laugh at the little joke. Thanks for the clarification (sometimes my brain doesn't understand Most Things).

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14 hours ago, Vissy said:

I mean every Sanderson character is asexual on the surface. 

So true. But in practice, the lack of overt sexuality just means that most characters are never confirmed for straight. It opens the door to speculation, hence this thread. And in the case of young men, like Kaladin and Adolin, the lack of obvious opposite-sex lust makes it look like they can’t be straight.

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To this point there is already a homosexual relationship within Kaladin's crew.  Well more specifically involving one of Kaladin's crew and another man.  There is a scene where Drehy is going to propose to another man.  Kaladin finds the idea initially to be feminine, but the other guys talk about how wanting to be with another man is the most masculine thing you could do.

Not saying this precludes Kaladin from also being gay, but it would surprise me that he would write both of them that way from a narrative viewpoint.

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As a bisexual guy, I might be able to add some extra context to this. 

I'd never really thought about Kaladin being gay or bi before, but in hindsight I can kind of see it now. For me, I only focused on my attraction to females until I realized I was bi, and I always wrote off my attractions to males as not being that, if that makes any sense. Plus, I totally considered being gay or bi bad for a long time simply because I was told it was bad, so it would make perfect sense for Kaladin to think it's a little weird if it's not a normal part of Alethi society or if he's never heard of it before. 

Also, the way he talked and thought about Adolin throughout OB does kind of feel a bit like a crush. It might never develop farther than that, but there is definitely the potential for some attraction there. 

Slightly off-topic, but my personal opinion on the love triangle would be for Shallan and Adolin to get divorced so Kaladin and Adolin could hook up. Of course, this would only happen as Shallan realizes she is just not ready for a relationship. I've already got way off topic, so I'm gonna stop now. 

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Just now, StrikerEZ said:

As a bisexual guy, I might be able to add some extra context to this. 

I'd never really thought about Kaladin being gay or bi before, but in hindsight I can kind of see it now. For me, I only focused on my attraction to females until I realized I was bi, and I always wrote off my attractions to males as not being that, if that makes any sense. Plus, I totally considered being gay or bi bad for a long time simply because I was told it was bad, so it would make perfect sense for Kaladin to think it's a little weird if it's not a normal part of Alethi society or if he's never heard of it before. 

Also, the way he talked and thought about Adolin throughout OB does kind of feel a bit like a crush. It might never develop farther than that, but there is definitely the potential for some attraction there. 

Slightly off-topic, but my personal opinion on the love triangle would be for Shallan and Adolin to get divorced so Kaladin and Adolin could hook up. Of course, this would only happen as Shallan realizes she is just not ready for a relationship. I've already got way off topic, so I'm gonna stop now. 

Striker! You live!

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On 3/22/2018 at 6:32 AM, dbulick said:

To this point there is already a homosexual relationship within Kaladin's crew.  Well more specifically involving one of Kaladin's crew and another man.  There is a scene where Drehy is going to propose to another man.  Kaladin finds the idea initially to be feminine, but the other guys talk about how wanting to be with another man is the most masculine thing you could do.

Not saying this precludes Kaladin from also being gay, but it would surprise me that he would write both of them that way from a narrative viewpoint.

This was the first thing I thought of.  As several people have expressed, I also can picture Kaladin being gay or bi (more easily than many of Sanderson's characters), but this scene with him and Drehy in particular makes me think otherwise.  Of course it could be construed that Kaladin is overcompensating in this scene, acting more averse to the idea of a gay relationship than he actually is just to hide his own feelings.  But I don't feel like there's a hidden subtext to Kaladin's comment, just because he becomes embarrassed when the other bridgemen call him out - I think he called Drehy feminine without thinking first or meaning something else.  

The main problem with this theory, and a question that I've had about Alethi society for some time, is what exactly their views on homosexuality are.  It sometimes frustrates me when authors write a fictional world where the people are medieval and technologically primitive, and yet they have very modern, socially progressive views that don't seem to reflect the rest of their culture.  Now of course, you could probably find examples of "primitive" cultures throughout history that have been more sympathetic towards homosexuality than Western culture, but I feel like in general, social progressiveness and acceptance of homosexuality come hand in hand with advancements in technology and science. 

From all the available evidence, it seems like the Alethi society would be unquestionably intolerant towards homosexuality.  For one thing, like most fantasy cultures, the Alethi are more technologically primitive than the modern world (aside from all their fabrial science), and so it would be unsurprising if their social views were less advanced as well.  For another thing, Alethi culture in particular is extremely stringent and stratified, with very strict gender roles and customs of clothing.  Heterosexual marriage seems to be very socially, politically and religiously important, and once married, men and women have very strict and defined roles within that marriage.  Now of course, gender roles and social stratification in Alethi society are slowly being questioned in the Stormlight books, partially because of the appearance of female Radiants, so it is quite possible that eventually Alethi society will become more open-minded and tolerant.  However, as Alethi culture stands currently, there are very strict gender rules and expectations and breaking those expectations is frowned upon (Navani wearing a safehand glove instead of a button-sleeve, Dalinar learning how to write, etc.).  

Basically, it seems to me like the apparent acceptance of homosexuality in Alethi society is rather out of place.  I don't think that it's realistic for a culture that has such strict gender expectations to be so tolerant and open-minded.  Kaladin seems to stigmatize Drehy's gay relationship slightly, but all of the other bridgemen wholeheartedly support him, and when Sigzil voices some concerns about Drehy, Kaladin basically says "What's the big deal?"  In addition, Shallan is just mildly curious by the possibility that Jasnah might be lesbian - you would think that Shallan would dissaprove of this, because she is very traditional and seems to unthinkingly support many of the gender expectations of Alethi society (such as covering her safehand).  There are contradictions in the writing as well, because if Jasnah is lesbian, then she clearly doesn't feel comfortable with making that public knowledge and talking about it, which suggests that Alethi society is intolerant towards homosexuality, but if that is the case then why doesn't anyone have a problem with Drehy?

To get back to the point, I think that before we can make an assessment about whether or not Kaladin is gay, we need to know more about Alethi feelings towards homosexuality.  If the culture is very intolerant and oppressive towards homosexuality, then Kaladin's comment to Drehy could be interpreted as meaning "I'm also gay but I feel like I have to overcompensate as part of my in-the-closet charade, and so I'm going to pretend that I dissaprove of your relationship and that find it feminine."  If, on the other hand, Alethi society is very accepting and open to the idea of homosexuality, then there would be no reason for Kaladin to conceal the fact that he's gay, and the other bridgemen would probably know about it - somebody would probably have brought it up during Kaladin's brief exchange with Drehy.  Of course, there is also the possibility that Kaladin is unsure if he is gay, and is questioning his sexuality, but I'm not sure if Brandon would write a main character like that - I feel like he would either choose to make them gay or straight.

I would like Brandon to outline a little more clearly exactly how Alethi society feels towards homosexuality, because as it is, Drehy's gay relationship just feels sort of thrown into the book without an explanation about how it fits into the culture.  Kaladin's comment to Sigzil saying "What's the big deal?" makes it seem like the Alethi have very loose restrictions on sexuality, but knowing Alethi society, I feel like there must be more to it than that.  I think it's quite possible that Alethi views on homosexuality may be explored more as we learn more about Jasnah - if she's lesbian then I can see it causing much more of a stir than male homosexuality, just because Alethi society is more repressive towards women than men in general.  

Sorry this is so long, I've been thinking about this for awhile, this thread gave me an opportunity to post my thoughts!

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@Llarimar You bring up lot of interesting points. Alethi society seems to be both accepting of homosexuality but so stringent with gender roles there would be a lot, and I mean A LOT, of intolerance and misguided homophobia if you announced you were gay. Like if you told your normally tolerant parent you were gay and they went on a tirade about how you will never give them grandchildren or never be able to have a proper wedding. 

Alethi society is probably that type of parent/etc personified as a race in this context, in which they will say they accept it and even have rules about it (Sigzil's whole thing about proper reassignment paperwork...), But sadly don't have the biggest yes pride views about it. 

I imagine Kaladin's comment comes from societal views about how men are for women and women are for men because of the warlike Alethi always keeping THOSE roles in place due to the sheer amount of fighting done. The women stay at home with the village/community/children or in your tent to scribe for you, and the men are busy fighting on Grand Scale to protect you. But... If theres no woman to raise the children or scribe for you than who will do it? Or if there's no man to go off to watch for you, who will do it? Obviously the more feminine/masculine one in the relationship, and while Drehy obviously wasn't the least prolific in the guard, Kaladin almost assumed because of his relationship he would be the effeminate one, perhaps.

An offhand comment like that makes more sense as an automatic response than a really careful response, in Kaladin's case, I believe. And many questioning sexuality folks tend to make societally off hand comments such as that all the time, before realizing who they are themselves. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Llarimar said:

The main problem with this theory, and a question that I've had about Alethi society for some time, is what exactly their views on homosexuality are.  It sometimes frustrates me when authors write a fictional world where the people are medieval and technologically primitive, and yet they have very modern, socially progressive views that don't seem to reflect the rest of their culture. 

I am not sure why you think that acceptance and even celebration of homosexuality necessarily went hand-in-hand with being generally "socially progressive", or level of technology. Case in point, ancient Greece, with classical Athens as the most extreme example. The athenians were extraordinarily oppressive towards women, slaves and non-citizens, but were certainly very positive towards male homosexuality.

 

1 hour ago, Kaladins said:

I imagine Kaladin's comment comes from societal views about how men are for women and women are for men because of the warlike Alethi always keeping THOSE roles in place due to the sheer amount of fighting done. The women stay at home with the village/community/children or in your tent to scribe for you, and the men are busy fighting on Grand Scale to protect you. But... If theres no woman to raise the children or scribe for you than who will do it?

Only officers need women to scribe for them in Alethi armies and they can also use sisters or unrelated scribes. Most rural dark-eyed women are illiterate - Hesina was the only one who could read and write in Hearthstone. And from what we have seen, there are plenty of unmarried, childless older soldiers. I really don't see how strict gender roles would conflict with sexual orientation for most military men. As to civilians, there is a lot of leeway in what both men and women could be doing and for most occupations, having a spouse of a different sex might be helpful, but not absolutely necessary.

Speaking of children, according to Sanderson, stormlight suffusing the ecology greatly reduces frequency of infectious diseases on Roshar, which believably explains why people exhibit the so-called "Western European Marriage Pattern", only with many more opportunities for  women than was the case iRL.

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1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I am not sure why you think that acceptance and even celebration of homosexuality necessarily went hand-in-hand with being generally "socially progressive", or level of technology. Case in point, ancient Greece, with classical Athens as the most extreme example. The athenians were extraordinarily oppressive towards women, slaves and non-citizens, but were certainly very positive towards male homosexuality.

I agree, with your post. But Greece was particular in that they were very advanced in philosophy, politics, they were quite open minded about some areas of the world, and knew more of science than was known two thousand years later in the middle ages. Greece is basically an unusual case, which was as advanced as we are in some areas or even more advanced, but quite backwards in others. 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Speaking of children, according to Sanderson, stormlight suffusing the ecology greatly reduces frequency of infectious diseases on Roshar, which believably explains why people exhibit the so-called "Western European Marriage Pattern", only with many more opportunities for  women than was the case iRL.

This is a very good point I hadn't realized. Part of why women in Europe had little role in politics and world affairs is they were often pregnant, and frequently died in childbirth. Nearly all the famous queens and noblewomen were either barren, unmarried, or uncapable of having more childrenas they were too young when they first fell pregnant. Considering in Roshar women have a much smaller chance of dying in childbirth it makes sense they have a bigger role. 

And I just realized how off topic I went :P.

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1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I agree, with your post. But Greece was particular in that they were very advanced in philosophy, politics, they were quite open minded about some areas of the world, and knew more of science than was known two thousand years later in the middle ages. Greece is basically an unusual case, which was as advanced as we are in some areas or even more advanced, but quite backwards in others. 

Look, I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of why for so long in western culture homosexuality was not tolerated. And Ancient Greece is really not the best example of a tolerant society towards homosexuality as they really only approved it between "youths" and older men so it's a bit squicky to me. But the main reason in western societies that homosexuality wasn't tolerated was because of religion. So if the Vorin church doesn't have a problem with homosexuality then I would doubt that the rest of the Alethi society would have an issue with it. And I for one would greatly enjoy that. This is a fantasy world, it doesn't have to be modern to have modern ideas. Not every fantasy world needs to be riddled with racism, sexism, or homophobia just because they're not "modern," some of us would like it very much if we weren't condemned in by every fantasy religion just because homosexuality was condemned during parts of the middle ages.

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