Arcanist Lupus Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I like this theory. I don't think it's all the way there, but it's on its way. I wouldn't be at all surprised if contradictory oaths were at the core of the breaking. However, the wording of the decoded epigraph is "the secret that broke the Knights Radiant", not "the secret to breaking the Knights Radiant", that implies to me that the secret is a piece of knowledge that, if known to the Knights Radiant, will break them, not a tool for breaking them. (if that makes any sense). Also, the Lightweavers don't take any oaths other than the first, so unless the secret is that the first oath is self-contradictory (which it could be), then I don't think they could be taken out the same way. Of course, we know one order didn't fall... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Which order was it that survived again? That might be a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 We don't know. Some suspect the Skybreakers, seeing how there exists an organization today that bears the same name and patron. The Stonewards are also a candidate, though they don't exactly strike me as an order to even get close to the phrase "great subterfuge at the expense of the others." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Sounds like the advice is to keep the secret of how to destroy the KR secret until the new Orders are formed. They may need to be destroyed. The may also implied that they may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I would think that the ones best suited to "great subterfuge" would be the Lightweavers wouldn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Sounds like the advice is to keep the secret of how to destroy the KR secret until the new Orders are formed. They may need to be destroyed. The may also implied that they may not. Right. The question we're debating is, what is the secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaoTheWyld Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Maybe this is off-topic slightly, but does anyone else wonder who is really influencing Mr T? I am reminded of mistborn and how even writing couldn't be trusted, could Mr T. be being used to believe he must save the world in order to weaken it? He has given himself over to a pretty much unknown magic for his knowledge. Just a thought, the diagram itself could be a subterfuge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikleas Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 Agree with Bao. This is a possibility. Mr T. asked for (and ostensibly received) the "capacity" to save the world. Perhaps what Roshar needs to survive is not a hero but a villain (odium's champion?) to rally against. So perhaps Super genius Mr T., in his infinite wisdom, concluded that it would be better for everyone if Odium won. Then is writing the diagram for the perfect plan to help Odium win, writing it in a way to purposefully mislead his dumb self, and followers, into thinking they are trying to save the world. Instead they will follow the diagram & become the villain that the world incidentally needs (capacity) to wake up and gang up on. It kinda fits with the whole: too dumb=useless / too brilliant=dangerous theme of Mr T.'s interlude. And it would mean that the motive behind this code, behind destroying the KR, is not to stop the desolations but make them succeed (therefore going against the "KR are hastening desolations, that is the secret that brought the recreance" theory). I say that, but I do like the "need to abolish KR to stop/slow desolations, this realization brought the recreance" scenario. I can totally see the Oath pact, heralds & unmade thing being a deal between the shards to do an honorable fight for survival and the rule of Roshar every X years, purposefully sacrificing thousands of lives every desolation. The cycle of life and death is in line with cultivation. Honor would be ok with an honorable agreement if it binds Odium. Odium would be bound but with a chance to win it all if it succeeds at least once, and the regular bloodbaths of the desolations caused by the pact would certainly please him. The easy way is to think Honor (good) vs Odium (evil), but the books illustrate both good side and bad side of honor, as seen as Sezth actions or the sky breakers's philosophy vs the wind runners'. Perhaps Odium used Honor's attributes to lead him to agree to a distasteful pact. The heralds could not deal with the intentionally eternal cycle of horrors and broke. KR found out the truth and broke. All of this oath breaking killing Honor. Or Perhaps the bondsmiths plan was to kill Honor, to stop the desolation cycle, by breaking the KR vows and killing the sprens. A great betrayal indeed for sprens that are splinters of honor. It would be a typical Brandon reversal of what you think is good (the heralds purpose and oath pact) turns out to be the opposite by the end. It also kinda fits with WoB comments about exploring right vs good in the stormlight archives. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xianpoxi Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) I think the the secret was because there is something which helps bring a desolation about them. IIRC the Shin and Taravangian seem to think the return of the Radiants will indicate or cause another desolation. Perhaps they wanted to keep as much power back in Honor so that he could fight on even footing w/ Odium. Like how preservation was 'losing' to ruin when he put more of his power into people than Ruin did. Perhaps some power was locked away from Honor because it was given to others. .. Then again that would not hold after Honor is dead. but there could be something similar... Obviously the Recreance is a big mystery. Kaladin's experience w/ Syl in WoR gives us the pattern of what would be needed for it to happen. He had conflicting oaths. I suspect the Radiants found something that they would best protect people by breaking the Nahel bond. I suspect this was probably necessary because of the Oathbreaking of the Heralds. I think the Herald's broken oath changed circumstances so that the Radiants could not continue as they did. I think they all despaired for their spren but sacrificed themselves and their spren to preserve the world... this attitude seems to break the first Oath that all Radiants have in common. "Life before Death" (lol looks like I should have read more of the thread first. Obviously these are not new ideas) Edited May 5, 2014 by xianpoxi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xianpoxi Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 I would think that the ones best suited to "great subterfuge" would be the Lightweavers wouldn't they? They are well suited to subterfuge, yes... BUT Pattern already confirmed that no bonded Cryptics survived from before. So the Lightweavers did in fact fall. Also, they are not just about lies. they are about Truth and Lies. It is the relationship between the 2. Even though they Cryptics are fascinated by lies, they are not really dishonest. In fact, Shallan's inhibition toward accepting certain Truths was the only thing holding her back from advancing as a Radiant. I don't think Lightweavers could be bad guys so much. I'm looking forward to How Shallan walks the line between the Knights Radiant the and Ghostbloods. I think this will be a challenge to her similar to Kaladin's challenges in WoR. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xianpoxi Posted May 5, 2014 Report Share Posted May 5, 2014 I think this is extremely likely. There was a fairly recent WoB that the Parshendi weren't of Honor, Cultivation or Odium originally. I am betting they were put on Roshar by Adonalsium. They had their planet and some of form of spren. When Honor and Cultivation showed up, they made humans, which eventually led to conflict. I also have this crazy idea that maybe the "Tranquiline Halls" were really a space ship and it crashed on Roshar. Honor and Cultivation favored them because the Shard Holders were originally human and that caused the conflict. However, I have no evidence to support that theory. It just sounds really cool. I think you are on the right track. The Parshendi and spren would be native to Roshar. However I don't think the tranquiline halls was a ship. I'm guessing its a planet. Odium is on another planet too and that would be Damnation while the Tranquiline Halls would be another Planet which people were driven from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakeke Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 One thing I've been wondering: the palindromes in the original number sequence -- was that just a weird coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asejet Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Its definately dark sphere gavilar gave to szeth for safekeeping.wob hint that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Its definately dark sphere gavilar gave to szeth for safekeeping.wob hint that. Sorry, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asejet Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 WoB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Its definately dark sphere gavilar gave to szeth for safekeeping.wob hint that. WoB hint the black sphere is what destroyed the Radiants? I haven't seen this. Does Vargo even know Szeth has it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asejet Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 No, he don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted May 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 And this WoB you keep referring to... care to share with us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 I'd be interested in it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asejet Posted May 13, 2014 Report Share Posted May 13, 2014 Hey sorry. I must hallucinated that bit. Btw ,what do u think that black sphere was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musica Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Do you think the dark sphere could contain an Odiumspren? Eshonai did say to Adolin-as-Dalinar that Gavilar should not have told them of his plans to bring back the Parshendi Gods, and we know the Parshendi capture the Spren they want to Bond in spheres... So, could that sphere contain one of Odium's Spren? What I don't get is why Gavilar would want to do something like that. We know from Shallan that Amaram, whom we know to have worked with Gavilar on the matter, wants to bring back the Voidbringers- so I guess that was Gavilar's goal, too? But then why would the Stormfather keep sending him visions? Why even choose him in the first place? Why choose Dalinar later on? Storm it. When do we get the next book already???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 What I don't get is why Gavilar would want to do something like that. We know from Shallan that Amaram, whom we know to have worked with Gavilar on the matter, wants to bring back the Voidbringers- so I guess that was Gavilar's goal, too? But then why would the Stormfather keep sending him visions? Why even choose him in the first place? Why choose Dalinar later on? The Stormfather has no choice in who he gives visions to, apparently. As for Gavilar, Eshonai says that he bragged to the Parshendi on the night of his assassination that he was going to bring back their gods, so he probably did want to bring about a Desolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 The Stormfather has no choice in who he gives visions to, apparently. As for Gavilar, Eshonai says that he bragged to the Parshendi on the night of his assassination that he was going to bring back their gods, so he probably did want to bring about a Desolation. Or maybe he was just a clueless fool who thought to uncover some real magic (surgebinding), but didn't think of the consequences, hence a Desolation... I am starting to wonder as to how "great" Galivar really was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantlee Posted September 14, 2014 Report Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) And this WoB you keep referring to... care to share with us? Words of Brandon, aka canon hints/answers Brandon Sanderson has given in interviews or book signings. You can find a compilation of them here, but warning - if you haven't read all of the cosmere books, they're spoileriffic: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/ Edited September 14, 2014 by dantlee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vibronicgoose Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 This may have been covered. But I don't have time to read this entire thread and I want to post this before I forget. Sorry if it has been said. I think it is a very interesting choice of the word "hold" when referring to the secret, rather than the more commonly used 'keep' in this context. It strikes me as a very similar odd wording such as the clue at the start of FE: The use of 'on' his arms instead of the more contextually common 'in' his arms. So it does seem that a physical object could be implied here. Sorry for this terrible post. I will edit it to flesh it out more when i have time later. Just didn't want to forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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