Chapter 84 (Decoded) Epigraph Message

[Argent]

That's... not at all supported. Anywhere.

[RShara]

Also Rayse is described as a rather despicable person who wanted to hold to the piece of ''God's own divine hatred."  Doubt he wants to hold anything back

[xbauks]

What if the Ancient of Stones is Rayse, holding back Odium? The letter reply says rayse deliberately took up Odium.

 

That is one way to look at it. But first, Rayse is described as a despicable person. In addition to this, he has been the holder of Odium longer than either Ati or Leras and both of their personalities were severely warped by their shards. So it wouldn't make sense, from the knowledge we have so far, if Rayse was the Ancient of Stones.

[darkanimereal1]

I don't think will be very helpful in figuring out anything more, but what if this "secret" is one of the things that the Vorin church attempted to hide following the Hierocracy? Or, perhaps, maybe it had something to do with the Hierocracy even happening. This could also highly depend on how big of a gap there was between the Recreance and the Hierocracy.

[Aminar]

The Ancient of Stones strikes me as more related to Roshar's association with Stones.  It seems to me that Odium came to Roshar before Honor and Cultivation, at which point he created and enslaved the listeners/Parshendi.  Later on Honor and Cultivation came, making the planet into what we see today.  I mean Roshar's animals do seem to be created by someone who likes to see things suffer, so Rayse came to Roshar and anthilled up the place, making it a harsh terrible place.  At least that seems plausible to me.

[Shadow Guardian]

Rayse is heavily implied to have a personality very in line with Odium, so unlike Ati, who's personality was warped by the holding Ruin, Rayse's personality already fit, making him far more dangerous.

 

Quote from The Letter:

" Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met. He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited. One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say. In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know thatAona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse. "
 

My inclination is also that The Ancient of Stones is Taln, and somehow preventing the impending desolation rested on his will for the past 4.5K years. What strikes me as odd is that prior to this 4.5 year break, we have no real indications of what held back the desolations, if anything. If we assume nothing has changed, then the logical conclusion would be, as several people have mentioned, that it came when the weakest or perhaps a few of the weakest of the heralds broke under the torture. However, I'm inclined to think that there was something different this time. In the prelude, Jezrien mentions "There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations." And if my memory serves, there has been WoB that there was something different that time, due to a question about how that battle had been one of the worst. What changed, or what is different, I couldn't say, but I think it's not unreasonable to believe that whatever secret Mr. T holds is may be the knowledge of 'what' is different and how that relates to why the Knights Radiant had to abandon their oaths. We have several other indicators that this Desolation is somehow different from the previous ones, so I think it's very possible that whatever changed is the part that we're missing in explaining the recreance, among other things.

[marianmi]

Well, maybe that time, even if Odium was strong, the humans were far far more stronger.

Instead of the heralds coming to a humanity that did not even know bronze working, maybe that time the radiants had maintained the humans ready.

Thus, Odium decided on a different course of battle.

Maybe until then, parshendi were never slaves.

[Tempus]

The Ancient of Stones is clearly Taln. Supporting points: Taln is associated with the ninth essence (Stone). His moniker is Stonesinew. He was of the order of the Stone Wardens. Mr. T has not demonstrated any knowledge of the Shards, or that they have holders, so it's highly unlikely he is referring to them. At the beginning of Way of Kings, Taln was left as the sole holder of the Oathpact by the other Heralds - the timeline given in the book by Church doctrine is not-so-coincidentally four millennia. We know that Taln did not used to be mad, and used to 'return' before each Desolation to warn and to give instruction. He says so himself. The quote implies that the Ancient of Stones has gone mad (cracked). This is open-closed, the Ancient of Stones is Taln, the evidence is really kind of overwhelming.

 

There are other things, though.

 

We know the Knights Radiant were founded after a large number of Desolations had already occurred. We have both the word of the Church, the word of Taln, and the WoK prologue to support this. Ergo, the KR can not be the cause of the desolations.

 

We know that the Recreance was approximately at the time that the desolations stopped occurring. 

 

We know that the Bondsmiths had some sort of plan, involving bondsmithy bonding things, to end the desolations. We also know the bondsmiths were the 'guardians' of the Nahel bond. Suggestive.

 

We know that around the time the desolations stopped, the Parshendi were all turned into Parshmen, which is not Dullform, but something lower still. We do not know how, but considering the bondsmith bit, and the fact that the Parshendi also bond to spren to control their forms, and the fact that the Recreance involved all the Knights Radiant breaking their bonds with the spren... Suggestive.

 

We don't know when Honor was shattered. It should have been before the founding of the KR, as spren are splinters/shards of Honor and are required to have existed for the KR to bond to.

 

We don't know when, or how Odium was bound, or why Odium has a specific spren, voidspren. Spren are splinters/shards of Honor, and we know Odium is not shattered. Well, Brandon has been a bit muddled about Spren - he's said before they are in fact all splinters from 'the shattered one', but he's also said they are a combination of Honor and Cultivation. Not certain how Odium spren exist at all, either way you look at it.

 

And lastly, we know that the voidspren started appearing in the books around the time we first saw surgebinding, and increased in numbers as we saw more surgebinders.

 

So, what I'm trying to build this all up to is, I think it's likely that the reason Odium was bound, the reason Parshendi lost their spren bonds and became Parshmen, the reason the Knights Radiant underwent the Recreance, and the reason the desolations stopped for a time are all related to the mysterious bondsmith plan in someway, which is in turn likely to be related to the Oathpact of the Heralds in someway (upheld exclusively by Taln at this point).

 

The Parshendi mentioned explicitly that the stone would bring back their gods, and that their gods were the cause of the stormform in the past (and thus, the everstorm and the desolations). So it's quite probable that the stone is indeed some artifact related to the bonding of spren/voidspren. It's also likely that there is a key piece of information that goes along with the stone in some way that we are unaware of at this time, possibly involving the binding of Odium.

 

If anyone else can fit these pieces a different way, or has other pieces that might be significant, I'd be interested to hear it.

[xbauks]

Tempus: You make very good points. These is some misinformation in there though. Brandon has been fairly clear about spren. The normal spren are some combination of Honour and Cultivation. The voidspren are likely from Odium (not sure if there is hard evidence for this). Spren are splinters. Splinters can be made voluntarily by the shard. It is not necessary for a shard to be splintered (see the coppermind page for splinters).

Regarding the bondsmith: the epigraphs mention a particular bondsmith resolving to defeat the voidbringers the next day. But before that he had to do something else. This puts him either (depending on your interpretation) right before the desolation ended or right before the recreance. He can't be in both times. Seeing as the desolation ended 4.5 thousand years ago and the Recreance happened long after, the binding of Odium and the Recreance cannot both be attributed to that person.

[Tempus]

I looked up quotes regarding spren in the theoryland database, and there was conflicting information from Brandon. Thus my confusion.

 

As for the bondsmith thing, the individual might have passed away, but I was referring to the action taken. The action taken by the bondsmiths may have ended the desolation, and the nature of that action may have later caused the recreance.

[Argent]

Far too many things we don't know about the events that led to the rise and fall of the Silver Kingdoms... Speculating about them might be a fruitless effort =\

[Aminar]

Wasn't it said at one point by Brandon that Odium has been holding back on the desolation though? I don't see why Taln would be holding the desolation back. It doesn't seem to fit with the purpose of the heralds. But I'm sure this particular one is worded to mislead. It just seems wrong that previous desolations were centuries apart while Taln on his own held for 4500 years. We know he's stubborn, but he doesn't seem to have given up and I doubt he finally lost hia sanity now, it's more likely it's been gone for a good long while.

[EvilNuff]

Far too many things we don't know about the events that led to the rise and fall of the Silver Kingdoms... Speculating about them might be a fruitless effort =\

 

Nooo, what else will we do until book 3 is out if not speculate!

[Aminar]

Nooo, what else will we do until book 3 is out if not speculate!

Speculate with evidence. Search for itty bitty textual clues. Read other books. He has two coming out between. Not to mention a new Dresden Book and several others.

[Tempus]

It's not clear that the Ancient of Stones was holding back the desolations, only that his 'cracking' is related to their return. It could be he was guarding something. It could be the oathpact is somehow involved and he required sanity to uphold it. It could be that his presence deterred Odium simply because Odium believes he could not win if a Herald was against him, and so Odium was playing the long game voluntarily to eliminate him, or even actively trying to make him go mad.

 

As for itty bitty textual clues, I believe discussing the finer points of a series of three words in an epigraph not part of the core plot could qualify as both evidence and a clue for discussion.

 

Oh look, word of Brandon:

 

 

 

Q: Is a Desolation caused when a Herald breaks under torture?
A: This person is asking the right kinds of questions. (It’s since been confirmed from another Q&A that when the Heralds leave the place of torture a Desolation occurs. Taln is STRONG.)

Edited March 15, 2014 by Tempus

[Observer]

Nice work Tempus!

I don't have much else to add, other than to point out that the Shin have their own stone-related gods that they rely on to warn them of desolations. It's what got Szeth named Truthless IIRC.

[Argent]

Where did that WoB come from? It's new to me.

[Tempus]

The very recent addition to the WoB thread here from the Seattle Signing. It was added after my post, which is why the post has been edited! I would link you to it, but I see you already found it and replied.

[Vasher*]

When I saw this message, the 3 epigraph's quoting WoR came to mind"

 

 

 

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced; namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest

 

See "wicked thing of eminence"?The next two epigraphs (which also follows the page numbers of the first) gives a overview of the Recreance which seems to flow from this first discovery, and led to the oaths being forsworn. 

[rjl]

A few points I feel I should add. I'm not going to draw conclusions here just raise some things for discussion on this topic.

Jasnah says that the spren return when a desolation is coming. This certainly fits with their attitude, they knew it was coming, they didn't cause it by returning.

The visions sent to Dalinar by Honour tell him that a desolation is coming and he must refound the knights radiant to have a chance.

Nalan killing surgebinders, well he's insane, all the heralds are, I think he's got the link backwards, either that or there's something far more complex going on there.

In Taln's interlude it ends by him asking how long it's been and then saying it's been too long, he's come too late, this 4.5k years gap is bad not good per what Taln thinks, relevance?

Back of book 1 said that the enemy considered a new strategy of leaving men alone to weaken themselves (remember Brandon wrote the blurb).

Mr T has good intentions but I think he's half mad and his extreme intelligence got away from him, imagine this line of thought: "I have capacity to save the world therefore I must rule the world to save it, the radiants would be a strong competing power therefore I may have to get rid of them".

Brandon has said a few times that he likes to write about true heroes, not anti-heroes , if Mr T saves the works that would conflict with Brandon's style.

I think Mr T is ultimately going to be a key villain of the piece, not a hero.

[Vestis Etoris Prime Targ]

In terms of KR causing desolations, I'm inclined to side with Nalan(if Darkness is indeed Nalan). As a Herald (former Herald??) he has seen many cycles of desolations and has been to both Damnation/Braize and Roshar. It makes little sense that after all this experience he would confuse correlation with causation. More likely that he knows something we (along with the new KR) don't. 

 

I believe (and this might be far-fetched) that the heralds could be causing a reversed TLR scenario. 

 

In Mistborn, TLR was burning up all the Atium, preventing Ruin from gaining a physical form. Here the KRs bonding spren might be doing the opposite, i.e. weakening Honor. More KR leads to a weaker Honor. This is the secret which caused them to break up and renegade on their bonded spren. 

 

The reason behind this (again just a theory) is that each spren is a splinter of a shard (Honor/ Cultivation). With the KR bonding the spren individually and giving them the power to exist in the physical realm, Honor / Cultivation remain splintered. Each of the splinters grows, gains a personality/ individuality and sees itself as separate from the whole. Hence the existence of the KR creates an intent within the splinters to remain splintered, instead of joining together to recreate the shard. The KR are inadvertently undermining the Heralds and upholding the work of Odium.    

[RShara]

Except Investiture is never used up-it's just recycled.  So when you use it, it returns to the "source" and is available to be used again.

 

TLR wasn't burning up atium, he was hording it to keep it safe.  At the end of HoA they burn up all the atium because Ruin found the hoard and they needed to get rid of it fast.  Once it's used, it returns to the "source" to regrow again in the Pits.

 

Also, the amount of Stormlight that one person uses seems to be a miniscule amount compared to the masses of Investiture running around on Roshar.

 

Each bondable spren already has consciousness in Shadesmar.  It's only when they cross over to the Physical realm that they need the Nahel bond.  They can cross over anyway and exist here, but they'd just be mindless.

 

FYI, a spren IS a tiny tiny splinter of a shard   Syl confirms it, and I think Brandon does too.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong that somehow the spren bonding is helping Odium in some way, but I'm not sure that the points you bring up support that theory.

[Vestis Etoris Prime Targ]

I understand that investiture is recycled. So any stormlight which is used goes back into the system in one form or another. 

 

My theory is more about the Spren themselves. All sprens are splinters of a shard. Sprens like Syl are tiny. Sprens like the Stormfather are bigger. Once they are bonded to a KR along with the oaths, each gains a substantial identity. Their intent becomes individual.

 

If I were to, let us say, remake a shard I would need someone to hold all its splinters together and make them see themselves as parts of a whole. For example in the creation of Harmony, Preservation and Ruin begin to see themselves as parts of a bigger shard called Harmony. In this case one may argue that Preservation and Ruin were in fact pieces (splinters??) of a bigger entity called Harmony.

 

If the KR bond with the spren restricts them to an individual identity (example "I am Syl"), their intent to recreate the bigger shard gets weaker. On a larger scale think in terms of Adonalsium. It used to be a single entity. Once it was divided into 16 shards taken up by 16 separate individuals, their intent for recreating Adonalsium weakened. Now the only way Adonalsium (or at least a new unified entity made up of the 16 shards) can be recreated, is if all the shard holders give up their shards and they are taken up by one holder (might not even be human, since I assume the original Adonalsium wasn't held by a human).

 

So the presence of the KR could be perpetuating the splintering of Honor/Cultivation.       

[rjl]

Would Honour be sending bad advice via the visions?

[RShara]

But the spren have identity in the Cognitive Realm already.  Cities, governments and so forth.  How would that affect the splintering/re-uniting?