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Chapter 84 (Decoded) Epigraph Message


Argent

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For some reason I think the secret of the Recreance is attached to the epigraph of chapter 83. To quote:

 

 

I can't explain why I think these two are tied together, but whatever this Ancient of Stone is, he's been apparently holding together the world at least since the Heralds broke their Oaths. Is he Taln? If so, could the Recreance have been a massive realization by the Radiants that the Heralds broke the very first Oath themselves? They put destination before the journey, and the whole world could suffer for it.

 

Tangent: anyone else think it odd that Jezerin is acknowledged as the leader of the Heralds, but Dalinar is a Bondsmith and is going to lead the Radiants? What, I wonder, did the Herald who inspired the Bondsmiths teach pre-Desolation?

 

I'm inclined to believe that the Ancient of Stones is Taln. He is called Talanel'Elin Stonesinew. He was being tortured for over 4 millenia. 

 

Speculation: IF Taln is the Ancient of Stones, and the Desolations were held back by his will alone, did that mean that the weakest of the Heralds decided when the next Desolation would come?

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I'm inclined to believe that the Ancient of Stones is Taln. He is called Talanel'Elin Stonesinew. He was being tortured for over 4 millenia. 

 

Speculation: IF Taln is the Ancient of Stones, and the Desolations were held back by his will alone, did that mean that the weakest of the Heralds decided when the next Desolation would come?

 

Or maybe having ten heralds split the torture 10 ways, and the heralds had a procedure for when to accept that a desolation was inevitable, and to stop fighting it and re-appear?  say, anytime 3 heralds have broken, the desolation is inevitable?

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Or maybe having ten heralds split the torture 10 ways, and the heralds had a procedure for when to accept that a desolation was inevitable, and to stop fighting it and re-appear?  say, anytime 3 heralds have broken, the desolation is inevitable?

 

Completely possible. It could even be that the last one to give in would decide when the Desolation would happen. 

 

Going back to the Chapter 83 Epigraph, the way it is phrased makes it sound like going over 4 millenia without a Desolation is unusual. 

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The spren are splinters, and the Heralds share in the power of the shards.  What if the Nahel bond between spren and Knight drains power from the Herald?  Eventually drain becomes so big that the Heralds can't withstand the torture anymore.

 

I'm groping, but it seems that the Nahel bond is linked to bringing on the desolations.  If the Heralds learned that they could keep Odium imprisoned longer by severing their bonds, would that be enough to cause the recreance?

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The spren are splinters, and the Heralds share in the power of the shards.  What if the Nahel bond between spren and Knight drains power from the Herald?  Eventually drain becomes so big that the Heralds can't withstand the torture anymore.

 

This seems highly unlikely. Spren are a collaboration between Honour and Cultivation from what we've been told so far. Honourblades seem to be exclusively Honour's investiture. Not much to connect the two. So this seems unlikely.

 

 

 

I'm groping, but it seems that the Nahel bond is linked to bringing on the desolations.  If the Heralds learned that they could keep Odium imprisoned longer by severing their bonds, would that be enough to cause the recreance?

 

Chapter 83 epigraph contradicts with this very strongly. 

 

 

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

 
—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1

 

Mr. T makes it sound like the spren forming Nahel bonds is a response to the incoming Desolation rather than a trigger. 

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Why was this epigraph encoded?  On a meta level, of course, it was to give us something to do.  But Brandon doesn't put anything in the books for purely meta reasons.

 

If this message was encoded (even more so than the rest of the Diagram), then genius!Mr. T must have wanted it to be kept a secret.  But the entire Diagram is already a secret.  So why does this bit need extra secrecy?

 

I am not sure he wanted to keep it a secret - though that's certainly possible. I figured that, for some reason, writing in this way felt more efficient and not really hindering to his beefed up mind. Maybe because of the constraints on the amount of writing material he had access to?

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At first glance of the decoded message my immediate way of reading it would be like an encrypted telegram would be written by an agent to his headquarters. An intentionally vague situation update....something like:

 

Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. <stop> You may need it to destroy the new Orders when they return. <end message>

 

So the way I read it....he possesses the secret (which would likely be information in that context) and he is letting others in his order know he has it. Cryptography necessitates a terse message (especially when said cryptographer is actually a talented author pretending to write as someone who is exceedingly intelligent). 

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I'm inclined to believe that the Ancient of Stones is Taln. He is called Talanel'Elin Stonesinew. He was being tortured for over 4 millenia.

Speculation: IF Taln is the Ancient of Stones, and the Desolations were held back by his will alone, did that mean that the weakest of the Heralds decided when the next Desolation would come?

I always assumed that was Odium. He triggers the desolation so far as I know, and him not lashing out sooner is surprising to say the least.
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I am not sure he wanted to keep it a secret - though that's certainly possible. I figured that, for some reason, writing in this way felt more efficient and not really hindering to his beefed up mind. Maybe because of the constraints on the amount of writing material he had access to?

 

The entire Diagram was in his own personal language.  The rest of the Diagram was translated, so this would be as well.

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I always assumed that was Odium. He triggers the desolation so far as I know, and him not lashing out sooner is surprising to say the least.

 

 

 

It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

This makes me think it could be either Taln or Odium depending on how you look at the situation.

 

 

 

The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack 

 

But this makes me think it's Taln. It mentions the Ancient of Stone cracking. The only way Odium fits for me is if he were trying to hold back the Final Desolation. That just doesn't seem like Odium though. 

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I'm sure there are people on Roshar that believe that the strength of Odium's forces in a Desolation will increase for every Surgebinder on the planet.

I'm certain that this motivates Darkness, from his words in Lift's interlude.

It remains to be seen whether they are correct or not.

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We have to remember that multiple Desolations happened before the Nahel bonds, as they were modeled after the Heralds. So I don't see how the KR could cause a Desolations. The most they could have done is to help it come sooner, but it seems from Mr. T's epigraph that it was dependent on the Heralds.  

 

I am still working on a theory but I think the Secret he holds has to do with the nature of Spern.

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You guys are doing the work of the Almighty... seriously!

So obviously Mr. T is fairly certain that the KR Order will return. Judging by the wording of that epigraph it sounds like he was out to destroy the KR if they return because they'd interfere with his plan. Meaning that he's of the KR = Mankind's enemy group.

I feel like I'm grasping at straws here since it's rather vague...

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I was wondering, whether Mr. T knows what his brilliant self has written there or not. Obviously his assistants just have written down the encoded passage.

 

And the secret, could it just be

 

"One is almost certaily a traitor to the others"?

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What if the secret is that be opening themselves to the spren they open themselves to Odium now that Honor is dead?

 

Think about it, Honor was still alive during the other desolations, he would have been able to exert a modicum of control over the Radiants to stop them from being taken over like the Parshendi. Perhaps without him, they have no shield to Odium except their own will?

 

This might actually explain what Syl meant when she said to Kaladin that he is not supposed to be like this. Perhaps it takes far more strength of will to resist it now and if thats the case, then surgebinding could actually become a real problem.

 

The Stormform Parshendi are nothing to what a truly out of control surgebinder could do. We've seen what Szeth could do, if there were hundreds of him being controlled by Odium...

 

 

It might actually explain the Recreance to an extent if this is actually the case; because if their spren had been infected by Odium then the Radiants could not risk releasing them, so perhaps they intentionally locked them into their shardblade form to stop them from being able to do the same again with a new surgebinder.

 

The spren within shadesmar might not even realise the significance and decided it was mankinds betrayal rather than the weakened state it places both man and spren in when they are bound.

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What if the secret is that be opening themselves to the spren they open themselves to Odium now that Honor is dead?

 

Think about it, Honor was still alive during the other desolations, he would have been able to exert a modicum of control over the Radiants to stop them from being taken over like the Parshendi. Perhaps without him, they have no shield to Odium except their own will?

 

This might actually explain what Syl meant when she said to Kaladin that he is not supposed to be like this. Perhaps it takes far more strength of will to resist it now and if thats the case, then surgebinding could actually become a real problem.

 

The Stormform Parshendi are nothing to what a truly out of control surgebinder could do. We've seen what Szeth could do, if there were hundreds of him being controlled by Odium...

 

 

It might actually explain the Recreance to an extent if this is actually the case; because if their spren had been infected by Odium then the Radiants could not risk releasing them, so perhaps they intentionally locked them into their shardblade form to stop them from being able to do the same again with a new surgebinder.

 

The spren within shadesmar might not even realise the significance and decided it was mankinds betrayal rather than the weakened state it places both man and spren in when they are bound.

The Oaths prevent Surgbinders from going out of control. If the spren could warp a Surgbinder into acting with power against his oaths how did breaking the Oaths kill those spren? doesn't add up... 

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 the secret that broke the Knights Radiant

 

My two cents: it doesn't say the secret that caused the knights to abandon their oaths en masse. It seems to me that there are indications that the knights had broken/were breaking long before the events at Feverstone Keep.

 

 

 

 

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The Desolations happened before the Nahel bond existed and yet after the Recreance without the bond there was a much larger gap between the Desolations.  Given this, my speculation is something with the Nahel bond & the KR increased the frequency and the Recreance was an attempt on the parts of the KR to slow down/stop the Desolations.  I would even go so far as to suggest that possibly their spren agreed to "mass suicide" in an attempt to help.  Perhaps this was tied in to an attempt to "cripple" the listeners into only dull & mate form so they could no longer transform into Voidbringers and thus delay/stop the Desolations.

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Here is one possible secret that I could imagine leading to the KRs abandoning their oaths.

 

The KRs are modeled after the Heralds; what if they share in their fate?  So once a KR dies, it is sent to Odium for torture.

 

If the KRs knew that, and that the Heralds were no longer willing to bear that burden as well, I could see them giving up.

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