Chapter 84 (Decoded) Epigraph Message

[RShara]

The important thing in my mind is that whatever the secret is, it made the KR willing to kill their spren partners--pretty much their best friends in a lot of cases.  That says to me that whatever it is involves a secret the spren themselves have.  Like, maybe the spren betrayed the KR and made them want to sever all ties with their "friends," up to and including killing off masses of them.

[Moogle]

But if it's a secret that's bad enough to destroy the Knights Radiant (twice over) he's got to have some sort of proof, otherwise what's to stop the new Radiants from ignoring him?

 

The proof could easily be just the Radiants seeing the reactions of their spren.

 

Imagine the secret is... "Surgebinders are responsible for the Desolations coming." That's such a crazy statement (which I believe could be true) that Surgebinders would be sure to ask their spren if it was true. Most spren tend to be horrible liars (Pattern) or else refuse to lie (Syl). So... I don't think there has to be any proof. A single sentence sounds like it could easily destroy the Radiants.

[Xavien]

That says to me that whatever it is involves a secret the spren themselves have.

Or what the spren represent (see above theory) but also it's a symbiotic relationship for the spren, the KR get powers and the spren get consciousness and the ability to affect the physical realm. Maybe the spren are getting something else from the relationship, which would be why Mr T would want to avoid having the KR reform.

[xbauks]

I think it may be about what happens after the Mr. T has saved the world. Once the danger is gone what do the Orders do? They are humans with immense power but without any common foe to bind them. Breaking them may be the only way to stop the infighting and power struggles that would result in their being.

EDIT: I really like Honor being behind the Desolations. What if the Desolations is part of the means that Honor bound Odium to Roshar? It could even be that the Voidbringers are actually the rightful people of Roshar and the humans are the invaders, the "wrong doers" if you think of it.

The Stormfather does refer to the Parshendi as the ancient ones. So it's very possible that they are native to the land. Not to mention humans are VERY different from the natural flora and fauna of Roshar.

Humans don't really need to be in the wrong though. They might just be refugees as implied in their theology.

[Veil]

EDIT: I really like Honor being behind the Desolations. What if the Desolations is part of the means that Honor bound Odium to Roshar? It could even be that the Voidbringers are actually the rightful people of Roshar and the humans are the invaders, the "wrong doers" if you think of it. 

 

I do like the sound of that. I get the impression that we're wrong with an awful lot of our assumptions. That's just how Sanderson works. "Oh, you know that totally innocuous thing you've been seeing all along? Yeah, that's baaaaaad. And that other thing, the ominous thing? The only thing that can possibly save your life. :)" (Sorry, anyone else getting Mistborn flashbacks?)

 

The important thing in my mind is that whatever the secret is, it made the KR willing to kill their spren partners--pretty much their best friends in a lot of cases.  That says to me that whatever it is involves a secret the spren themselves have.  Like, maybe the spren betrayed the KR and made them want to sever all ties with their "friends," up to and including killing off masses of them.

 

Or it just made it impossible for the Radiants to not kill their friends. It's not like Kaladin was trying to hurt Syl in this book.

 

Of course, in that case we'd need more imformation on the other Orders' Ideals and what it takes to kill a bonded spren. But say a Bondsmith found out the Heralds had abandoned Taln, and he told the other Radiants in hopes of uniting them against a looming threat. But instead it caused the Stonewards to rebel against the other Orders (thus the Bondsmiths indirectly broke their vow of uniting people instead of dividing.)

 

Not saying that's what happened, but the Radiants' betrayals might not (all) have been intentional.

[shinintendo]

The important thing in my mind is that whatever the secret is, it made the KR willing to kill their spren partners--pretty much their best friends in a lot of cases.  That says to me that whatever it is involves a secret the spren themselves have.  Like, maybe the spren betrayed the KR and made them want to sever all ties with their "friends," up to and including killing off masses of them.

I feel they did it out of duty, there was no other way but to break the bond. or the unlikely scenario someone/something made them do it(or brain washed them).

The spren are indeed like family you don't kill in such a way(torturous) one of your own, unless you must.

I believe there is a deep secret, something unholy and dangerous to the world if the orders will return. Mr.T keep the solution safe, tucked out deep in his mind.

[Aminar]

I do like the sound of that. I get the impression that we're wrong with an awful lot of our assumptions. That's just how Sanderson works. "Oh, you know that totally innocuous thing you've been seeing all along? Yeah, that's baaaaaad. And that other thing, the ominous thing? The only thing that can possibly save your life. :)" (Sorry, anyone else getting Mistborn flashbacks?)

 

 

Or it just made it impossible for the Radiants to not kill their friends. It's not like Kaladin was trying to hurt Syl in this book.

 

Of course, in that case we'd need more imformation on the other Orders' Ideals and what it takes to kill a bonded spren. But say a Bondsmith found out the Heralds had abandoned Taln, and he told the other Radiants in hopes of uniting them against a looming threat. But instead it caused the Stonewards to rebel against the other Orders (thus the Bondsmiths indirectly broke their vow of uniting people instead of dividing.)

 

Not saying that's what happened, but the Radiants' betrayals might not (all) have been intentional.

 

It really looked intentional in Dalinar's flashback, and the Spren see it as a betrayal, which implies it was on purpose to some extent.  beyond that, no idea.

 

As for the Parshendi being their first.  I have 100% always assumed that the Humans colonized the planet from somewhere else.  It's bound into their theology, and makes a whole lot of sense.  It's always had a significant Pern vibe in that sense.(And I like it.)

[Darmad]

Somehow I think the secret ties into the Stormfather's insistence that the Knights Radiant always kill their spren.

 

Why are the "dead" spren still swords?  The living ones we have seen are only a weapon when needed by their bondmate.

[Xavien]

@Moogle - Do we know the order of events between Desolations begin, Oathpact, Heralds and the first Nahel bond? If Surgebinders cause Desolations that means the order would be something like 'Heralds created -> first Nahel Bond -> Oathpact/Desolations begin' but I was under the impression it went 'Oathpact/Heralds -> Desolations begin -> Nahel bond'  

[RShara]

I feel they did it out of duty, there was no other way but to break the bond. or the unlikely scenario someone/something made them do it(or brain washed them).

The spren are indeed like family you don't kill in such a way(torturous) one of your own, unless you must.

I believe there is a deep secret, something unholy and dangerous to the world if the orders will return. Mr.T keep the solution safe, tucked out deep in his mind.

 

Yeah...I wonder if Nalan is right, and surgebinding DOES cause the Desolations?  Preventing one would certainly be something the KR would be willing to sacrifice their spren for.

 

Although, in the vision of the Recreance, they sort of just walked away from their Shards, like they didn't care any more, and didn't want to be involved, rather than angry or frightened.  Very strange.

 

 

 

It really looked intentional in Dalinar's flashback, and the Spren see it as a betrayal, which implies it was on purpose to some extent.  beyond that, no idea.

 

As for the Parshendi being their first.  I have 100% always assumed that the Humans colonized the planet from somewhere else.  It's bound into their theology, and makes a whole lot of sense.  It's always had a significant Pern vibe in that sense.(And I like it.)

I figured the Tranquiline Halls were the original human world (Yolen?) and Roshar is where some of them fled.

[Moogle]

Why are the "dead" spren still swords?  The living ones we have seen are only a weapon when needed by their bondmate.

 

As per Dalinar's vision in TWOK, this is probably because the Radiants summoned them as swords and then broke their oaths, throwing away their spren.

[RShara]

Somehow I think the secret ties into the Stormfather's insistence that the Knights Radiant always kill their spren.

 

Why are the "dead" spren still swords?  The living ones we have seen are only a weapon when needed by their bondmate.

 

WoB

 

Q: Why were all the shardblades swords when they can take on any weapon form they want? Would they all revert to swords when they die?

A: When they die they'd revert to the basic form which was a sword since they were patterned after honorblades

[Harakeke]

Fantastic!

[Luke.spence]

Hmmm now I'm rethinking all my Recreance beliefs/theories to see how they line up with this.

 

Edit: great, now I can't open spoiler tags for like the third time this week

Edited March 12, 2014 by Luke.spence

[ranstang94]

two minor passages are standing out to me as important here.

 

1) Hoid talking to Shallan, this is paraphrased so if someone else wants to find the passage for the exact wording... I would but I'm an audiobook reader... 

"have you ever wondered where the word Axhound came from? Ax that is easy you use it for chopping wood, but what is a hound. A world of secrets hiding in a single word."

 

2) was in one of the chapter titles, it talked about how the war could be won because of something the Bondsmiths could do. 

maybe the bondsmiths bound something into the sphere and it required surgebinding to never happen again for it to work...  

[sneeker1988]

I think I recall a line from Syl mentioning what the bond does to humans and spren. She mentions something about losing something and gaining something. I wonder if what happens when a spren starts to bond that they release the wild side of themselves, creating the voidspren.

[shinintendo]

 

 

 

Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new Orders when they return.

 

Mr.T will probably try to act on it in the future. The KR are back in small numbers. How long (which book) do you think he will act on it? till they reform all the orders?till some orders will get out of line? there were many KR back than, How many do you think there will be this time, the same?

Edited March 12, 2014 by shinintendo

[xekrar]

Delurking for a moment to express how I’m always impressed by the things this community figures out.

I'll try to contribute with something I noticed: the key to the code epigraph (itself another Diagram epigraph, reproduced below), suggests that it may not be the desolation itself brought by Surgebinding (As Nalan and some others think). Rather, it’s the effect of Taln breaking after millennia of torture.

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 1

(Small note, The Desolation is a bit oddly personified in this quote.)

Combined with some passing mentions in the Second Letter (“millennia have passed without Rayse taking the life of another of the sixteen”, “an equilibrium reached”), the timeframe suggests that in the present state of Roshar (Honor is dead/broken, no Surgebinders), Odium remains impotent in some way. Exact dates are, to my knowledge, still fuzzy.

So it certainly seems possible that Surgebinders can do something (Heal something broken? absorb Voidlight from the sphere? No idea. Note this may also suggest a reason Hoid, who is presumably aware of certain things, is encouraging refounding of the Radiants) to assist/free Odium, and allow him to rampage again through the Cosmere (or possibly also be killed for good?). If the Knights Radiant eventually realized/were told this, that could definitely be something that leads to the Recreance (would also be very anti-journey-before-destination). Or it could be the KR did mistakenly believe they were causing Desolations (being the “fools” of the epigraph) or were actually causing desolations, though that’s a bit less intriguing (and less consistent with the Diagram, so this is predicated upon how much you trust/interpret that). The Herald/Honorblade/Oathpact (all but Taln breaks their oaths) and Radiant/Sprenblade/Recreance (all but 1 order break their oaths, though I think it's not the Stonewards) parallels are also interesting to ponder in this respect.

Edited March 12, 2014 by xekrar

[Argent]

If you can't open the spoiler tags, by the way, you can hit the

button on the first post and read what's inside them in the reply window - just don't post the (entire) quite if you decide to reply.

[Atherol]

The first thing the quote evoked for me was this other quote from the Diagram

 

"You must be king. Of Everything"

 

 

T. is unifying  the world  "He had taken the first major step toward unifying the world"

 

 The KR will somehow hindered him in his plan, his only option will be to get rid  of them, He asked for the capacity to save the world, he is convinced that he is the only one that will prevent the Desolation, whether he is right or not..

"If he was going to trust one thing to believe in, it would be himself and the raw genius of a human mind unfettered"

 

it doesn't mean there are no one that could also have that capacity, like the KR, 

 

 

I don't think the Radiants are causing the Desolations, it's said somewhere that the spren bonded with humans after the  exemple of the Heralds, the first Desolation could not have Radiants,so it can't have a link.

 

 

 

 

[tigvsben]

While it's entirely possible (and very Sandersonian) that the KR are in some way tied to the desolation, I don't think you need to make this assumption to explain Mr. T's contingency planning regarding them. His entire mission is to follow the Diagram to save the world at all costs, while the fundamental code of the KR is to stick to the honorable path regardless of the outcome. While they could make useful tools/allies during the Desolation, if it really turned out to be the case that the only way to save humanity is to make the sacrifices the Diagram requires, the KR would inevitably become Mr. T's enemy, even if the cost is the extinction of humanity. He'd have to be preparing for that possibility.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Why was this epigraph encoded?  On a meta level, of course, it was to give us something to do.  But Brandon doesn't put anything in the books for purely meta reasons.

 

If this message was encoded (even more so than the rest of the Diagram), then genius!Mr. T must have wanted it to be kept a secret.  But the entire Diagram is already a secret.  So why does this bit need extra secrecy?

[Numb]

The Diagram members are allowed to act on their own will it seems(See Graves) so maybe it's encoded because it's something Mr. T in his genius state realized he could not allow anyone but himself to use.

[Vortaan]

For some reason I think the secret of the Recreance is attached to the epigraph of chapter 83. To quote:

 

 

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia.

From the Diagram, book of the 2nd Ceiling rotation, Pattern 1

 

I can't explain why I think these two are tied together, but whatever this Ancient of Stone is, he's been apparently holding together the world at least since the Heralds broke their Oaths. Is he Taln? If so, could the Recreance have been a massive realization by the Radiants that the Heralds broke the very first Oath themselves? They put destination before the journey, and the whole world could suffer for it.

 

Tangent: anyone else think it odd that Jezerin is acknowledged as the leader of the Heralds, but Dalinar is a Bondsmith and is going to lead the Radiants? What, I wonder, did the Herald who inspired the Bondsmiths teach pre-Desolation?

[RShara]

Pretty sure the Ancient of Stones is Taln.  He's Stonesinew too and it fits with his attribute.

 

I thought that T just wrote thoughts down as he thought of them in whatever method he had handy at the time.  But it makes more sense that he wasn't sure who would get to read his writings before he could prevent them, so encrypted the things he felt needed to be kept secret.