Reading Excuses - The Fregn War - Mrwizard70 - 3/19/18, 4651 words

[mrwizard70]

Hey all,

This was written on an iPad in a bus, sorry for any silliness or errors. I have lots of ideas on how to improve this chapter (actually have a whole list of them in another doc) so please let me know what the problems you encountered are. There is a google docs file and a .docx. 

 

Hopefully this helps you guys see why I have a problem with my dialogue. This is actually an attempt at starting a story. 

Thanks,

Wizard

[industrialistDragon]

Just a few formatting quibbles here, because I wanted to start on your submission but I am having to work on formatting it for readability instead:

•  A link is not the same as an attached file. My email program flags googleDocs links as malicious (and I know it's not the only one) and I have to spend time convincing it otherwise. If you're writing in gDocs (I do too!), then you want to make sure you use the File->Download As option to save your piece as a .docx, .doc, .rtf, or .pdf for this list. If you go the .docx or .doc route, you'll then want to open it in some other writing program (I use openOffice but there are a fair number of better ones out there if you don't want to buy in to Microsoft's monopoly) and make sure it looks right.  gDocs can do some formatting weirdness when it exports so it's a good idea to open the files it makes and scan them for oddities regardless of format.

 

• Attached files are attached for a reason. Attached files can be downloaded to a variety of devices and do not require a constant internet connection to read. Many people in this group do not have constant access to a wifi or an internet connection and/or read submissions on a variety of devices and in many locations throughout the day. If you want to include a gDocs link that is fine, but please also include an attached file as well. 

 

• Please double space your submission. A) it's in the guidelines, B ) for people like me who have trouble reading on the screen double spacing (or even 1.5 spacing!) is massively helpful, and C) it's a good habit to get into if you ever intend to submit work to a publisher.

 

If you're not sure how to double space your work, here are some how-to guides that should help:

MSWord: From support.office.com and from a different site ; 

WordPad: From WikiHow ;

GoogleDocs: From support.google.com and from WikiHow ;

Apple (* -- I don't actually have a mac so I can't verify these instructions. They look right though) from support.apple.com  ;
Adobe inDesign: (* -- again, I don't have inDesign, so I'm mostly guessing. Seems decent, though) from forums.adobe.com . 

 

[mrwizard70]

1 hour ago, industrialistDragon said:

Just a few formatting quibbles here, because I wanted to start on your submission but I am having to work on formatting it for readability instead:

•  A link is not the same as an attached file. My email program flags googleDocs links as malicious (and I know it's not the only one) and I have to spend time convincing it otherwise. If you're writing in gDocs (I do too!), then you want to make sure you use the File->Download As option to save your piece as a .docx, .doc, .rtf, or .pdf for this list. If you go the .docx or .doc route, you'll then want to open it in some other writing program (I use openOffice but there are a fair number of better ones out there if you don't want to buy in to Microsoft's monopoly) and make sure it looks right.  gDocs can do some formatting weirdness when it exports so it's a good idea to open the files it makes and scan them for oddities regardless of format.

 

• Attached files are attached for a reason. Attached files can be downloaded to a variety of devices and do not require a constant internet connection to read. Many people in this group do not have constant access to a wifi or an internet connection and/or read submissions on a variety of devices and in many locations throughout the day. If you want to include a gDocs link that is fine, but please also include an attached file as well. 

 

• Please double space your submission. A) it's in the guidelines, B ) for people like me who have trouble reading on the screen double spacing (or even 1.5 spacing!) is massively helpful, and C) it's a good habit to get into if you ever intend to submit work to a publisher.

 

If you're not sure how to double space your work, here are some how-to guides that should help:

MSWord: From support.office.com and from a different site ; 

WordPad: From WikiHow ;

GoogleDocs: From support.google.com and from WikiHow ;

Apple (* -- I don't actually have a mac so I can't verify these instructions. They look right though) from support.apple.com  ;
Adobe inDesign: (* -- again, I don't have inDesign, so I'm mostly guessing. Seems decent, though) from forums.adobe.com . 

 

Super sorry, this is what I get for trying to submit via iPad. Fixed the gdocs piece, and the second email has the attached double spaced docx. 

[kais]

Overall

I don't actually see too much of an issue with dialogue. It's a bit stilted, but that will come along with editing and practice. I had more of an issue with motivation and buy-in (which are all common new writer problems, so no big worries there). Comments below. I think it has a reasonable start to a narrative, but you'll need to figure out what makes your character, and his journey, special. There are many, many narratives with the young outcast boy going off and seeking his fortune. What is different about your boy? What is the hook? OTOH, if you're just writing for you, or for the sheer enjoyment, then the only thing that really matters is that the story hooks you, and makes you happy. If you could give us an idea if you're writing for yourself, or writing with the desire to eventually publish, that would be very helpful and would help us direct our critiques in the best direction.

Keep at it!

 

As I go

- page one: possessive 'its' does not use an apostrophe

- taught is a tense of 'to teach'

- page two has a number of run-on sentences

- page three: it's hard to stay interested in the narrative, since I don't know a thing about the narrator, nor do I have any real sense of stakes. I also will likely have numerous questions about the gender balance of this narrative in the not too distant future

- page four: are none of the islanders, men? 

- page four: protag doesn't seem that concerned with death. His lack of caring makes it hard to get invested into the narrative. I need to feel fear, or angst, or some other strong emotion

- page five: doesn't the boy showing the guy where best to go and not be seen sort of screw everyone else on the island? Why is the protag so willing to sell everyone else out?

- page eight: I've got name fatigue now, I'm afraid. Too many new names and places being thrown about. I won't be able to keep them straight

- page ten: this feels like the middle of a book, not the start. There is so much political maneuvering and so many names and matter of factness... I just can't seem to put the pieces together. I need more investment in the protag before I want to read any of this. It's all just sort of in one ear, out the other without that all important buy-in

- page 11: he gets into the army pretty easily... it strikes me as odd

- page 14: here we finally get the boy's motivations! Which is good, since apparently he's fine with a bunch of innocent people being murdered...

 

[mrwizard70]

2 hours ago, kais said:

Overall

I don't actually see too much of an issue with dialogue. It's a bit stilted, but that will come along with editing and practice. I had more of an issue with motivation and buy-in (which are all common new writer problems, so no big worries there). Comments below. I think it has a reasonable start to a narrative, but you'll need to figure out what makes your character, and his journey, special. There are many, many narratives with the young outcast boy going off and seeking his fortune. What is different about your boy? What is the hook? OTOH, if you're just writing for you, or for the sheer enjoyment, then the only thing that really matters is that the story hooks you, and makes you happy. If you could give us an idea if you're writing for yourself, or writing with the desire to eventually publish, that would be very helpful and would help us direct our critiques in the best direction.

Keep at it!

 

As I go

- page one: possessive 'its' does not use an apostrophe

- taught is a tense of 'to teach'

- page two has a number of run-on sentences

- page three: it's hard to stay interested in the narrative, since I don't know a thing about the narrator, nor do I have any real sense of stakes. I also will likely have numerous questions about the gender balance of this narrative in the not too distant future

- page four: are none of the islanders, men? 

- page four: protag doesn't seem that concerned with death. His lack of caring makes it hard to get invested into the narrative. I need to feel fear, or angst, or some other strong emotion

- page five: doesn't the boy showing the guy where best to go and not be seen sort of screw everyone else on the island? Why is the protag so willing to sell everyone else out?

- page eight: I've got name fatigue now, I'm afraid. Too many new names and places being thrown about. I won't be able to keep them straight

- page ten: this feels like the middle of a book, not the start. There is so much political maneuvering and so many names and matter of factness... I just can't seem to put the pieces together. I need more investment in the protag before I want to read any of this. It's all just sort of in one ear, out the other without that all important buy-in

- page 11: he gets into the army pretty easily... it strikes me as odd

- page 14: here we finally get the boy's motivations! Which is good, since apparently he's fine with a bunch of innocent people being murdered...

 

Well, that's... problematic. 

First off. Writing with the intent to be published, though that's kinda a pipe dream seeing as I'm a business major. 

Thank you so much for the corrections.

I'm not going to defend, just going back to the drawing board. 

 

[kais]

11 minutes ago, mrwizard70 said:

Well, that's... problematic. 

First drafts are always problematic. My drafts aren't usually any good until draft six or seven. Revision is the key to most success in writing. Keep at it, and don't get discouraged. We're here to help!

[Mandamon]

I also didn't have a problem with the dialogue, as @kais says, some of it was a little stilted, but it fit in with the older time period and military bent.

There was a lot of grammar stuff I didn't mark, as I assume  you'll clean this once it's off an ipad.

I also agree the boy's motivations were unclear at the start, but made sense at the end. Moving a couple lines closer to the beginning can fix this. My main problem was him switching back and forth between giving out information and trying to save his neck. I would think a member of an insular community wouldn't give away any information they didn't have to.

THAT SAID, I enjoyed what we've seen of the MC's character so far. He's capable and intelligent, and had learned a lot by watching, even though he's a wharf rat. I think fleshing out his character can make him very enjoyable to read. He reminds me a little of Locke Lamora, though without as much snark. Giving him a concrete reason for spilling the fortresses' plans could be an interesting hook (he hates the lord, he wants to be a pirate, he doesn't like hurting people but likes stealing...etc...).

 

Notes while reading:

pg 1: This might be on the edge of too much description and not enough action, but it's still drawing me in.

pg 1: love the curse!

pg 2: the MC is almost doing an infodump, telling the pirate everything he wants to know.

pg 3: "drop in his likeness to shoot me on a whim "
--??

pg 3/4: I'm not sure how I feel about the MC spilling his guts about the best way to take the fortress. It's interesting, but I want to see where it goes and how it affects his character.

pg 5: "I’ll probably be hung for turning traitor.”
--Yeah, I think this is problem I have. MC says he's saving his own skin, but giving away so much information might be more hurtful than helpful to him.

pg 7: "you could help the boat we leave behind to stay alive"
--??

[Rogueshar]

Overall I'm interested in what happens next though I'm not sure of the motivations of the main character and what is driving them to do what they do. I like the description at the beginning of the ships coming in, it had a very ominous feel to it. 

Questions while reading:
-why doesn't the narrator run into the fortress like everyone else if they've been trained from childhood to do so? Is it merely because of an article in a magazine they read? I'm a bit confused by that.
-Okay so the narrator grew up on the warf but they knows a lot about how much damage a ship can do to a fort? I'm confused as to where they gets his information from, this sounds like it should be something you would learn through experience not through reading a magazine (book?)
-I'm not sure what the narrator's motivation is to giving the pirates all the information? Do they not like the villagers, do they believe its hopeless to fight back? I'm unsure why the narrator is doing what they're doing right now.
-Does the narrator not like their home? They seem desperate to leave.

[mrwizard70]

3 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

Overall I'm interested in what happens next though I'm not sure of the motivations of the main character and what is driving them to do what they do. I like the description at the beginning of the ships coming in, it had a very ominous feel to it. 

Questions while reading:
-why doesn't the narrator run into the fortress like everyone else if they've been trained from childhood to do so? Is it merely because of an article in a magazine they read? I'm a bit confused by that.
-Okay so the narrator grew up on the warf but they knows a lot about how much damage a ship can do to a fort? I'm confused as to where they gets his information from, this sounds like it should be something you would learn through experience not through reading a magazine (book?)
-I'm not sure what the narrator's motivation is to giving the pirates all the information? Do they not like the villagers, do they believe its hopeless to fight back? I'm unsure why the narrator is doing what they're doing right now.
-Does the narrator not like their home? They seem desperate to leave.

Well I completely failed to convey that stuff. Huh. Thanks. 

[Rogueshar]

4 minutes ago, mrwizard70 said:

Well I completely failed to convey that stuff. Huh. Thanks. 

As a writer, I think its really easy to forget that the reader doesn't know everything you know about your character. My mom used to tell me that I was giving her too much frosting but no cake about a character when she would read my writing. Its takes practice and patienc and lots of rewriting.  

Edited March 20, 2018 by Rogueshar

[industrialistDragon]

 

On 3/19/2018 at 10:55 AM, mrwizard70 said:

Hopefully this helps you guys see why I have a problem with my dialogue

I didn't notice much of a problem with the dialogue. Yes, it is mostly action sentences taking the weight of identifying the speaker, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. If it bothers you, then my suggestions from your last submission, to add dialogue tags and try to put them in different locations in the spoken text, would also be my suggestions for a solution here as well. 

 

For the rest of it I had a difficult time getting into this story. Story-wise, I agree with @kais, and I found it very much like a great many things I have seen before. When stories play as closely to genre tropes as this one does, the interest comes from seeing how the author takes those tropes and archetypes and makes something new out of something familiar.  How does the author differentiate their characters and plot from all the others using the same archetypes? How is the author turning the work from just another Trope X tale into something uniquely their own? 

Martha Wells is one of my current favorite authors and her latest novella series, Murderbot Diaries, is is using the "sentient robot gains control of itself and kills everyone" trope in unique ways that I love.  I've linked to an excerpt of the first chapter there because in the first couple paragraphs it manages to establish personality, motivation, trope, and unique trope iteration in a great, engaging way. She is writing in first person, which lends itself to the kind of casual tone the novella has, but even absent that, I think it's a good example of what is meant by suggestions to make a character have personality, or be unique, or to "have a hook." 

From a technical standpoint, I noticed number of spelling and grammar errors, and a fair amount of homophones as well. For a first draft this isn't uncommon, so I'm not going to comment on them beyond this. They do however affect my ability to lose myself in the work a bit. 

 

I can tell you have a real passion for military-style stories, and your familiarity with the subject matter really shines through! I, personally, need more human elements in a work to become caught up in it, however. The world looks interesting, and I enjoy both political- and military-style adventures, but I'm just not engaging much with it yet. 

[mrwizard70]

2 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

For the rest of it I had a difficult time getting into this story. Story-wise, I agree with @kais, and I found it very much like a great many things I have seen before. When stories play as closely to genre tropes as this one does, the interest comes from seeing how the author takes those tropes and archetypes and makes something new out of something familiar.  How does the author differentiate their characters and plot from all the others using the same archetypes? How is the author turning the work from just another Trope X tale into something uniquely their own? 

1

As a discovery writer, this is problematic for me. The idea I've been playing with recently is to make it about the army and the challenges the army faces, but that deemphasizes the character, who already basically doesn't exist. 

[industrialistDragon]

9 minutes ago, mrwizard70 said:

who already basically doesn't exist

Then maybe he's not the protagonist of your story? Of all the characters, the captain/leader was the most interesting to me, and he's already situated in the army. Maybe try writing something from his perspective? 

[Robinski]

I’m always up for a new story on here. So, let’s have at it, paying particular attention to the dialogue. I’ll not bother with grammar and such.

• I’m confused by the blocking, the arrangement of the scene. If the ships are only twenty feet away, and looking right at the viewer, they won’t need rowboats, but simply would put down bridges or planks when tying up at the docks.
• Also, why would a regiment of marines be in cahoots with pirates? Pirates are not organised, whereas marines are an adjunct of an organised state, surely. Something felt off there, to me.
• I presume the viewer, who lives in a port town, and is present on the docks, would know about ships. Learn the names and give us more details: these ships will be frigates; schooners; barques; clippers; whatever, but if you are going for a maritime theme, I would do the research to make it believable and more immersive.
• Again blocking. The curse is funny, but I don’t get how the soldier can be close enough to hear it and not be on the dock.
• “boatful of chortling marines bumped the dock” – research required, but it’s blocking again. In a port, the docks are high to accommodate large ships, so rowing boats are way below the level of the dock. If this is not the case, then to me it’s not a dock, but a landing stage or some such, possibly a pier.
• In the absence of any characters to sympathise with (not yet feeling anything for the POV character), my attention is all on grappling with the incongruity of the sailing / marine terms.
• “jolly” is a word that threw me off completely. I can’t quite get a grasp of the tone of this piece.
• If these are pirates representing a state/country/nation, then I think ‘privateer’ is probably the more appropriate term, or possibly mercenary. The difficulty I'm having is that pirate is very much an individual or group of individuals out to serve themselves, rather than any state.
• If the north wall of the fort is buttressed by a building, that will add strength to the wall. Also, the outer wall of the building would take the first impact of a cannonball, possibly providing some protection to the outer wall. So, I’m not entirely following the logic of the strategy.
• “co-workers” – is a word completely off-tone for a period story like this.
• “I was always too calm when things went wrong” – I don’t understand this.
• Ah; the pirate thing. Okay, so it’s the viewpoint character that is ‘incompetent’ in relation to such things, but we’ve been hearing about pirates for several pages now, but his knowledge of tactics seems inconsistent with that.
• I’ve got to say that, by this point, I'm having no particular issue with then dialogue. The characters don’t have masses of personality, but they have some, and there is some colour in their dialogue, not just dry facts and instructions.
• There are some POV issues similar to the point of the marines landing on the dock. If the m/c is in the protective force of soldiers, he can’t hear or know that the officer who has remained is sniping at the marines who are muttering about him.
• Also, why on earth have they sent a group of enemy soldiers to protect the messenger. Surely, they are much more likely to be fired upon than one boy approaching the fort, and a local boy at that.
• I would have liked more description of the weather as he was walking to the fort. If you mentioning it regularly, it will ground the action more in the adverse conditions.
• “but his mustache had been waxed, and was repelling the water admirably” – LOL.
• The use of the word ‘jolly’ is still throwing me off though, as there is nothing jolly about the story so far, so it feels like telling.
• “but he didn’t particularly care” – POV issue; the character can’t actually know that.
• The line about growing a spine, and the curt response (from a character out of breath): it’s good dialogue. Not having much experience of your writing, I don’t know how bad it was before, but the dialogue here is pretty convincing for me.
• Why would the officers point when they can speak to each other in their own language? It looks quite clearly like a writerly device so that the wharf rat can understand what is going on.
• “self-preservation mode” – this is modern speak, doesn’t fit the tone/period of the story.
• “help the boat we leave behind to stay alive” – don’t understand.
• “He didn’t say anything, just watched me go with a bemused smile on his face” – POV issue again. The kid can’t know that, because he’s running away.
• “They would be watching for something like this, if only because it was the only thing they could reasonably hope to defend against.” – This makes no sense to me.
• “the north wall where the blocks were new” – you said before that the north wall was weak, confused.
• The first paragraph of the second part is awkward: needs a good edit. The guards being useless is too convenient. I would rather see the protag being competent and inventive than someone else being conveniently incompetent. It’s low-hanging fruit: easier than puzzling out another way for him to get up to the wall.
• Are there no guards on the north wall? He can just hop over and go in without being challenged? Too easy. Same for being able to stroll to the tower completely unobserved and climb it without being seen. There being no one in the courtyard beggared belief. There were some nice notes about the weather, tiredness and the availability of footholds, but otherwise this second part was unconvincing to me.

There is definitely a story here. The pacing was good, the protag was never idle, always moving forwards, which was fine. I appreciate it was a first pass, and clearly there is work to be done. I thought the first section hung together pretty well, but there were notes of logic, and also of detail, that let it down. Those can easily be fixed of course, and I think it will be a decently effective opening to a novel.

The thing that disappointed me was a noticeable lack of feeling for the protag. There are some character notes coming through. I like that he is self-serving, and seems to think little of the people of the town and more about getting himself away. That was fine, but I'd like to know more about the whys of that, more about him as a person early on, so I can engage with him better.

The second section was rougher, but the thing that troubled me over it was that it was all too easy. Don’t know if you’ve listened to the Writing Excuses podcasts, but ‘low hanging fruit’ is a phrase that comes up from time to time. Essentially, the first idea is never the best of most original. Protag getting up and over the wall and only encountering three guards during an invasion is pretty ridiculous, if you think about it.

Some nice work here. I'm hoping to read more of it.

<R>

[Robinski]

On 20/03/2018 at 2:00 PM, Mandamon said:

THAT SAID, I enjoyed what we've seen of the MC's character so far. He's capable and intelligent, and had learned a lot by watching, even though he's a wharf rat. I think fleshing out his character can make him very enjoyable to read. He reminds me a little of Locke Lamora, though without as much snark.

Yeah, I'm in this camp. Sure, he's a bad 'un, but he still can be an interesting protagonist. But not the Locke Lamora bit  

On 21/03/2018 at 3:37 AM, industrialistDragon said:

On 21/03/2018 at 3:27 AM, mrwizard70 said:

who already basically doesn't exist

Then maybe he's not the protagonist of your story? Of all the characters, the captain/leader was the most interesting to me, and he's already situated in the army. Maybe try writing something from his perspective?

I must disagree with @industrialistDragon ((()))  I think a story from the officer's standpoint would be rather boring, as his actions are constrained by duty and a very straightforward (it seems) mission to capture the town.