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Formation of the Ire (question- SH+Elantris Spoils)


Massik

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The Ire, as we know are Elantrians that were thrown into the Shardpool once their pain after the Reod became too much to bear.  

The questions I've been pondering is whether they knew what the shardpool would do, and whether regained a measure of their former glory as Elantrians simply by traveling to the CR, or if they stayed basically Hoed until Raoden figured out how to get the Dor flowing again.  

Any theories or WoB's on this?

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The WoB I found have Brandon being very RAFO about the Elantrian shardpool and the CR.  I haven't found one that explicitly says the Ire members are recovered Hoed.  Brandon says several times though that the Ire is very, very, very old, implying that they formed pre-Reod?

Most are like this:

Quote

mail-mi

Are the Ire old enough to have gone through the Reod?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ire are very, very, very, very old.

Footnote: Brandon adds "very old" again a few moments later.
source

Quote

Pontus Hallén

Regarding the Ire: did they set out into the Cosmere pre- or post-Reod?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! :)

source

Spoilers for length:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Mistborn: Secret History... The Ire--are they Elantrians?

Brandon Sanderson

They are.

Questioner

They are.

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm.

Questioner

And how-- what is their history with Ruin and the other [Vessels]?

Brandon Sanderson

So, these are some very old people, who are cosmere-aware.

Questioner

Are they... that wasn't mine... Do they predate the Elantrian story?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't answered that, and people have asked it. So I'll RAFO that.

Questioner

Oh, great.

Brandon Sanderson

But let's just say they're very old, and the Shardpool in Elantris, if you go back and read about the lore surrounding it in the book Elantris, you will see that they were aware of what was happening with it before the fall of Elantris.

Questioner

Did they-- were they affected by the cataclysm?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO!

source

This one suggests that going to the CR on Sel is generally not healthy and the latter post-Reod Elantrians who enter are....uh....being torn to shreds.

Spoiler

Titan Arum

If a Hoed goes to the shardpool in the mountains, what happens to them in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you think happens to them?

Titan Arum

I want to say that the IRE, but I know they’re not because they’re really, really, really, really old.

Brandon Sanderson

I have...

Questioner 2

I have a theory that that’s how you get seons.

Brandon Sanderson

Here’s the thing, here’s the thing, what have I said about the Cognitive Realm on Sel?

Titan Arum

That it’s really, really dangerous.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Any guesses why?

Titan Arum

Because the Shards are Splintered so all the power of the Dor is kind of sloshing around and it’s basically like a highstorm there.

Brandon Sanderson

So, what would happen if someone went into there through the shardpool?

Titan Arum

It’s probably not as good as they think it is?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Titan Arum

Would they get splintered like that?

Brandon Sanderon

No they’d just...

Titan Arum

Would they get ripped apart?

Brandon Sanderon

Yeah. That’s why it’s really dangerous.

Titan Arum

Ouch.

Questioner

So the Elantrians are just dying when they go in...

Questioner

So when the Hoed or the Elantrians go in...

Brandon Sanderon

For the...let’s just say they’re cast into a very dangerous environment without any preparation for it.

Questioner

So how’d the Ire get there?

Questioner

They have gone before or they may have been properly prepared.

Brandon Sanderon

There’s some theories, that are theories that could totally be the case.  Or you could theorize others as well.

source

 

I assume that the Ire were old Elantrians that possibly used the Shardpool to flee before/during the splintering of Dominion and Devotion.

I assume that the old Elantrian Raoden and Co slips into the pool is pretty much wrecked.

I have no idea how Hoid got through the pool other than because he's Hoid.

Edited by Zellyia
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The Ire are an organization composed of both Pre-Reod and Post-Reod Elantrians. This WoB isn't confirmation as the question has been lost, but as the Footnote says, I believe it's about them. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

With the-- You're talking about the breaking of Elantris? Who says it was after?

Questioner

Well I assumed it was before...

Questioner

...Who says it was before or after? The real answer to that is some are from before, some are from after. That's the actual answer. I was being cheeky but you caught me because I misread the question. They are not all the same age.

Footnote: The actual question is unknown, but presumably it refers to the Ire.
source

With an organization like the Ire, I highly doubt that they have just permanently stopped recruiting, so my money is that some of them are ancient, and may be among those who built Elantris, and some are Post-Reod. 

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Thanks for the info, all.

I guess I had assumed the Ire were post Reod castoffs, because if that organization was around prior to it, i would have figured when the Reod did hit, and the Eleantrians were being overthrown, they would have just left via the perpendicularity. 

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6 hours ago, Zellyia said:

I assume that the old Elantrian Raoden and Co slips into the pool is pretty much wrecked.

I have no idea how Hoid got through the pool other than because he's Hoid.

'Hoid being Hoid' can explain just about anything. For the Elantrian that Raoden and the others take to the Perpendicularity, well... (OB but not exactly)

Spoiler

Brandon all but states that Riino, a mysterious man that Kaladin meets in Roshar's Cognitive Realm, is that Elantrian.

 

Edited by Weltall
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I assume a good Dor's practioner could manage to do something before the Dor claims him (assuming Selish magic works in CR).

Much more we don't know if the CR side of the Perp is safe or not (like the eye of a Storm where you could stay relative safe).

So if the guy arrived with his mind restored into Shadesmar and the perp is safe...he could find some way to overcome his problems.

Hoid waited and when Elantris was restored and the Built up of the Dor lessened he managed to leave Sel.

Of course the book implies he left because he failed to turn into an Elantrian but maybe he can't actually leave before

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19 hours ago, Yata said:

I assume a good Dor's practioner could manage to do something before the Dor claims him (assuming Selish magic works in CR).

Much more we don't know if the CR side of the Perp is safe or not (like the eye of a Storm where you could stay relative safe).

So if the guy arrived with his mind restored into Shadesmar and the perp is safe...he could find some way to overcome his problems.

Hoid waited and when Elantris was restored and the Built up of the Dor lessened he managed to leave Sel.

Of course the book implies he left because he failed to turn into an Elantrian but maybe he can't actually leave before

Perhaps he just had to leave, to pull strings elsewhere?  

Consider any (though not all) taken up by the Shaod are adults. I don't believe there is a pre-determined amount of time in which to become Elantrian.  

I think it more likely he had to do something elsewhere and wasn't able to become Elantrian in the time he (was) allotted to do so.  

 

Perhaps the Reod did weaken the perpendicularity. But then, how did Hoid make it there to begin with?  Was he stuck on Sel for 10 years, or can you still come in through a perpendicularity that you can't leave through?

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The "build up" really wasn't that substantial.  When Raoden first drew the correct Aon in the library, the build up was enough to set the library on fire, is about it.  It was only building up a little bit locally because he was trying to channel it so much. After that, the Dor settled down as evidenced by the cessation of "attacks" on Raoden.  It shouldn't have been enough to affect how dangerous the Dor was in the Cognitive Realm.

 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

If you were wondering, most of the explanations we get in this chapter are true. The reason that Raoden was subject to the Dor attacks was because he spent so much time practicing with the Aons. He began to make a bridge between this world and the Dor, and because of that, he gave the Dor a slight opening into his soul. I imagine that he isn't the first one to suffer something like this during the ten years that Elantris has been fallen. Other Elantrians probably practiced with the Aons, and the Dor eventually destroyed them. When it was done, they simply became Hoed.

By finally using the Dor effectively, Raoden relieved a little bit of the pressure, letting the nearby buildup of the Dor (the one that he himself had created by practicing so much) rip through him and fuel that single Aon.

Originally, I had Raoden's conflict with the Dor continue on after this scene–I had it continue attacking him. In a later draft, however, I realized that I'd made a mistake. Raoden has other things to worry about in the upcoming chapters–he doesn't need the Dor attacks to create conflict and tension. So, after this chapter, the Dor attacks actually became distractions. I also realized that the way I'd set up the magic system, this chapter was probably the place where the Dor should stop attacking, since Raoden had fulfilled what he wanted it to do.

source

 

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Also we know that Galladon is one of the three people looking for Hoid in the first WoK interlude, so we know that even though it is dangerous there is currently a way to get off of Sel other than being Hoid.

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We do however know that Sel's Cognitive Realm is still dangerous close to the time of Stormlight Archive, as all the essays in Arcanum Unbounded were written at the same time and context clues let us place their writing sometime after the end of Mistborn Era 1. We also know from WoB that Brandon wants to write the Elantris sequels before Mistborn Era 3 for some behind-the-scenes reasons he's not sharing. However, chronologically these would all take place before the start of Mistborn Era 1, while it's clear that the Dor was still a dangerous thing for some time after that Era's end. So it's unlikely that those books end with newly reformed (or combined) Devotion and Dominion and all that power withdrawn back into the Spiritual, or Khriss wouldn't talk about the dangers of the Dor in the present tense.

.And as I mentioned earlier, we have evidence that while dangerous it is still possible for beings not named Hoid to traverse Sel's Cognitive region safely, so there's no obvious reason why Galladon couldn't manage it.

Edited by Weltall
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I don't disagree that it is accessible.  I'm just curious on how accessible, or what factors may or may not have led to them becoming more accessible in the gap.

I started this asking about Reod era Elantrians becoming Ire.  But, I'm aware it's all supposition.  

How accessible (eh?) is the arcanum coppermind?

 

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13 hours ago, Massik said:

I don't disagree that it is accessible.  I'm just curious on how accessible, or what factors may or may not have led to them becoming more accessible in the gap.

Brandon said that the Dor made things incredibly dangerous for the Hoed being placed into the Perpendicularity, because they weren't prepared for the clusterf-ck that was happening in the Cognitive Realm. Not being a mindless Hoed, consumed by pain is probably a great start towards preparing for a dicey situation. Having powerful magic, assuming that since location is still relevant in the CR and that Perpendicularity is located pretty close to Elantris that Elantrian magic would be quite strong there too, would also help plenty. It might be as simple as that.

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This is only somewhat related, but Do we know anything more about if there is another shardpool on Sel. I mean there were both Devotion and Dominion. There is a lot of speculation regarding how their death/splintering affected the magic on Sel. But If I remember right, I saw a WoB saying that Sel is one of the most Cosmere aware planets.

When the Shards were splintered, did the power from them get combined, and so the Shardpool near Elantris is the Shardpool for both devotion and Dominion? or is there a second Shardpool somewhere on Sel (Perhaps the third great Domain?) I personally think that there should be a second Shardpool somewhere. Maybe The conditions near the other pool are more safe(albeit still dangerous), and worldhoppers are using that pool in order to enter and exit Sel.

I haven't read up a whole lot on Elantris, Sel or the Ire, So my theories might be completely wrong, even based on what we know from WoB, but it seems like a possibility to me.

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Since there were two Shards that heavily Invested on Sel, there should be a second pool associated with Dominion and it would have remained in place after Odium's visit. The Dor is described as being dangerous because of the conflicting nature of the two Shards so while the power has been forced together, it isn't unified in a way that would see its Physical manifestation merging in the way that Scadrial only has a single Perpendicularity as of Era 2. Which also involved a mind guiding all that power, while the Dor is mindless. So yeah, there's every reason to assume that Sel has another Perpendicularity somewhere.

We know that Shu-Dereth is more associated with Dominion while Elantris was more associated with Devotion so it's possible that the second Perpendicularity is in/around Fjorden, though it could just as easily be in the unknown third great domain or for all we know it could be part of the Dzhamar swamps or Galladon's favorite fishing pond when he was living in Duladel.

As for relative safey, the entire Cognitive 'zone' of Sel is dangerous due to the power of the Shards violently clashing, so it's unlikely that the CR region around the second Perpendicularity would be any safer on average. It's likely that there are times when any given Cognitive location might be less dangerous in the same way that there are lulls in a storm, but not a standing region of greater stability. Probably. Given the other weird things happening on Sel due to all that power being stuck in the Cognitive instead of Spiritual Realm, there's more room for our predictions to be thrown off by factors we don't yet understand. :unsure:

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There should be two shardpools.  And it could be possible that worldhoppers use the second, but we still don't have any confirmation on whether it's been utilized.  

A part of me wonders if the skaze and the Fjiordel bone runes are corrupted versions of seons and aeons.   We know Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion, so I wonder how much investiture Odium may have expended in doing so, and whether it left its fingerprint on Sel.  

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5 minutes ago, Massik said:

A part of me wonders if the skaze and the Fjiordel bone runes are corrupted versions of seons and aeons.   We know Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion, so I wonder how much investiture Odium may have expended in doing so, and whether it left its fingerprint on Sel. 

Seons are splinters of Devotion, and Skaze are splinters of Dominion. 

Quote

Viper (paraphrased)

At one point someone [on 17th Shard] asked you if seons were Shards of--

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Aona.

Viper (paraphrased)

Devotion ... yeah Aona, and you said that was close. My question is: are the Aons at the HEART of the Seons Shards of Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, but close.

Viper (paraphrased)

But... I was sure... the floating Aon at the heart, that's not a Shard...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*taking pity* You're close but a word is wrong. You're using the wrong terminology.

Viper (paraphrased)

SPLINTER. Are the Aons at the heart of Seons SPLINTERS of Aona?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

source

Quote

Questioner

I recently reread Elantris and I came to an interesting conclusion: that the seons are similar to the spren.

Brandon Sanderson

They are.

Questioner

And are they Servitude, broken pieces of Servitude.

Brandon Sanderson

So, they are actually broken pieces of Devotion, which is a similar concept, but yes.

Questioner

And then the Elantrians are based off of Dominion then?

Brandon Sanderson

Dominion are the skaze. They are referenced briefly.

Questioner

Then Hoid talks to them, or--

Brandon Sanderson

Hrathen references the skaze in his thoughts. I show a skaze I believe in the extra bonus scene, don't I?

Questioner

Where Hoid is going to jump into the well?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is a skaze there, that's a skaze.

Questioner

...I'm assuming then, we can look forward to the skaze!

Brandon Sanderson

You can look forward to the skaze being involved in things, definitely .

source

We also have confirmation that Odium didn't leave any of his own power behind. 

Quote

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

source

 

Edited by Calderis
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