[OB] How Book Five will End

[MountainKing]

How is my theory?

[Song]

6 hours ago, RShara said:

Brandon has said that the ones who've survived will take a step back.  So they might be...not interludes, but fewer chapters.  I mean, Jasnah and Renarin are slated to be main characters, and they won't be exactly young (Jasnah especially). AndAsh and Taln are some of the oldest beings around the cosmere And I don't think they'll need much mentoring

Dalinar's going to be 80 or so at that point,  so staying at home running things sounds like it'd be a good idea for him.

This assumes that all the flashback characters will be alive for their own book, which we know might not be the case.

I am convinced Taln won't survive the next book, and that a Stonewarden Radiant will be the head character of his flashback book.

I can also imagine Renarin giving his life to defeat the fused somehow at the end of book 5, but that role could also be taken by Kaladin or Dalinar.

I agree with the idea that the fuse are defeated at the end of book 5, but Odium is still trapped.

[RShara]

15 minutes ago, Song said:

This assumes that all the flashback characters will be alive for their own book, which we know might not be the case.

I am convinced Taln won't survive the next book, and that a Stonewarden Radiant will be the head character of his flashback book.

I can also imagine Renarin giving his life to defeat the fused somehow at the end of book 5, but that role could also be taken by Kaladin or Dalinar.

I agree with the idea that the fuse are defeated at the end of book 5, but Odium is still trapped.

That's true.  But at least some of them are going to be alive so I'm not completely nuts.

[thegatorgirl00]

6 hours ago, Song said:

I am convinced Taln won't survive the next book, and that a Stonewarden Radiant will be the head character of his flashback book.

I can also imagine Renarin giving his life to defeat the fused somehow at the end of book 5, but that role could also be taken by Kaladin or Dalinar.

Jasnah is the one I'm unsure will survive, but that might just be because I have a Jasnah's death theory I'm a bit fond of. Not that I want Jasnah to die, of course. 

[Song]

30 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Jasnah is the one I'm unsure will survive, but that might just be because I have a Jasnah's death theory I'm a bit fond of. Not that I want Jasnah to die, of course. 

I don't want any of them to die! Though I am convinced one or two will! But now I want to hear your Jasnah theory

[thegatorgirl00]

4 hours ago, Song said:

I don't want any of them to die! Though I am convinced one or two will! But now I want to hear your Jasnah theory

Basically, Jasnah will take on an squire/protégée that is a perfect Elsecaller. Ivory will continue to be the only inkspren willing to bond, however. Jasnah will die in some heroic sacrifice, and Ivory will bond the squire. The flashback book will parallel Jasnah's experiences bonding Ivory alone, without guidance, and the new Elsecaller's experiences bonding Ivory after just losing her mentor. 

Jasnah will either die in the books or become a worldhopper who will pop up in sci-fi Mistborn. I can't imagine any other ending for her. 

[Rainier]

5 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Jasnah is the one I'm unsure will survive, but that might just be because I have a Jasnah's death theory I'm a bit fond of. Not that I want Jasnah to die, of course. 

23 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Jasnah will either die in the books or become a worldhopper who will pop up in sci-fi Mistborn. I can't imagine any other ending for her. 

As far as I'm concerned, Jasnah is going to survive because she's the one who is going to figure out exactly what's going on and how to stop Odium. Dalinar might have the power to make it so, but it will be Jasnah who finds out what to do in the first place. There's something about how Jasnah is the character that's changed the least from the original drafts, and how she's a main character of the final book, that make me think this could be possible.

 

[IronBars]

Personally i think book 5 ends with a resounding defeat for the KR, but shows why hope for the future because of something.

Kaladin dies, Adolin dies, bridge 4 all die, navani dies, Szeth dies, 

Shallan/Jasnah/ Renarin/ Dalinar/ lift survive.

Odium conquers Uirthru (mispelt sorry)

Time gap is to allow time for odium to assert full control, begin destroying roshar, and meanwhile there's a resistance built by the survivors working in the shadows to undermine Odium, finding new KR etc, 

Book 6-10 is the surviving old KR and new KR trying to stop the complete destruction of Roshar, and finally defeat odium.

Book 5 to me has to end with odium on top, to justify a big time skip, all new main character list etc 

Im probably wrong but seems wrong for the first 5 book arc to end with any type of victory for the KR,

 

[RShara]

That's certainly possible, but I feel like it'd be a bad way to end a series.  The way I've read his comments on the matter, the first 5 are their own series, and the second 5 are a sequel series (I could be wrong, but that's the sense I get from his WoBs).  Ending a series with a bad defeat and a cliffhanger would just be really annoying.

[IronBars]

Technically its only the half way point in the series though, while 1-5 is one arc and 6-10 another arc there both really half the story each right ?

If 1-5 ends with odium defeated in one manor or other then book 6-10 deals with his return, isn't that arc repetitive ?

Thats why i think book 5 ends with an odium victory, its half way point in the story, good time for a cliffhanger.

And makes the arcs more distinct rather then similiar, 

[RShara]

As I said, I read it as the first 5 would be a series, and the second five would be a sequel.  Like how each book has it's own arcs, that are wrapped up to a climax and denoument, then the next book continues the overall arc with its own storyline, character and plot. So ending on a down note and a cliffhanger would be really annoying and unlikely, to me.

Edited March 16, 2018 by RShara

[Solant]

I think by the end of book 5 going into the gap we will see Jasnah removed from the throne due to any number of reasons (death, political unrest from the Vorin church, conflict with her responsibilities as Radiant and /or scholar, etc), and after some amount of character growth (fatherhood, perhaps?), Adolin will sit the throne either as king or regent for Gavinor.

[Wyndlerunner]

I personally feel that we might have a Mistborn era 2 pulled on us. In that I feel that Odium will be splintered at the end of book 5. Roshar has enough potential for enemies beyond Odium (Aimians anyone?)

[IronBars]

@RShara

I also see it that book 1-5 is one series, and book 6-10 is another series, but from what iv seen said there both part of one story, its not like mistborn era 1 and era 2 completly seperate.

So makes sense to me that Odium "wins" the first arc, and "loses" the second arc, if the KR win the first arc, they hardly beat Odium again in second arc, thats repetitive, 

So unless someone else (rayse) fills the void a defeated Odium leaves i dont see how the second "series" works if the KR "win"

Thats why i see it that the KR suffer a devastating defeat, but theres a ray of hope etc given its the midpoint in the story, 

[RShara]

I think the first series will end with the Fused taken care of, the KR refounded, and the battle for the physical Roshar wrapped up.  Then the second series will be about taking care of Odium once and for all.

As I said, I just don't see the first series wrapping up with a defeat and a cliffhanger.  That's just my opinion, but I would really hate that.

[IronBars]

Ya i guess that might happen, but to take care of the fused, wouldnt the KR have to take care of Odium though ? Since he has a vast supply of parshmen to convert ? 

Id actually find the defeat and cliffhanger a good idea lol

[RShara]

Nah.  The Listeners have to be open to the Fused for them to take over.  Getting them to see that the Fused aren't actually very good people, and that they'll die if they let them in, would take care of a lot of that.

Plus, Nightblood.

[CrazyRioter]

That's where Venli comes in.

And I agree with @RShara that given what Brandon has said I expect book 5 to end on a high note. I don't have any good theories on what that high note will look like but I do expect it to end on a high note.

[IronBars]

I guess that could happen seems unlikely would end with them rejecting Odium to me though, its a bit cliché, id actually be disappointed if thats what happened, 

How long is the gap between when we get book 5 and 6 ? Hes writing mistborn inbetween right ?

[Leyrann]

On 14-3-2018 at 1:29 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

Dear Shallan,

If my calculations are correct, you will receive this letter immediately after you saw Urithiru struck by lightning. First, let me assure you that I'm alive and well. I've been living happily these past 8 months in the year 1885.

You are referencing something but I have no idea what. Can anyone elaborate?

6 hours ago, IronBars said:

Odium conquers Uirthru (mispelt sorry)

Urithiru. Just remember that it's symmetrical. Also Alethi (and therefore also most names, though Thaylen is an exception) often alternate between vowels and consonants (with "th", "kh" etc counting as a single consonant). At most there will be two consonants together at the end of a syllable and the start of the next syllable.

2 hours ago, Wyndlerunner said:

I personally feel that we might have a Mistborn era 2 pulled on us. In that I feel that Odium will be splintered at the end of book 5. Roshar has enough potential for enemies beyond Odium (Aimians anyone?)

Aimians have been explicitly stated to have been on the side of the Radiants in the past, seems unlikely to me that they'll be a bigger problem than Odium.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, IronBars said:

I guess that could happen seems unlikely would end with them rejecting Odium to me though, its a bit cliché, id actually be disappointed if thats what happened, 

How long is the gap between when we get book 5 and 6 ? Hes writing mistborn inbetween right ?

In world or real world?  in world, 15-20 years is the current estimate.  Real world, no idea.  However long it takes him to finish his projects and be ready to write arc 2.

19 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

You are referencing something but I have no idea what. Can anyone elaborate?

Urithiru. Just remember that it's symmetrical. Also Alethi (and therefore also most names, though Thaylen is an exception) often alternate between vowels and consonants (with "th", "kh" etc counting as a single consonant). At most there will be two consonants together at the end of a syllable and the start of the next syllable.

Aimians have been explicitly stated to have been on the side of the Radiants in the past, seems unlikely to me that they'll be a bigger problem than Odium.

Back to the Future

Yep, the Aimians seem to be on the side of the Radiants. 

I understand it feels cliche to you, but it feels fitting to me. I feel like stories should have a satisfying conclusion, without major cliffhangers.  Having a cliffhanger at the end of a major arc feels too "TO BE CONTINUED!" to me.  Either way, I'm sure Brandon will do it well

Edited March 16, 2018 by RShara

[IronBars]

Ya i meant real world time, im guessing book 5 be out in 2023 at best ? Then thats at a guess 2030 before book 6, il be 44 by then ugh

[Zelly]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Aimians have been explicitly stated to have been on the side of the Radiants in the past, seems unlikely to me that they'll be a bigger problem than Odium.

.........yes. But that brings an interesting question.

The Skybreakers and a storming Herald are now sided with Odium.    If another order also breaks to Odium or an unknown, we could suddenly have a Radiant War.

And we had a Radiant War, who would the Aimians side with?

[The Thinking Herald]

Disclaimer 1: I am not disagreeing with anyone on this board. I'm simply pitching another idea, another perspective on what could be done.

Disclaimer 2: @Calderis came up with the basis of what I grew this idea out of.

Basic storytelling principles say that each book ought to have 3 disasters before the resolution. So, what I'll be pitching is that book 5 ends with a major, major disaster for the heroes of our story. This is Roshar's Nightmare Scenario.

Let's say the heroes actually completely defeat Odium mid-book 5. They shatter him, spreading his Splinters all over Roshar. Yay, everyone is happy! However, Cultivation shows up, determined that it's time to cultivate her power in the Cosmere. Either that, or she's decided that the best way to Cultivate the Cosmere is if she's the one in charge. Surprise surprise, she picks up a Splinter of Odium. Commence sequence with our heroes attempting to re-seize the Splinters. In the end, the heroes are forced to become Slivers of Odium themselves. Let's say two Splinters go to Dalinar, who's already reassembled Honor at this point, furthering him on the path to becoming Unity. Kaladin either picks up a splinter of Odium, or dies in the process. Shallan may pick up the "Ecstasy" splinter of Odium. In the end, Cultivation has gathered 2/3 Splinters to herself, and the rest go to our heroes. Dalinar uses the Splinters in his possession, as well as the Splinters of the other heroes, to make a binding on Cultivation's power.

The time gap will consist of another drawing of battle lines. Dalinar will attempt to convince the Singers to remain with him, but a portion will join up with Cultivation, as she was their original Goddess, while Dalinar may be seen as an impostor of Honor. Either that, or the Parsh, being more Honorable, could stick with Dalinar, whilst the entire Aimian race joins up with the baddies. In the back half, Hateful!Cultivation will provide a more three-dimensional and more relatable villain than Odium alone ever could have presented, and ideologically could come up with legitimately good reasons for scrubbing our heroes off the face of Roshar. Inevitably, however, Dalinar, or perhaps someone else (Adolin/Jasnah/whoever) in case of his death defeats Hateful!Cultivation, and joins the three shards together to form Unity, ascending beyond Harmony, and becoming the most powerful Cosmere being.

I believe that this arc progression would provide a tenser conflict in the back half than just having Honor!Dalinar and Cultivation ganging up on Odium. As I stated earlier, I could genuinely see Hateful!Cultivation presenting legitimate arguments as to why she should take over the Cosmere, as opposed to Odium doing it solely because he wants to. In addition, the heroes would be hard-pressed to find a victory against a Shard with innumerable more years of experience at tinkering with the Power.

Generally, I think this plot addresses the main arguments currently in the thread, which is finding the balance between giving the heroes a victory while providing a tough time for them in the back half of the Stormlight Archive.

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, IronBars said:

So unless someone else (rayse) fills the void a defeated Odium leaves i dont see how the second "series" works if the KR "win"

Thats why i see it that the KR suffer a devastating defeat, but theres a ray of hope etc given its the midpoint in the story, 

But let's not forget that the things would need to come to some kind of stand-still for 15-20 years. Why would Odium stop after handing out a devastating defeat to his opponents? They are already in a pretty under-doggy position in the SA so far, how would they be able to eventually triumph if they get beaten down even further? Apart from ye olde "a small group of unlikely heroes sneaks into the Dark Lord's stronghold and destroy the McGuffin that maintains his life and power". I don't see how something like this could even be done in this case and, of course, this is a plot device that Sanderson has already used in his work - he managed to differentiate it enough to make it interesting, but going back to that well couldn't feel anything but repetitive, IMHO.

Now, personally I would feel very disappointed if Rayse gets disposed off in the first 5 volumes. He was built up as the most dangerous Vessel of the most dangerous Shard, and I want to see it on-screen. Some newb taking over Odium just wouldn't provide a remotely comparable level of threat, unless they are a world-hopper already possessing requisite knowledge to be dangerous. But IIRC, Stormlight Archive isn't supposed to have too many cosmere cross-overs.

Cosmere spoiler:

Spoiler

I would love to see Kelsier as Odium, as well as follow his evolution into eventual multi-shardic Big Bad of the Cosmere, as he wouldn't share Rayse's desire to keep the Intent pure. He would make a truly impressive antagonist.  But somehow I suspect that Sanderson and most of the readership disagree with me .

@The Thinking Herald:

While it is likely that concentration of shardic power is where Cosmere is going, wouldn't what you suggest feel a bit repetitive, considering Sanderson's previous work? It kinda reminds me of this romance novel conversation in OB:

Quote

“Wait. There are three different men this time?”
“Sequels always have to be bigger,” he said

I-2 Ellista

 

Having said that, I don't know that I have any particularly original ideas for the over-arching resolution of the first half of SA myself, heh. It is always easier to critisize, I guess .  Um... I agree that the first 5-volume sequence will have an at least a mildly upbeat ending. That's just how these things work in publishing and also there needs to be a reason for the time-out before the second half. Otherwise, I can only come up with bits and pieces of ideas about what I think will happen:

1. I am pretty sure that Moash won't be Odium's champion. He is a far too obvious and boring choice, not to mention that he just isn't threatening or experienced enough to create that David against Goliath feeling. I posit Nale as the champion instead, complete with bad-chull dual-sharding and possibly a fully controlled bond to Yelig-Nar. With the outside chance of Ishar/Tezim taking the part instead.

2. Dalinar's champion may be Kaladin, as we all expect, or he may be Szeth. In the latter case, Nale/Ishar and  possibly Yelig-Nar might be permanently eliminated via Nightblood.  Which, in case of Nale and in view of his mentoring of Szeth, I feel that he may have been subconsciously working towards.

3. Dalinar's deal with Odium isn't worth much, though, because:

Quote

“Your freedom if you win, our lives if humans win.”

Is painfully vague. Even if Odium truly operates "in the spirit" of agreements, this bargain leaves out Cultivation, the spren, the parsh and the Aimians, so it can't provide a true long-term solution, even if Dalinar's champion wins. Could it be that he loses, though? I mean, that might provide an interesting twist, since Odium no longer being bound to Rosharan system still won't result in automatic win for him. He'd still want to stay long enough to destroy Cultivation and splinters of her and Honor, maybe even to re-make Roshar as he told Dalinar, though I doubt that last, as it would require him willingly investing his power and binding himself again. OTOH, wouldn't Odium being freed _also_ free parts of Honor's and Cultivation's powers that keep him prisoner? Making it easier to re-form Honor.

Yea, maybe that's what will happen in book 5, provided that Sanderson is willing to kill Kaladin, or if Szeth could somehow lose without allowing Odium's side to claim Nightblood, too.

4. Honor will get re-formed. IMHO, that would be a suitable triumph to end the first pentalogy on. Hopefully by Dalinar, but I strongly suspect that it might turn out that Kaladin is intended to become Honor instead, sigh. He does seem to have a special connection to the Stormfather and attracts gloryspren on occasion. Syl's possessiveness via them in OB could be a hint that she will lose him as a bond-partner.

5. I think that some of the apostate Heralds will redeem themselves and return to Braize, which will contribute to making the 15-20 years pause in hostilities possible. However, the Fused will now be able to eliminate them permanently, using Odium-daggers topped with appropriate gems, or maybe just switching gems on that one dagger. This will be Moash's role, IMHO, as we have seen that the Fused  couldn't/wouldn't do it themselves. He'll go to Braize with them and execute the Heralds with the help of the Fused. The second 5-book sequence will begin once the last one dies and Moash will return as a force to be reckoned with. Taln, who won't  recover by the time Book 5 ends yet and Ash will remain Roshar - she'd  tend him and inform people of other Heralds deaths, so that they would be forewarned about the start of round 2.

6. Odium will lose at least 1 Unmade, but more likely more. Via Nightblood and/or via rebellion and Ghostbloods taking them off-wold and helping them to de-couple themselves from Odium's will somehow.

That's all that comes to me at this time.