hoid Hoid and Feruchemy Theory

[Lord Meeker]

We know that Hoid has been using some form of Feruchemy to be able to see far enough into the future to know where he has to be next, although he isn't always entirely sure why he needs to be there. We know that he took a lerasium bead to gain allomancy. Is it possible that Hoid is using metal minds that have no identity to be able to do this? Or if he was a Feruchemist in the beginning that lerasium allows one to see into the near future? (If I dug up a thread that has been buried/forgotten or created a similar threat, I am sorry, that was not my intention. I just wanted to see whether or not people have thought about this.)

[BillLangdon]

I wouldn’t say we have seen Hoid using feruchemy (forgive me if a WoB confirms that he does). He does seem to have access to Fortune, an attribute that some feruchemists can store in a metalmind, but that isn’t to say that Fortune itself is a power exclusive to feruchemy. As we know all forms of investiture are all essentially different manifestations of the same system. Hoid has a lot of powers and does seem interested in collecting as many flavors of investiture as he can, but at present i’d Say his access to fortune is related to an as yet unseen system.

[Niteshado]

he has access to Feruchemy and this talks about his foresight. But i have not found anything involving how he has Feruchemy

I think we have only seen him using: Lightweaving, Perfect Pitch, Allomancy. 

We kinda see something at end of WoR with his insight

Edited March 8, 2018 by Niteshado

[RShara]

Why are you using theoryland instead of Arcanum?  Huh?  Huh?  (Kidding.  Though Arcanum IS better).

Brandon's walked back on that WoB, and said that Hoid uses something that could be Feruchemy or something that works like accessing Fortune in Feruchemy.  This is from 3 years after that one that you linked.

Quote

Xyrd (paraphrased)

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

Xyrd (paraphrased)

Is chromium involved in that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

source

 

[Lord Meeker]

4 hours ago, BillLangdon said:

I wouldn’t say we have seen Hoid using feruchemy

1

No, he hasn't, I agree. But is there any place where it describes him wearing any metal or has something like piercings? Secondly, it is fortune Hoid uses to see the future? I didn't that was applicable usage for fortune, if it is (which is how Brandon works evidently). But all I know that lerasium is the only metal on the Feruchemic chart that we have no idea how it works.

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Why are you using theoryland instead of Arcanum?  Huh?  Huh?  (Kidding.  Though Arcanum IS better).

1

I didn't know there was a difference because I literally signed up seven hours ago 

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, Ryker Sinclair said:

No, he hasn't, I agree. But is there any place where it describes him wearing any metal or has something like piercings? Secondly, it is fortune Hoid uses to see the future? I didn't that was applicable usage for fortune, if it is (which is how Brandon works evidently). But all I know that lerasium is the only metal on the Feruchemic chart that we have no idea how it works.

I didn't know there was a difference because I literally signed up seven hours ago 

  wob.coppermind.net  Say goodbye to any chance of productivity for the next month or so

[Lord Meeker]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Say goodbye to any chance of productivity for the next month or so

 That ended when I picked up the first Brandon Sanderson book.  So is there any place you recommend I start to sate my desire so piece this puzzle together (or as much together as I can possibly get?)?

[RShara]

Sadly, information on Hoid is mostly pretty scarce.  You can look around Arcanum for the ones we have, but we don't have a solid answer on it.

[Weltall]

22 minutes ago, Ryker Sinclair said:

No, he hasn't, I agree. But is there any place where it describes him wearing any metal or has something like piercings? Secondly, it is fortune Hoid uses to see the future? I didn't that was applicable usage for fortune, if it is (which is how Brandon works evidently).

Brandon has said that Hoid doesn't want to use hemalurgy because he doesn't want to open himself up to being influenced by a Shard. He's also mentioned that yes, Fortune is involved in precognition. The wonders of Arcanum will reveal much to you, just plan on finding yourself losing track of time. xD

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Ruro272 (paraphrased)

Does Hoid have a Hemalurgically charged Nicrosil spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's... unlikely. Hoid would not want to open himself to the influence of Shards so using Hemalurgy on himself is unlikely. Although Hemalurgy is the easiest way to get other powers, he'd more likely do things the hard way.

source

 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

source

We've also gotten multiple confirmations in recent books that Fortune is involved in seeing the future, in Secret History and twice in Oathbringer.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Weltall

[Calderis]

While Hoid doesn't have true Feruchemy as we know it... He does have access to Feruchemy through unsealed metalminds (medallions), though this doesn't explain his use of fortune as that definitely predates their creation. 

Quote

Steeldancer

Hoid. Does he have more unkeyed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid has access to lots of different things, so, yes he does.

source

 

[Scion of the Mists]

17 hours ago, Niteshado said:

he has access to Feruchemy and this talks about his foresight. But i have not found anything involving how he has Feruchemy

I think we have only seen him using: Lightweaving, Perfect Pitch, Allomancy. 

We kinda see something at end of WoR with his insight

In Oathbringer, 

Spoiler

we saw him using Awakening (on the doll).  He also seems well on his way to becoming a Surgebinder (via the Cryptic he rescued).  

Additionally he has some Invested sand from Taldain, although there's no indication he has acquired Sandmastery.  

 

[RShara]

@Scion of the Mists Eeehhh nevermind, I'm dumb.

Edited March 9, 2018 by RShara

[Oversleep]

Quote

[2011] He may be capable of a little bit of foreseeing of certain events, not what?s going to happen, but he may need ot be in a certain place in a certain time.
[2013]
Q:Hoid is regularly around when important events take place. How does he know where to go?
A:He uses Feruchemy. Part of it that will show up in later books.
[2014] He has a surprising ability to be in the right place at the right time in the Cosmere
[2014]
Q:Is Hoid drawn to novel-worthy plots? Or does he ever just show up in a completely "normal" time/place, with no ramifications on the cosmere, shards, etc.?
A:He is drawn to places specifically because of what's happening in those worlds. He is there and he is meddling.
[2016]
Q: Why did Hoid not take both beads of lerasium?
A: Hoid has an innate ability to know where he needs to be and what he needs to do.
[2016]
Q:You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.
A:Yes, and usually without knowing why.
Q:Is Chromium involved in that?
A:Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using Chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

Here's a compilation of WoBs I like to drop when discussing Hoidsense.

As you can see, over the years Brandon backed away from Hoid using Feruchemy to know where to be.

[Scion of the Mists]

19 minutes ago, RShara said:

@Scion of the Mists See my post above addressing those WoBs.  And also about theoryland vs Arcanum

Not sure why this is directed at me.  I just quoted Niteshado's post.  I was just elaborating on other magic systems Hoid has used, seems poised to use.  

[RShara]

1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Not sure why this is directed at me.  I just quoted Niteshado's post.  I was just elaborating on other magic systems Hoid has used, seems poised to use.  

Yeah I already edited my post because I was an idiot

[Scion of the Mists]

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Yeah I already edited my post because I was an idiot

No problem.  And the Arcanum is, indeed, quite awesome.  Fantastic work by the Arcanists

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

Here's a compilation of WoBs I like to drop when discussing Hoidsense.

As you can see, over the years Brandon backed away from Hoid using Feruchemy to know where to be.

Assuming he even said that in the first place. Both relevant WoBs regarding feruchemy are paraphrased, and I wouldn't be surprised, going by the second, that the first had actually had him saying something like "he uses an underlying mechanism that feruchemy uses" and have that mixed up into him using feruchemy.

[Niteshado]

@Scion of the Mists Yes well i was counting that as perfect pitch as well  seeing as that takes 200 breaths. 

[Isilel]

On 9.3.2018 at 7:09 PM, Oversleep said:

As you can see, over the years Brandon backed away from Hoid using Feruchemy to know where to be.

 I think that Sanderson backed off from confirming this because he wanted to keep the means of becoming a Feruchemist when one is not born to it secret for a while longer, due to Kelsier's posthumous actions in Southern Scadrial. His mystery needed to be maintained for a satisfying reveal and obfuscation of the possibility and method of him becoming a Fullborn was  part and parcel of it.

It makes sense that Hoid always had  access to Fortune through some other system, as he knew to appear in places and times where he was needed prior to WoA. However, if he is indeed gathering connections to all the Shards though obtaining their magics as seems likely, then proper Scadrian-style Feruchemy would have been his only option to connect to Ruin bar a hemalurgic spike - something that we know that he is unwilling to contemplate. Also, an extra way of  accessing Connection could only help with his so far unsuccessful attempts to acquire trickier magics, such as those of Sel.

So, IMHO burning a 50 : 50 alloy of atium and lerasium  turns one into a Feruchemist - and that's exactly what Hoid did with his lerasium bead, with a little extra left over to grant him a few Misting powers as well. He needed Iron, Steel and Duralumin to get out of the cache and he seems to have used emotional Allomancy on Shallan's father in WoR.

[Oversleep]

53 minutes ago, Isilel said:

So, IMHO burning a 50 : 50 alloy of atium and lerasium  turns one into a Feruchemist

No. If we go by properties of lerasium alloys (#1 #2 #3), lerasium-atium alloy makes one atium Misting.

Not to mention that lerasium can only grant Allomancy:

Quote

Questioner

Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself allomantic powers?

Brandon Sanderson

His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Questioner

And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It could not give powers other than allomancy.

Questioner

Because it’s lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right?

Brandon Sanderson

You have seen him use Allomancy…

Oversleep

Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>.

Brandon Sanderson

You have actually seen him use Allomancy.

Footnote: Brandon still refuses to say whether Hoid did burn lerasium
source

53 minutes ago, Isilel said:

It makes sense that Hoid always had  access to Fortune through some other system, as he knew to appear in places and times where he was needed prior to WoA.

That's what my opinion is.

By the way, we know Hoid has unkeyed metalminds:

Quote

Steeldancer

Hoid. Does he have more unkeyed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid has access to lots of different things, so, yes he does.

source

But we still don't know if he can use Feruchemy:

Quote

Skaiiwalker (paraphrased)

Does Hoid use his Feruchemical abilities with the atium to see the future?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ah ah ah, I haven't confirmed that Hoid had Feruchemical abilities.

Skaiiwalker (paraphrased)

You haven't?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*grinning slyly* No, but most people think he has Allomancy.

source

As far as we know, we should disregard that 2013 WoB (which was paraphrased to begin with) in favor of the newer ones.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Oversleep

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

No. If we go by properties of lerasium alloys (#1 #2 #3), lerasium-atium alloy makes one atium Misting.

This is far from clear from these WoBs. Which 16 metals are meant, for instance? The real basic ones, which would exclude atium, or the fudged ones? And it only makes sense to create Mistings with lerasium alloys if you need a fraction of a lerasium bead to achieve this. The fact that a lot still isn't known about atium is mentioned, too. What a 50 : 50 atium-lerasium alloy would do if burned is still very much up in the air.

Also, Sanderson refused to confirm that Hoid is a Mistborn, only that he is an Allomancer. Which suggests to me that he used most of the bead for some other purpose, though he still needed to be able burn 3 Allomantic metals to escape the cache and there is  strong evidence that he also used emotional Allomancy on Davars in WoR.

Quote

By the way, we know Hoid has unkeyed metalminds

If it is true that Hoid is trying to build connections to all the Shards, by obtaining their magics, then he needs to be at least a Ferring to connect to Ruin. There is no other way save hemalurgy, and medallions won't cut it, anymore than a fabrial would have provided him with sufficient connection to Honor and Cultivation.

And from what we have learned in BoM about the Sovereign apparently being a Fullborn and his somehow bestowing Feruchemy on Southern Scadrians requires for there to be a way to obtain Feruchemy other than by birth or hemalurgy. Because where would he have gotten F-Nicrosil spikes? No Inquisitor could have had one. So, there must exist some other method, albeit one that is severely limited, because Ferrings in the South are rare and no full Feruchemists other than the Sovereign himself ever lived there. This would fit the atium-lerasium alloy requirement.

IIRC, there is a WoB that 16 beads of lerasium may have originally existed, so 5-6 of them could have been left around somewhere after Hoid and Elend took theirs. IMHO, Kelsier tracked down a couple of them and made himself into a Fullborn, as well as changed a few select SoScads into Ferrings of the metals necessary to produce the heat medallions. He may have also  bestowed Inquisitor spikes on some others, to increase Metalborn numbers in the south in general, but it is doubtful that any of them would have had F-Brass - F-Nicrosil et al. would have been impossible.

P.S. Unkeyed metalminds can only be used by another Feruchemist/Ferring of that metal, as seen in BoM. So this WoB actually supports that Hoid is one.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Isilel

[Weltall]

@Isilel The terminology on metalminds and medallions hasn't been canonized yet and from context it's very clear that Brandon was being asked about metalminds that anyone can use, not the Identity-less ones that anyone with the right power can access (asking if Hoid has more of them, with the one being the coin he gave Wax) so you'd have to really twist things to get 'Hoid is a feruchemist' from that.

As far as making a Connection to Ruin goes in the absence of feruchemy or unwillingness to use hemalurgy goes, well, what is atium again and what does it do in Realmatic terms? xD

[Oversleep]

On 11.03.2018 at 8:54 PM, Weltall said:

@Isilel The terminology on metalminds and medallions hasn't been canonized yet and from context it's very clear that Brandon was being asked about metalminds that anyone can use, not the Identity-less ones that anyone with the right power can access

Oh, not at all. The terminology comes straight from Brandon, "unkeyed" from BoM, "unsealed" from this WoB:

Quote

WeiryWriter

For the Coppermind: What should we call the page about the Southerner medallions? (or: How would Khriss refer to them in an Ars Arcanum?)

Brandon Sanderson

Let's call them "unsealed metalminds" though Era 3 might use slang.

source

You cannot make this assumption about context then

[RShara]

I'm just here to chime in with WoBs, don't mind me.

On 3/11/2018 at 8:44 AM, Isilel said:

This is far from clear from these WoBs. Which 16 metals are meant, for instance? The real basic ones, which would exclude atium, or the fudged ones? And it only makes sense to create Mistings with lerasium alloys if you need a fraction of a lerasium bead to achieve this. The fact that a lot still isn't known about atium is mentioned, too. What a 50 : 50 atium-lerasium alloy would do if burned is still very much up in the air.

Quote

Questioner

I was also wondering if... I just finished reading the Ars Arcanum in the back of Bands of Mourning and I heard it mention that god metals could be alloyed to give different abilities or traits.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Could you give an example of one?

Brandon Sanderson

So, you could alloy lerasium with certain metals of the sixteen in the table and get, if you had just enough lerasium, it would make them a misting of those powers.

source

So certain metals of the 16 on the Allomancy table.  No comment on which specific ones.  And the amount of lerasium used is also important.

On 3/11/2018 at 8:44 AM, Isilel said:

IIRC, there is a WoB that 16 beads of lerasium may have originally existed, so 5-6 of them could have been left around somewhere after Hoid and Elend took theirs. IMHO, Kelsier tracked down a couple of them and made himself into a Fullborn, as well as changed a few select SoScads into Ferrings of the metals necessary to produce the heat medallions.

Quote

SageOfTheWise

Is there a reason why Rashek left a nugget of Lerasium at the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

He left several. It was, in his opinion, one of the best kept secrets and best protected locations in his empire.

Phantine

Were there originally 16 of them?

Mistborn

An excellent guess.

source

So he doesn't actually say that there were 16, just that it was an excellent guess.  Brandon Aes Sedai.

 

Quote

Questioner

Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself allomantic powers?

Brandon Sanderson

His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Questioner

And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It could not give powers other than allomancy.

Questioner

Because it’s lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right?

Brandon Sanderson

You have seen him use Allomancy…

Oversleep

Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>.

Brandon Sanderson

You have actually seen him use Allomancy.

Footnote: Brandon still refuses to say whether Hoid did burn lerasium
source

Brandon being cagey about whether Hoid burned the bead to become an Allomancy, but confirming that he used Allomancy.

 

 

[Weltall]

37 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Oh, not at all. The terminology comes straight from Brandon, "unkeyed" from BoM, "unsealed" from this WoB:

You cannot make this assumption about context then

<Activates the Surge of Nitpicking> Okay, you got me on the terminology coming from him. But... Brandon has admitted that his phrasing isn't always ideal when speaking off the cuff and the question about metalminds asks whether Hoid has more of them, when the only metalmind that we know he has was the unsealed coin (because Wax could use it) rather than an unkeyed one. So a response that Hoid has 'more' of something only makes sense in the former context of something we already know him to have. <Deactivates the Surge of Nitpicking>

So... we could probably argue ourselves in circles over this one. xD

Edited March 16, 2018 by Weltall