Steeldancer Posted March 6, 2018 Report Share Posted March 6, 2018 So I was thinking about my super awesome Spirit Web topic (seriously, go read it. It's in my signature. Some of my best theory work). In particular, I wanted to address the issues some people were bringing up with my idea of Adonalsiums origin. So, today I developed a proof of why it seems logical. Given: The Universe of the Cosmere started similar to our own, and dumped out matter, energy, and investiture into existence The Spirit Realm encompasses all perfect ideals Matter, Energy, and Investiture began to clump in the early universe, just like ours No intervention from a God Beyond Investiture, as it clumps, naturally creates sentience there was no other life at the beginning Therefore, Adonalsium would have formed as all the investiture clumped together- since there was nothing else to form spirit webs for. Furthermore, as the mind inhabiting the ultimate soul (A mind a soul, anyone?), Adonalsium would be the ultimate ideal being- God, for all intents and purposes, naturally created by the processes of the universe. His mind would arbitrarily form in the location of the Cosmere, explaining the localization of so much life. And as the ideal God, Adonalsium created things. More conditions, becoming more speculative: Adonalsium comprises essentially the entire Spirit Realm, with a truly infinite mind to control all investiture Life has a greater personal spirit web- that would no longer be a part of Adonalsium's web. Adonalsium's ideal nature forces it to create life Therefore, over time, Adonalsium would become smaller, and no longer comprise all investiture- becoming less idyllic, and maybe losing the infinite mind thing. An issue with this is that it is unclear how much life Adonalsium would have to have created to make a noticeable difference in it's personality. It is possible that while I am pretty sure this mechanic would occur under the assumptions I described, that the actual effect is trivial. However, it does bring to mind another thing- as it loses investiture, Adonalsium may have begun taking its drive to create life to an extreme degree, or even altered it in another way. However Adonalsium ended up in the spot that it did, it got to the point where it got shattered. Given that I think it was an infinite mind, it could see the future. It could see its own death. All it would have had to do was not create life. Or even not create those people who shattered it. Given that it didn't, its own perfect nature must have driven it to create life, no matter the consequences. This feels EXTREMELY likely to me in terms of the Cosmere. First off, it matches with the theme that Ideals aren't always perfect. It matches with the idea of Gods not being able to control their will. And also, the idea of a God that naturally forms- and dies- as a result of the laws of the universe seems extremely cool. It feels like the kind of narrative that would fit into the Cosmere. Finally, it would put to rest any idea of anyone reforming Adonalsium. According to this, Adonalsium formed from all investiture, and naturally had an infinite mind, making it able to control all investiture. A human mind is limited. That is why Shards are limited in power, their minds can only handle so much, even when amplified by investiture (even though making aspects might be a cheat around this, at the cost of having one mind). Therefore, Hoid cannot recreate Adonalsium. Investiture has interwoven itself into the Cosmere. Between the Shards, invested planets, and all the investiture going on, Investiture isn't going to clump into an Adonalsium again unless you kill all life. And I don't think that is Hoid's goal. I hope my logic makes sense, and that at least some of my speculation seems plausable. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tador Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 I would argue that instead of being forced to create life the laws of the universe would force Adonalsium to increase entropy, but the best/most efficient way to increase entropy is to create living beings. Or that to increase entropy Adonalsium made some planets which spawned life of there own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathrangking Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Steeldancer said: So I was thinking about my super awesome Spirit Web topic (seriously, go read it. It's in my signature. Some of my best theory work). In particular, I wanted to address the issues some people were bringing up with my idea of Adonalsiums origin. So, today I developed a proof of why it seems logical. Given: The Universe of the Cosmere started similar to our own, and dumped out matter, energy, and investiture into existence The Spirit Realm encompasses all perfect ideals Matter, Energy, and Investiture began to clump in the early universe, just like ours No intervention from a God Beyond Investiture, as it clumps, naturally creates sentience there was no other life at the beginning Therefore, Adonalsium would have formed as all the investiture clumped together- since there was nothing else to form spirit webs for. Furthermore, as the mind inhabiting the ultimate soul (A mind a soul, anyone?), Adonalsium would be the ultimate ideal being- God, for all intents and purposes, naturally created by the processes of the universe. His mind would arbitrarily form in the location of the Cosmere, explaining the localization of so much life. And as the ideal God, Adonalsium created things. More conditions, becoming more speculative: Adonalsium comprises essentially the entire Spirit Realm, with a truly infinite mind to control all investiture Life has a greater personal spirit web- that would no longer be a part of Adonalsium's web. Adonalsium's ideal nature forces it to create life Therefore, over time, Adonalsium would become smaller, and no longer comprise all investiture- becoming less idyllic, and maybe losing the infinite mind thing. An issue with this is that it is unclear how much life Adonalsium would have to have created to make a noticeable difference in it's personality. It is possible that while I am pretty sure this mechanic would occur under the assumptions I described, that the actual effect is trivial. However, it does bring to mind another thing- as it loses investiture, Adonalsium may have begun taking its drive to create life to an extreme degree, or even altered it in another way. However Adonalsium ended up in the spot that it did, it got to the point where it got shattered. Given that I think it was an infinite mind, it could see the future. It could see its own death. All it would have had to do was not create life. Or even not create those people who shattered it. Given that it didn't, its own perfect nature must have driven it to create life, no matter the consequences. This feels EXTREMELY likely to me in terms of the Cosmere. First off, it matches with the theme that Ideals aren't always perfect. It matches with the idea of Gods not being able to control their will. And also, the idea of a God that naturally forms- and dies- as a result of the laws of the universe seems extremely cool. It feels like the kind of narrative that would fit into the Cosmere. Finally, it would put to rest any idea of anyone reforming Adonalsium. According to this, Adonalsium formed from all investiture, and naturally had an infinite mind, making it able to control all investiture. A human mind is limited. That is why Shards are limited in power, their minds can only handle so much, even when amplified by investiture (even though making aspects might be a cheat around this, at the cost of having one mind). Therefore, Hoid cannot recreate Adonalsium. Investiture has interwoven itself into the Cosmere. Between the Shards, invested planets, and all the investiture going on, Investiture isn't going to clump into an Adonalsium again unless you kill all life. And I don't think that is Hoid's goal. I hope my logic makes sense, and that at least some of my speculation seems plausable. This theory certainly seems possible based on what we know about the nature of Investiture and shardic influence. If there was a shift in the mechanics of investiture post shattering then the creation of life portion requires more information before building a more solid theory. 1 hour ago, Tador said: I would argue that instead of being forced to create life the laws of the universe would force Adonalsium to increase entropy, but the best/most efficient way to increase entropy is to create living beings. Or that to increase entropy Adonalsium made some planets which spawned life of there own. This assumes that the laws physics within the cosmere are the same or at least similar to the laws of physics in the real world. @The One Who Connects thank you for setting me straight. In light of that then the nature of Adonalsium's creation of life becomes ever more likely as being the result of the universe's desire to create ever more entropy as @Tador suggested. Edited March 7, 2018 by Nathrangking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Nathrangking said: This assumes that the laws physics within the cosmere are the same or at least similar to the laws of physics in the real world. They are. Quote Kurkistan Are the laws of physics in the cosmere Spiritually-based? Brandon Sanderson The laws of physics in the cosmere are ours except where they have been changed by Spiritual influence. So I guess you could say yes. The biggest change is that it's now three building blocks: Matter, Energy, and Investiture. This lets Brandon get away with things that he normally wouldn't be able to, without entirely breaking the natural rules Quote Brandon Sanderson In the cosmere the magic is science. What I would call-- say is science fantasy because we've added to the Laws of Thermodynamics. We have this other thing called Investiture, which is what powers all the magic. Which is the souls of the things they call gods, their substance. And you can change matter or energy into Investiture and back. And so we've got a third circle in the old Laws of Thermodynamics and so because of that it's science fantasy. I would still call this fantasy because science fiction is where they go "We're going to take the Laws of Thermodynamics and try to explain what we can do using them" I'm like "No, we're just going to add to them, right?" But yeah that's where we're going. There will be a collision of that but it's really going to be-- To them it's indistinguishable, once you get far enough along, that it really is science. Edited March 7, 2018 by The One Who Connects 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelly Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 I like the idea of Adonalsium being natural investiture gaining self awareness and sentience over time. However, how would emotions and personality develop? Since Ado is eventually shattered into the Shards we know with their rather human characteristics, I would assume it had those traits beforehand. Would it have....mmm...."absorbed" these traits from the humans it had created? And if so, how did it create humans with these traits without understanding the traits to begin with? (Chicken/egg scenario) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, Zellyia said: I like the idea of Adonalsium being natural investiture gaining self awareness and sentience over time. However, how would emotions and personality develop? Since Ado is eventually shattered into the Shards we know with their rather human characteristics, I would assume it had those traits beforehand. Would it have....mmm...."absorbed" these traits from the humans it had created? And if so, how did it create humans with these traits without understanding the traits to begin with? (Chicken/egg scenario) I think emotions and personality would emerge with sapience. I mean Syl and Pattern definitely have personality, and they're bits of investiture that have gained sapience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Zellyia said: I like the idea of Adonalsium being natural investiture gaining self awareness and sentience over time. However, how would emotions and personality develop? Since Ado is eventually shattered into the Shards we know with their rather human characteristics, I would assume it had those traits beforehand. Would it have....mmm...."absorbed" these traits from the humans it had created? And if so, how did it create humans with these traits without understanding the traits to begin with? (Chicken/egg scenario) Humans could have this traits because they are an intimate parts of the being that create them...Like you said it's a chicken/egg scenario). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted March 8, 2018 Report Share Posted March 8, 2018 I think emotions and personality emerge from the fabric of the Cosmere, on an even deeper level than this theory. To be precise, I think they come from the very existence of the Three Realms, where anything that is connected through the Realms (meaning it has a Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual presence) needs to be connected in the Cognitive Realm (as the Cognitive Realm is what binds the Physical and Spiritual together), and the connection that goes through the Cognitive Realm automatically goes through different states, which form emotions once you get to complicated enough beings (like humans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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