[OB] Jaddeth of Shu-Dereth is a reference to Odium

[BillLangdon]

It’s been stated that prior to arriving in the Rosharan System, Odium paid a visit to Sel to check out the scenery, kill a couple of Gods, usual touristy stuff. By what I can gather, this happened quite some time before the Reod, and predates Shu-Keseg, the parent religion of Shu- Dereth, leaving a lot of time in the aftermath for the events of that interaction to fall into legend and myth. Brandon has also said that if you looked hard enough you could find the influence of Odium on Sel still.

During the events of Elantris, it is said that Jadeth is an old pagan God who cared for the stones, but Shu-Dereth thrust him into their mythology when it split from Shu-Keseg proper. Considering the connection between Odium and Stone in stormlight archive, this is at least plausible.

This isn’t to say that Shu-Dereth worships Odium directly, or that Dakhor Magic is of his power, as their religion and culture obviously fit better with Dominion. However, over time images of deities can shift and blend.

Add to this, that when Hrathen meets Dilaf, he is careful to note his PASSION and basically states that if one can use that passion to achieve the desired Dominion, then it would be a tool he would use carefully but willingly. Dilaf’s motives in the story are driven much more by hatred than domination, and so it makes me wonder about how deep the influence of Odium goes in Fjordell culture.

[Strifelover]

This an interesting theory, and I don't think we know enough about the events surrounding the splintering of Dominion and Devotion to really say yes or no. But we do know a few things about how investiture works without a vessel. Brandon has said that over time, investiture starts to gain sentience and Khriss says in AU that the land itself is becoming self-aware. So I believe that as the land in Fjordell becomes self-aware, seemingly godlike, it makes sense for them to ascribe to it an old God of the land.

Now in terms of Odium's influence, my theory is that Odium indirectly caused the earthquake that lead to the Reod. Here are a few things confirmed via WOB's that mak it seem plausible:

• The Earthquake was not caused by the splintering of Dominion and Devotion, it happened much later.
• Odium wanted to splinter Ambition first, but wasn't able to locate the Shard and ended up splintering Dom/Dev first.
• Ambition was mortally wounded near Threnody, but eventually was splintered elsewhere.
• Brandon has RAFO'd a question about whether the splintering of Ambition had an effect on Sel.
• Brandon has confirmed that the earthquake was due to unnatural causes.

So basically, Odium mortally wounds Ambition near Threnody, who subsequently travels nearby Sel where he finally splinters. The splintering causes the earthquake and all the subsequent events we see in Elantris. 

[The One Who Connects]

14 minutes ago, BillLangdon said:

it makes me wonder about how deep the influence of Odium goes in Fjordell culture.

Given Khriss' "human pre-history" comment, I'm half-tempted to say Fjordish Culture didn't exist when Odium visited.

15 minutes ago, BillLangdon said:

Add to this, that when Hrathen meets Dilaf, he is careful to note his PASSION and basically states that if one can use that passion to achieve the desired Dominion, then it would be a tool he would use carefully but willingly.

This is a conversation we've had on here before, but regarding how Shu-Dereth was also a fan of ambition(Thank you for bringing that up @Strifelover, even though I completely disagree with you ).
For what it's worth, your claim has a little more going for it Bill, but I'm hesitant to agree with you.

18 minutes ago, BillLangdon said:

During the events of Elantris, it is said that Jaddeth is an old pagan God who cared for the stones, but Shu-Dereth thrust him into their mythology when it split from Shu-Keseg proper. Considering the connection between Odium and Stone in stormlight archive, this is at least plausible.

This isn’t to say that Shu-Dereth worships Odium directly, or that Dakhor Magic is of his power, as their religion and culture obviously fit better with Dominion. However, over time images of deities can shift and blend.

Jaddeth is an interesting figure, with interesting lore surrounding him. I personally support a different narrative on Jaddeth:

Spoiler

On 8/21/2016 at 6:16 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Quote

Jaddeth is the name of the Derethi God. He is said to slumber in the earth, waiting for a time when the whole world worships him to return and rule the world.
Skaze: The Skaze were "evil Seons" and were related to Skai. They had a large amount of influence in the politics of Fjordell and strongly influenced the Dakhor.

Secondly, the connections that can be made:
1. Skaze -> Skai = Dominion
2. Skaze -> Shu-Dereth -> Jaddeth
3. Jaddeth -> Worship = Devotion?

Jaddeth will return when the whole world worships him.
This feels either (a) too easy to be right, or (b) blatant enough to get overlooked.

The origin of Jaddeth could be Odium, but given how influential the Skaze are in Derethi culture, I'm more of the opinion that they understand where their "god" is. Jaddeth slumbers in the earth, that very same earth that's gaining sentience because of the Dor, which is partially of Dominion.

There are a lot of different trains of thought that are "logical."

6 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

So basically, Odium mortally wounds Ambition near Threnody, who subsequently travels nearby Sel where he finally splinters. The splintering causes the earthquake and all the subsequent events we see in Elantris. 

The Events of Elantris(the book) are around the time period where TLR ascended. The quake(and Reod) are 10 years before the book. Odium has been trapped on Roshar for several millennia by that point. You are trying to say that Ambition took several thousand years to succumb to his "mortal" wounds?

[RShara]

I'm thinking Jaddeth has to do with Dominion, personally, though that's just an opinion.

 

@Strifelover  Sadly, the timeline doesn't fit for that theory.  Ambition and D&D were Splintered way long ago.  Remember that Odium's been trapped in the Roshar system for at least....6000? years? (4500 since Aharietiam, couple thousand years of Desolations before that).  Elantris is...not thousands of years before the events of MB Era 1, and that's about 300 years before TWoK.

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tisces

Do you keep a timeline for your Cosmere books? I'm assuming the events from books such as Elantris and Warbreaker happen before the Stormlight Archives but I'm curious about how much time has passed whether it is months/years/centuries.

Brandon Sanderson

Centuries have passed. I think we're closer to a thousand years covering events you could place on the line, with closer to ten thousand years since inciting incidents.

source

And Brandon's said that the Prelude to TWoK is the earliest event we've seen.  So Odium would already have been trapped.

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Yata

What is the event showed in the books, that are earlier in the Cosmere's Timeline ? (just to understand if WoK's prologue is before or after Elantris's event)

Brandon Sanderson

I believe WoK prologue is before everything else you've seen. Some of the Dalinar flashbacks show scenes pretty early as well.

source

 

[Strifelover]

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

 

@Strifelover  Sadly, the timeline doesn't fit for that theory.  Ambition and D&D were Splintered way long ago.  Remember that Odium's been trapped in the Roshar system for at least....6000? years? (4500 since Aharietiam, couple thousand years of Desolations before that).  Elantris is...not thousands of years before the events of MB Era 1, and that's about 300 years before TWoK.

And Brandon's said that the Prelude to TWoK is the earliest event we've seen.  So Odium would already have been trapped.

Hmm, well although it seems kind of silly for Ambition to be mortally wounded and dying for 6,000+ years, isn't that kind of what happened with Preservation. When Pres speaks with Kelsier in SH, he says he's already dead, that Ruin has already killed him. A Shard's death isn't necessarily a single event like a mortal's, but can be a very protracted event.

When he says that in SH, is he referring to something that Ruin has done during the course of that book, or is it resulting from their agreement and his betrayal? If it's the latter, wouldn't that mean he'd been dying for several thousand years, since each time the Well refills is a 1,024 years and Rashek isn't the first person to take up the power.

If I'm remembering SH incorrectly then fair enough, but if not and Preservation has been dying for thousands of years I don't think it's impossible that Ambition was dying for 6,000+ although it does seem pretty wacky.

[Weltall]

Brandon has stated that Wyrn follows Dominion, whether he knows it or not. Jaddeth is therefore not 'of Odium'.

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Viper (paraphrased)

Wyrn can see into the future... is he a follower of Dominion or of Odium? Cause Dominion is [Splintered], so...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Dominion.

source

Brandon has also said that Odium didn't leave behind any Splinters.

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sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

source

The mindless power he talks about is Devotion and Dominion's power, stuffed into the Cognitive. Jaddeth may well have bit of Devotion as well as Dominion (since all magic on Sel is described as regional variations of a single magic system and draws on their combined power) but he's definitely not of Odium.

34 minutes ago, BillLangdon said:

Add to this, that when Hrathen meets Dilaf, he is careful to note his PASSION and basically states that if one can use that passion to achieve the desired Dominion, then it would be a tool he would use carefully but willingly. Dilaf’s motives in the story are driven much more by hatred than domination, and so it makes me wonder about how deep the influence of Odium goes in Fjordell culture.

Just as a heads-up on this, Brandon has mentioned that he hadn't nailed down certain aspects of the Cosmere when he was working on Elantris. The pool for example was written because he needed to get Raoden in a position where he could see Elantris from above and make the connection between the geography, the Aons and the chasm line and he didn't have a place for it in the worldbuilding at that time. Since then it's become a very important cross-Cosmere element as an example of a Perpendicularity, but he didn't have that laid out back then. Elantris also predates Brandon establishing for himself the concept of the Shards; the first work where he seems to have nailed that idea down was the unpublished Aether of Night, which postdates Elantris. So any references to Passion are a conicidence, not foreshadowing Odium; For all intents and purposes Odium didn't exist yet.

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

Hmm, well although it seems kind of silly for Ambition to be mortally wounded and dying for 6,000+ years, isn't that kind of what happened with Preservation. When Pres speaks with Kelsier in SH, he says he's already dead, that Ruin has already killed him. A Shard's death isn't necessarily a single event like a mortal's, but can be a very protracted event.

When he says that in SH, is he referring to something that Ruin has done during the course of that book, or is it resulting from their agreement and his betrayal? If it's the latter, wouldn't that mean he'd been dying for several thousand years, since each time the Well refills is a 1,024 years and Rashek isn't the first person to take up the power.

If I'm remembering SH incorrectly then fair enough, but if not and Preservation has been dying for thousands of years I don't think it's impossible that Ambition was dying for 6,000+ although it does seem pretty wacky.

It can definitely be a protracted event, but didn't Brandon say that there was a death blow?  And yeah, 6000+ years is a bit much for a death. 

Preservation took extra long because he sacrificed his mind for the prison, and little bits of his power for humans.  So dying over many small degrees rather than a "death blow" imo.

[Strifelover]

8 minutes ago, RShara said:

It can definitely be a protracted event, but didn't Brandon say that there was a death blow?  And yeah, 6000+ years is a bit much for a death. 

Preservation took extra long because he sacrificed his mind for the prison, and little bits of his power for humans.  So dying over many small degrees rather than a "death blow" imo.

He said that Odium mortally wounded Ambition in the Threnodite system, but that he splintered elsewhere. I feel like we'll just get overly semantic if we start discussing what a death blow is, and any sort of timing implied by any of this. Clearly it wasn't an immediate wound to splinter, anything else is pretty speculative. 

As much as I want to hold onto my theory, 6,000 years for Ambition to be mortally wounded until he finally dies just seems like bad storytelling. I'm curious, what are the leading theories for what DID cause the earthquake? A particularly wild game of stones with Raoden's brother?

[Wandering Investor]

It should be noted that Preservation's death blow was dealt by himself in a sacrifice. and his actual death only occurred after Ruin was released and began putting destructive pressure on the last wisp of Preservation's vessel. Without Ruin he might have kept on as he was. 

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

I'm curious, what are the leading theories for what DID cause the earthquake?

The Spiritual Realm doesn't deal with space constraints. The Cognitive Realm does.

Sel's CR is "full to bursting" with a maelstrom of energy from not one, but two Shards. That's a lot of pressure on the system. The opposing Intents just put more pressure on the system.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Can you describe what Shadesmar looks like on either Nalthis or Sel.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yeah. On Sel? Looks like a big old storm that will destroy you. More than a storm, it's like a big pressurized-- it's like plasma, almost. It is really dangerous. Really dangerous. That 'cause the Dor is hanging out there.

There aren't enough Seons/Skaze , so there's too much power in that confined space. That pressurized power needs a way out, and it doesn't have one.

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Windrunner
If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson
No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

---

Brandon Sanderson
If you were wondering, most of the explanations we get in this chapter are true. The reason that Raoden was subject to the Dor attacks was because he spent so much time practicing with the Aons. He began to make a bridge between this world and the Dor, and because of that, he gave the Dor a slight opening into his soul. I imagine that he isn't the first one to suffer something like this during the ten years that Elantris has been fallen. Other Elantrians probably practiced with the Aons, and the Dor eventually destroyed them. When it was done, they simply became Hoed.

By finally using the Dor effectively, Raoden relieved a little bit of the pressure, letting the nearby buildup of the Dor (the one that he himself had created by practicing so much) rip through him and fuel that single Aon.

To quote Camila: "Something's gotta give"

[Strifelover]

9 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

It should be noted that Preservation's death blow was dealt by himself in a sacrifice. and his actual death only occurred after Ruin was released and began putting destructive pressure on the last wisp of Preservation's vessel. Without Ruin he might have kept on as he was. 

Is there a WOB or something that says that? I do agree that Shardic suicide vs. homicide could totally result in a different dying process, but it sure seemed like Preservation was rapidly deteriorating before Ruin was released from the Well. When Kelsier first arrives in the Cognitive Realm 'Fuzz' looks pretty normal, but over the course of the year or so that Kelsier is trapped in the Well he looks much worse. It's from in the Well that Kelsier notes that half his face is missing, and that he's started raving and stopped making sense. That to me seems like Preservation was quickly on his way out whether Ruin escaped the Well or not. 

[BillLangdon]

42 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Brandon has stated that Wyrn follows Dominion, whether he knows it or not. Jaddeth is therefore not 'of Odium'.

If Wyrn follows Doninion, and the thought he could use a pagan god as a figurehead to gain followers, i’d Say that falls pretty in line with Dominion’s intent.

Aso, @Weltall, I’m not sure you and I have the same opinion on the nature of Jaddeth. You seem to think that I was claiming Jaddeth is an actual God, or a splinter of Odium. I am not saying that, I don’t actually think Jaddeth is anything more than an old legend that’s been twisted by Derethi leadership to provide followers with a scary figurehead. I just postulate that said scary legend, is in fact inspired by times when Odium actually was on Sel, and the story has been passed down until it was used as a tool for Dominion followers, like Wyrn and the Skaze.

 

 

[Strifelover]

4 minutes ago, BillLangdon said:

Aso, @Weltall, I’m not sure you and I have the same opinion on the nature of Jaddeth. You seem to think that I was claiming Jaddeth is an actual God, or a splinter of Odium. I am not saying that, I don’t actually think Jaddeth is anything more than an old legend that’s been twisted by Derethi leadership to provide followers with a scary figurehead. I just postulate that said scary legend, is in fact inspired by times when Odium actually was on Sel, and the story has been passed down until it was used as a tool for Dominion followers, like Wyrn and the Skaze.

I think that Jaddeth is similar-ish to Autonomy co-opting Trell / Trelagism on Scadrial, although with a little more direct relevance. Sarene tells us that Jaddeth was an old Pagan god of the earth, and we also know that the land on Sel is starting to gain sentience. I think that part of Dominion's investiture that is located over in Fjordell gained sentience and since it's of Dominion wanted to go and dominate other lands. Or taken another way, its intent is to make everything part of its dominion. 

It cleverly used the old god of land/stone, as a way to immediately establish credibility and turn the people of Fjordell into religious zealots. So I agree that Jaddeth is probably just an old legend, but one that a now-sentient splinter of Dominion is using for its own agenda. 

[Wandering Investor]

1 hour ago, Strifelover said:

Is there a WOB or something that says that? I do agree that Shardic suicide vs. homicide could totally result in a different dying process, but it sure seemed like Preservation was rapidly deteriorating before Ruin was released from the Well. When Kelsier first arrives in the Cognitive Realm 'Fuzz' looks pretty normal, but over the course of the year or so that Kelsier is trapped in the Well he looks much worse. It's from in the Well that Kelsier notes that half his face is missing, and that he's started raving and stopped making sense. That to me seems like Preservation was quickly on his way out whether Ruin escaped the Well or not. 

True. That coincides with the death of the Lord Ruler. Perhaps he was sustaining Preservation, or maybe Ruin shifted focus from the LR to Fuzz after the death. Or narratively, that's just when Fuzz was gonna die one way or another.

 

And also no, I do not know of a WoB stating that, just observations. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Wandering Investor