Robinski - 180305 - TCC Chapter 2 - 4755 words (LSr)

[Robinski]

Hey folks,

So, this Chapter 2 is substantially revised, with new material, but also some you've seen before but in a different place. I'm hoping this addresses the issue of conveying what is going on at an earlier stage. Previously, there was a sort of sequel to the opening action of closing the art theft case. I'm hoping this is much better at ramping up the tension.

Thanks for your consideration.

<R>

[mrwizard70]

If you could email me chapter 1 so I can catch up, that would be optimal;

Here’s my thoughts without that. 

This is grimderp. I am being hit over the head with “things are bad, world is evil” if that’s the intention, and you aren’t planning to subvert it later, you could either tone it down, or show it. Show don’t tell is cliche, but it would help a lot here. This might have something to do with the individual character being a pessimist, and if so it might be best to show that the pessimism extends beyond just the state of the world. 

Exposition on dump is exposition dump, but I like the way you’ve couched it in both romance and potential danger, really well done there. 

I’m used to a main character, but in a story like this not having one makes it more fun. Other then the token “deploying the army to stay in power sounds bad” I have no idea whose side I’m supposed to be on. If that is intentional, well done. If not, maybe make the morals a bit clearer. My mental list says only Glenda is moderately not evil, but moral corruption and sexual escapades are hard to justify right off the bat. 

Trademarks in the middle of the writing are annoying and serve no purpose. 

Chacter conflict is well developed and interesting, but I’ve yet to find the primary conflict because I can’t decided whose side I’m on. 

Morton’s line “wouldn’t want to schedule that now would we” is missing we. 

Forsythe is a strange and concerning name, but again, if he’s evil, it’s a bit on the nose. 

That’s all I got. 

[kais]

Overall

Reasonable arc in this version, although I think it could be a little stronger. My main concern with it right now is how many POVs there are. I was confused with all the names being thrown at me, and think I'd need to read the chapter several times to remember or figure out how the stuff at the beginning tied into the stuff at the back. I'd suggest one, maybe two POVs, and see if you can deliver all the material through them. Maybe overhearing phone calls? Stolen videos from computers?

But much improved! If you are making a lesbian love triangle, I am down for it. It's a rare thing, especially outside lesfic.

As I go

- I know I harp on this a lot, so I won't go into the 'let us have a few chapters with one POV before switching' again. I am grumpy to not have a follow up to the excellent first chapter, because I loved it so much, and I want more!!

- page four: blink blink. Ah yes, the ole washroom. Okay, you have my attention again.

- page five: In the pejorative use of the word, it's 'dyke,' not 'dike'. But of course, now proudly reclaimed.

- page seven: ah, I was wondering which of the options you'd take on the rewrite of the blowjob. Very nice. I approve.

- page eight: are you... are you setting up a lesbian love triangle in this chapter? I most definitely did not see that coming

- page eight: urp though, on the 'deciding to be bi'. You don't 'decide to be straight,' so likewise you don't just decide queerness, either. Unless you're trying to point out that she's not really queer. Better phrasing: decided to embrace being bi, decided to experiment with women, decided to ignore labels and bang whatever she wanted, etc.

- page ten: reminder, Latin goes in italics for genus and species names

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by kais

[Mandamon]

Agree with @kais that all the POVs at the beginning are a bit confusing. You could potentially combine M's side of the phone call with the first section, or bring out his creepiness even more in the chapter.

I'm also sort of missing Q&M since we've only had them for one chapter. Was this originally chapter 3 or 4? Maybe you could keep a short Q&M sequel after the first chapter before we get to this?

 

Notes while reading:
First section - interesting. This is a new threat.

Second section - A better setup for G., but I'm not sure of the importance of the second call. I was expecting some more substance.

Third section - Still not completely sure what's going on. I assume M is sent to kill E?

pg 9: "Oh well, maybe that would help when she took G.’s job as Genextric’s CSO"
--So both have plans on each other...

pg 9: "How bad can this be..."
--a bit of maid and butler here.

pg 11: "Mangetout"
--had to google this one to find out why it was funny.

pg 13: yep, those velocoraptors are still creepy.

pg 15: "security advisor "
--ahhh, that's who M. is. I was trying to figure it out. Might want to mention this further up.

pg 16: "They shared an interest in history that, in the outside world, was declining now that they didn’t teach it in grade school"
--that's terrible.

pg 17: ends on a very ominous note, with something so much worse than the other horrors. I wouldn't mind just a smidge more information, or at least a few more of M.'s thoughts about the last habitat. I feel like there's so little I may actually end up forgetting about it for now.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Mandamon

[Asmodemon]

E.: I liked the changes you made to E.’s POV compared to the previous iteration. The fact that she has feelings for T., rather than just being in it to manipulate her way to the top further, makes her more sympathetic.

 

Multiple POVs: I’m not so sure about the other additions in this version of the chapter. There are a lot of perspectives here that are only there for a flash and just scream that this is for intrigue’s sake, that something nefarious is going on. It lacks subtlety in my opinion.

Additionally, this comes on the heels of chapter one, where we’re already introduced to two POVs, M. and Q.. With how short each of these segments are I think having so many perspectives this early is overkill.    

 

Flashback: The time difference between this chapter and the previous one is two days, which is not a lot at all. I’ve said before that flashbacks are a pet-peeve of mine, especially this early in the story. It’s only chapter two and we’re already skipping all over the place timeline-wise. We’re also getting new characters to boot. It feels a bit much and disjointed from what happened in chapter one.

I also wonder if the flashback is necessary at all. Couldn’t you have chapter two happen at the same time as chapter one (removing the flashback portion of ‘two days ago’), and have Q. and M. look for a new job two days later (when all the nefarious business has gone down with G. company)? Hell you could even have them look into another offer first, have them refuse it, and then when they look for an alternative R.’s job pops on the radar.  

[industrialistDragon]

Over all, while I like the changes to E's part of this chapter and the addition of G, I agree with the others that this many POVs barely two chapters into the story feels overwhelming. I feel like there wasn't much purpose to the PM's scene that wasn't also mostly covered by G's phone call. 

 

As I go:

I am fine with this "2 days earlier" heading because this is a chapter 2 and we've already had one chapter to establish the "start" of a timeline. However, I've also have a week and some space between the two chapters. I can't say for certain if I'd be as sanguine about the second time heading in a row just two chapters in if I'd read them back-to-back, plus, like @Asmodemon noted, 48 hours isn't really that long...

 

I am instantly skeptical of this kind of  "Wag the Dog" type of scenario. It reminds me too much of goofy conspiracy theories and I find it difficult to believe.  (I love the movie though, and political machinations in general. It's just the whole fake news/false flag/crisis actors conspiracy aspect that has me looking at it askant. Like, really, they're going to manufacture a crisis to cover up something and 1) be competent enough to pull it off, and 2) realistically believe it'll be kept secret? I just don't buy it.)

I like the addition of G's POV, but I'm feeling a bit of POV overload in this chapter. I'm not sure the PM's office scene is really necessary, and I think i'd kind of dig starting with G's POV then moving to E's. 

 

Nanobots! hee! I am, of course, totally here for nanobots.

...but the C4 still seems like overkill. 

The rest of it plays out about the same for me. 

 

[Robinski]

I see lots of great comments here, thank you everyone. I will get onto responding individually tomorrow, but as for now it's 23:52 and I'm zonked. Night, night.....

Zzzzzzzzz.

[Robinski]

Hey Wizard, thanks so much for picking up Chapter 2, some people wouldn't do that, much appreciated. I have sent Chp1, but starting in this particular Chp2 or Book 2 probably was never going to end well  

Anywho, to your comments: I hear what you say about the negativity. I'll canvas all of the reactions before making a decision, but I'm certainly willing to accept your point about show don't tell. There are a lot of thread here, of course, maybe too many, and perhaps because of that I felt the need to just spell it all out and get past it. Let's see how the demographics pan out  

What the heck is grimderp? Wait, whoa, what? I just learned the word 'indefeasible' too - thank you!

On 05/03/2018 at 7:00 PM, mrwizard70 said:

I’m used to a main character, but in a story like this not having one makes it more fun.

Well, there are two, essentially, as you'll gather if you take a dip into Chapter 1, but your reaction to the format of this chapter is very interesting. I will take the impression of uncertain motivations as a plus for this particular chapter. 

On 05/03/2018 at 7:00 PM, mrwizard70 said:

Trademarks in the middle of the writing are annoying and serve no purpose.

I take your point, and you may be interested to know that Book 1 was littered with trademarks, 99% of which are removed, apart from those attached got the androids. I'm going to keep this 'one' until a publisher, agent or editor tells me to remove it. I will concede though that it has very much been done.

On 05/03/2018 at 7:00 PM, mrwizard70 said:

Chacter conflict is well developed and interesting, but I’ve yet to find the primary conflict because I can’t decided whose side I’m on.

I will grab this with both hands and make a run for Chapter 3, thanks!  

On 05/03/2018 at 7:00 PM, mrwizard70 said:

Forsythe is a strange and concerning name, but again, if he’s evil, it’s a bit on the nose. 

Hmm, I'm interested in why that is. Are you familiar with the name, or does your concern come from a very direct reaction to the sound of the name?

On 05/03/2018 at 7:00 PM, mrwizard70 said:

That’s all I got.

This is all really helpful. Thank you again for reading!

[Robinski]

Hey Kais, thank you for reading given how very busy (even busier than unusual!!!) you are at the moment. Very much appreciated.

On 06/03/2018 at 4:11 AM, kais said:

My main concern with it right now is how many POVs there are.

Yeah, I didn't think I'd get away with that  I'll think on it. Thanks for the suggestion.

On 06/03/2018 at 4:11 AM, kais said:

If you are making a lesbian love triangle, I am down for it. It's a rare thing, especially outside lesfic.

I did not have it in mind specifically in getting to this point, but it'n not impossible that G could have a further part to play.

On 06/03/2018 at 4:11 AM, kais said:

I am grumpy to not have a follow up to the excellent first chapter

Yeah, I reordered the chapters in order to get into the plot sooner, but this is the downside. I could easily enough switch this with the sequel to Chapter 1, but it does push the plot further back. Another point to mull upon.

On 06/03/2018 at 4:11 AM, kais said:

urp though, on the 'deciding to be bi'

I'm indebted to you for tackling these elements, and totally happy to accept that I'm stumbling around for the right balance in an area I am almost completely ignorant of  

My intention was that E was (is?) willing to do what was necessary to get the job, and thought it profoundly illogical that she would limit that approach arbitrarily to the male of the species. Is she using the logic to deny something about herself? Perhaps. But the way she saw it at the time, and still sees it now, is that she was doing whatever is necessary to get ahead, unlimited by what she perceives to be her default sexuality. As I say, I may be way off base here, and really appreciate your comments on this.

Fantastic comments. Thank you so much  

[Robinski]

Great comments, Mandamon, thank you.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

POVs at the beginning are a bit confusing. You could potentially combine M's side of the phone call with the first section

Yeah. I will reconsider this.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

I'm also sort of missing Q&M since we've only had them for one chapter. Was this originally chapter 3 or 4?

Yes, it's a combo of a couple of later chapters. I may push this back one in favour of the previous sequel chapter.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

A better setup for G., but I'm not sure of the importance of the second call.

I've added a bit to this. Thanks.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

Still not completely sure what's going on. I assume M is sent to kill E?

And to this. That's not the game, and Chapter 4 clarifies, which probably is another good reason to slide this back to Chapter 3.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

a bit of maid and butler here

Totally agree. I've improved it a bit, but there is still some telling. I'll take a further pass next time around.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

ahhh, that's who M.... Might want to mention this further up.

Done, thanks.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

that's terrible

I know, right? I think it might actually be too scary! Might have to soften it.

On 06/03/2018 at 7:20 PM, Mandamon said:

I wouldn't mind just a smidge more information, or at least a few more of M.'s thoughts about the last habitat. I feel like there's so little I may actually end up forgetting about it for now.

Intersting. Done! There now are a couple more hints, in EM's thoughts.

Thanks again, so very helpful. Some really useful edits there  

[mrwizard70]

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

Hey Wizard, thanks so much for picking up Chapter 2, some people wouldn't do that, much appreciated. I have sent Chp1, but starting in this particular Chp2 or Book 2 probably was never going to end well  

Anywho, to your comments: I hear what you say about the negativity. I'll canvas all of the reactions before making a decision, but I'm certainly willing to accept your point about show don't tell. There are a lot of thread here, of course, maybe too many, and perhaps because of that I felt the need to just spell it all out and get past it. Let's see how the demographics pan out  

What the heck is grimderp? Wait, whoa, what? I just learned the word 'indefeasible' too - thank you!

Well, there are two, essentially, as you'll gather if you take a dip into Chapter 1, but your reaction to the format of this chapter is very interesting. I will take the impression of uncertain motivations as a plus for this particular chapter. 

I take your point, and you may be interested to know that Book 1 was littered with trademarks, 99% of which are removed, apart from those attached got the androids. I'm going to keep this 'one' until a publisher, agent or editor tells me to remove it. I will concede though that it has very much been done.

I will grab this with both hands and make a run for Chapter 3, thanks!  

Hmm, I'm interested in why that is. Are you familiar with the name, or does your concern come from a very direct reaction to the sound of the name?

This is all really helpful. Thank you again for reading!

Grimderp, easier to link then copy paste: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=8pxpjezko87a3carsbkepm2h

This is a trope much more in the land of web fiction and fanfiction than in the world of real books, but it applies. 

I am a very wordy person, glad to have helped you. 

As to the Forsythe thing; Good Guys don't use scythes. For (preknowledge etc) combined with the most evil weapon in the history of mankind. 

 

 

[Robinski]

1 hour ago, mrwizard70 said:

As to the Forsythe thing; Good Guys don't use scythes. For (preknowledge etc) combined with the most evil weapon in the history of mankind.

Uh-huh. Cool. I'll review the whole thing on the next edit. Thanks for the redirect.

[Robinski]

Hey Asmodemon, thank you so much for reading. Very much appreciated.

On 06/03/2018 at 9:32 PM, Asmodemon said:

I liked the changes you made to E.’s POV... ...makes her more sympathetic.

That's great. Nice to be heading in the right direction  

On 06/03/2018 at 9:32 PM, Asmodemon said:

There are a lot of perspectives here... scream that this is for intrigue’s sake... It lacks subtlety in my opinion.

Yeah, perhaps I have overreacted to concerns about the lack of plot. I may reinstate Chapter 3 (Monday's submission) as Chapter 2, as it was before but perhaps retain an interlude between them. Hmm, not sure. Will mull upon it.

On 06/03/2018 at 9:32 PM, Asmodemon said:

I think having so many perspectives this early is overkill.

Noted. I may try to break them up through the first few chapters more, perhaps using them as interludes.

On 06/03/2018 at 9:32 PM, Asmodemon said:

...flashbacks are a pet-peeve of mine, especially this early in the story. ...feels a bit much and disjointed from what happened in chapter one.

I also wonder if the flashback is necessary at all. Couldn’t you have chapter two happen at the same time as chapter one (removing the flashback portion of ‘two days ago’), and have Q. and M. look for a new job two days later (when all the nefarious business has gone down with G. company)? Hell you could even have them look into another offer first, have them refuse it, and then when they look for an alternative R.’s job pops on the radar.

Much to ponder. Thank you!

[Robinski]

Hey ID, thank you so much for reading. Sorry about the delay getting back on the comments.

On 08/03/2018 at 0:35 AM, industrialistDragon said:

Over all, while I like the changes to E's part of this chapter and the addition of G, I agree with the others that this many POVs barely two chapters into the story feels overwhelming. I feel like there wasn't much purpose to the PM's scene that wasn't also mostly covered by G's phone call. 

Okay, that's good. I'll consider the PM scene again.

On 08/03/2018 at 0:35 AM, industrialistDragon said:

I am fine with this "2 days earlier" heading because this is a chapter 2 and we've already had one chapter to establish the "start" of a timeline. However, I've also have a week and some space between the two chapters. I can't say for certain if I'd be as sanguine about the second time heading in a row just two chapters in if I'd read them back-to-back, plus, like @Asmodemon noted, 48 hours isn't really that long...

Hmm, okay. I will reconsider these headers. I think what I will do is leave them in just now, get through the whole book, and see where I'm left on an alpha read. The time lines will come together before too terribly long, I think!!

On 08/03/2018 at 0:35 AM, industrialistDragon said:

I am instantly skeptical of this kind of  "Wag the Dog" type of scenario. It reminds me too much of goofy conspiracy theories and I find it difficult to believe.  (I love the movie though, and political machinations in general. It's just the whole fake news/false flag/crisis actors conspiracy aspect that has me looking at it askant. Like, really, they're going to manufacture a crisis to cover up something and 1) be competent enough to pull it off, and 2) realistically believe it'll be kept secret? I just don't buy it.)

Fair enough. I think maybe you're the only one not convinced on this aspect at the moment, so I'll let it ride for the moment  

On 08/03/2018 at 0:35 AM, industrialistDragon said:

I like the addition of G's POV, but I'm feeling a bit of POV overload in this chapter. I'm not sure the PM's office scene is really necessary, and I think i'd kind of dig starting with G's POV then moving to E's.

See above, but duly noted. Thanks.

On 08/03/2018 at 0:35 AM, industrialistDragon said:

Nanobots! hee! I am, of course, totally here for nanobots.    ...but the C4 still seems like overkill. 

Noted.

Thank you so much for those comments, very helpful  

[Majestic Fox]

This is well written, and once again there are some great moments in this chapter. My overwhelming response was What? Where's Q and M? Bring them back immediately. 

Moment by moment:

• Kind of odd that F withholds info from the P info 'You'll know when the time comes.' 
• By page 4 I'm really wondering what all this has to do with the Q and M stuff I read before. Partly because the tone feels different. This is a bit more like House of Cards or something. 
• She wondered, as she had begun to do more often now, how she had lost her independence, her ethics, her pride. Now I'm interested. 
• P5.... the rapid dialogue is pulling me along nicely. 
• I'm skimming over the time/date/location things now....hope there's not critical information nestled in here
• He really would have enjoyed boning her; he was sure of it.  Hahah, I like it. This kind of directness is refreshing to read, and gives the prose attitude 
• He only had to mouth the word... Wow, that's kind of surreal. Unnerving. 
• The fact he's a century plus old is good / realistic for this near future stuff...not super unique but makes me trust the writer a bit more
• P7... Man, I need me some Q...
• Tania had a habit of mussing it up when they… negotiated over the energy budget  hahaha! 
• Niflheim eh? Hope that norse mythology will be interlaced into the story in some profound, intelligent way (but that's just my preference..)
• P8 'Dammit'  - Felt odd...to abrupt and forceful with the close third limited. 
• Nordic cheekbones - haha
• P8 some pithy writing here...enjoying the last para (but don't let that stop you from replacing it all with Q browsing a worsted magazine)
• P9 - I feel mild interest, mostly pulled along by the good writing
• So pronounced were the tops of their spines that the bony ridge stretched the sick-looking hide - Good description.  The bit before helps me imagine them in situ...in their surroundings... The three remaining examples of Doctor Terjesen’s spotted hyena / bull shark concoction had calmed now, and sulked on the other side of the glass, snapping idly in their direction and occasionally at each other  ..  I think this is a good method...to tether the subjects into the surrounding environment before going into more fine-grain description. Good work. 
• Because what did you do if you did not possess a handy block of amber holding a Cretaceous mosquito conveniently imbued with the DNA of a vel. Haha, but isn't this breaking your close third limited pov for the sake of humour? Jurassic Park can't be that timeless can it? 
• Tania practically swayed in time with the velociraptors’ measured movements as they regarded the humans. This is engaging. Good example of 'showing', in contrast to 'telling' in the paras above, which were less good.
• that natty little unit packing some clever wireless tech and a shot glass-worth of C4 - Haha
• He seemed to be trying a nonchalant half-smile, but only managed serial-killer feigned amiability. Brilliant. This is a really effective and creative way of communicating the character's physical reaction. It's funny and clever, and in POV. Great job. 
• The loss gave Eve a hollow, melancholic feeling in her gut that she had come to enjoy along with a glass of Scotch and Tania curled up next to her, their ice cubes tinkling in time. Yes. More brilliance. Just keep being brilliant. 

In summary, great writing but give me Q and M back.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Majestic Fox

[Robinski]

Hey Fox, thank you for these comments, very helpful. Can I be pain (and I think we've established that I can) and ask you to edit the names out, please? Ta!

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

Where's Q and M? Bring them back immediately.

Excellent! I've since switched Chps 2 and 3, so this one follows the intro, just to bed the reader down in Q and M antics before the multi-pop extravaganza.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

Kind of odd that F withholds info from the P info 'You'll know when the time comes.'

Yeah. I was trying to avoid F incriminating himself.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

This is a bit more like House of Cards or something. 

Awesome, I'll take that, which I take to mean darker. This, generally, was the pattern of the first book, I would say, so I'll proceed with caution.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

the rapid dialogue is pulling me along nicely.

Excellent. I'm essentially trying to get through this bit as quickly as possible, so your reaction so far is ideal. Not entirely shared by all though.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

I'm skimming over the time/date/location things now

Not unsurprising. Maybe they will be cut from all but the chapter start, although there is relevant stuff because there people are in different places. That said, it's not critical.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

gives the prose attitude

Awesome. This tone would suit M, although some are finding him a bit moustache-twirling, I think. I'll try to refine it a bit so he's just a sociopathic mufu.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

surreal. Unnerving.

Perfect. that's my first cover quote 

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

Man, I need me some Q...

Cool. It's coming.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

Hope that norse mythology will be interlaced into the story in some profound, intelligent way

Hmm, or it might just be a cool project name that T chose. I'll think, about that  

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

'Dammit'  - Felt odd...

Fair comment. I've cut it, not least because it's actually Q's word.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

(but don't let that stop you from replacing it all with Quirk browsing a worsted magazine)

:rofl:

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

Haha, but isn't this breaking your close third limited pov for the sake of humour?

Probably, but I don't care, dammit! (I knew I'd be able to paste that in somewhere. Waste not, want not.)

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

'telling' in the paras above, which were less good.

Yeah, that's a downside of some of this stuff. I'll try to thin it out in the edit.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

C4

...for all your decapitation needs.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

It's funny and clever, and in POV.

Come on, man--I can't give you all the cover quotes   You're very kind; this really is my holy trinity.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:06 PM, Majestic Fox said:

give me Q and M back.

Yes, suh! My problem now is that I'm totally unsure whether to order these chapters 1,2,3 and 1,3,2. I'll see what reaction I get when I submit Chapter 4.

Thanks so much, Fox. I'm so glad this jumble of POVs worked for you  

 

[Majestic Fox]

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

Probably, but I don't care, dammit! (I knew I'd be able to paste that in somewhere. Waste not, want not.)

Haha! That's funny. 

 

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

Can I be pain (and I think we've established that I can) and ask you to edit the names out, please? Ta!

Ahh, sorry! Sorted now. It's the characters names - they're just so typeable.

 

 

 

 

[Robinski]

5 hours ago, Majestic Fox said:

Haha! That's funny.

MS Word humour, jeez I'm getting desperate.

5 hours ago, Majestic Fox said:

Ahh, sorry! Sorted now. It's the characters names - they're just so typeable.

Thank you!