[OB Spoilers] Is Voidbinding just a form of fabrial science?

[Yata]

17 hours ago, LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian said:

@Yata IMO one of the surges of Voidbinding is only accessible to Odium, (and maybe his version of the Stormfather), likely Division, which is why the number nine is so commonly associated with his followers.

Yelig-Nar could already manipulate all the 10 Surges.

By the way I believe the missing Fused's Surge is Adhesion 

[Leyrann]

14 minutes ago, Yata said:

Yelig-Nar could already manipulate all the 10 Surges.

By the way I believe the missing Fused's Surge is Adhesion 

Why Adhesion?

[Confused]

A Personal Note

When I question other posters’ opinions, it’s to TEST both my opinions and theirs. I’m trying to find “cosmere truth.” To me, how the cosmere works is knowable; it has “unified laws.” Those laws underlie and inform Brandon’s grand narrative.

I change my theories often to incorporate new or overlooked information and your many good ideas. I theorize like a windup bumper toy moves – I hit a wall and change direction. If I first try to ram through the wall and test its hardness, I hope you don’t take it personally. And I hope you continue to justify your views, even if I continue to debate your reasoning.

What Distinguishes Magic Systems?

@Calderis, your post concludes magic systems differ not only in how magic users gain their magic, but also how they express Shard power. ( I also once thought this.) I now believe magic systems differ only in “the WAY the magic is obtained.” I think your Metallic Arts example supports this view:

On 3/3/2018 at 6:26 PM, Calderis said:

You won't have two identical sets of powers just accessed in different means. 

Mistborn spoilers. 

  Hide contents

That WoB is saying that Allomancy is gained through Preservation's power "preserving" the user, but that the individual powers are not shaped or constrained by Preservation's intent. 

Just as Preservation's system is Allomancy, and Ruin's system is hemalurgy, the means of access are both different, but so are the things the individual systems do. 

 

IMO, Marsh (or any Inquisitor) does exactly what Kelsier and Sazed do and uses the exact same powers. The only difference is how Marsh gets his powers – by Hemalurgy, not inheritance. Isn’t that an example of “two identical sets of powers just accessed in different means”? 

On 3/3/2018 at 6:26 PM, Calderis said:

Voidbinding is a separate system, just like fabrials are. Fabrials also manipulate surges, and yes they can mimic aspects of surgebinding. I think they'll also be able to mimic aspects of Voidbinding, as well as do things that neither can as they are particularly specialized in their applications. 

According to that WoB, Voidbinding will be access through some means of Odium, but it's powers will not be limited to Odium's intent in application. 

I don't believe for a moment though that the system is the exact same powers.

“Surges” are a cultural interpretation of Shard power (Khriss). Roshar’s humans limit the Surges to the Honorblade powers, and Radiant spren personify those powers. Singers personify emotions and natural forces as pre-Shattering spren like lifespren, firespren, and gravityspren; and personify “forms of power” as voidspren.

I think a skyeel, a Fused, and a Windrunner all “fly” by binding the gravity Surge to change gravity’s direction. I think the only difference among them is how each gains their “Surge-binding” ability: Cultivation gives power through the spren themselves – “transformative cognitive entities” (Khriss) that change their host (the skyeel). Odium gives power to fill the void mortals feel who break their Connections to others (like he tries to do with Dalinar). And Honor gives power by making a Cognitive Connection – the Nahel bond.

IOW, all three major Rosharan magic systems “bind Surges” – meaning these systems change the way Surges normally work. I agree Voidbinding uses Surges unavailable to Surgebinders (like Venli’s “envoyform”). But the reason IMO is that Singer culture (as influenced by Odium) personifies “forms of power” beyond the Honorblade powers. IOW, humans culturally limit KR powers, but the Singers do not.

I also agree fabrials can bind voidspren and use their powers. I suspect, though, voidspren fabrials will run on Voidlight, not Stormlight.

“Focus” Definition?

@Calderis, how do you define a Focus? It’s not clear to me. I hesitate to discuss examples when I’m unsure we’re talking the same language.

In my “Focus” post, I highlight posters’ diverse definitions: a Focus “shapes” the magic; Focus is an “interface,” the “man in the middle”; and a Focus “determines the outcome of the magic.” Brandon says, “the powers…are not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools.” From this, I conclude a Focus chooses the magical “tool,” the power needed for the desired magical effect.

My “power selection” definition distinguishes Focus from the magic user’s decision-making – how to direct the Focused power that Invests the magic user. IOW, Vin chooses brass to Focus Preservation into the soothing power. Once Invested with that power, she decides how best to direct it. Her decision, not the Focus, determines the “outcome of the magic.”

Is this how you see things? Because when you say, “water is Taldain’s Focus” and first bonds and now the Surges are Roshar’s Focus, I’m unsure. Would you please clarify your Focus definition? Thanks!

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

IMO, Marsh (or any Inquisitor) does exactly what Kelsier and Sazed do and uses the exact same powers. The only difference is how Marsh gets his powers – by Hemalurgy, not inheritance. Isn’t that an example of “two identical sets of powers just accessed in different means”? 

And that's where I disagree. Hemalurgy is the actual magic involved in the spikes itself. It gives no abilities. It is only the theft. 

It can steal from any system by stealing the ability to use other systems. When an inquisitor uses Allomancy granted by a spike they are literally using the power granted to someone else by Preservation. Ruin magic only allows the theft. Preservation is still the one pouring investiture through the metal. 

3 hours ago, Confused said:

@Calderis, how do you define a Focus? 

The focus is the thing that shapes the investiture. It is a product of the world on which a magic system exists. 

In your example of Vin, I believe that the power would pour in from Preservation, be shaped by the metal, and then directed by Vin. All of this happens fast enough to be indistinguishable, but there you go. 

For the Radiants, assuming that the surges themselves are the focus, the Radiantwoukd take in Stormlight, and then expend that through the surge that allows that particular force manipulation, and direct it via intent. 

Just as the metals, as the focus on Scadrial, provide different functions in each of the different magic systems, I think that the surges will serve a different function in the different systems on Roshar. 

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Confused said:

IMO, Marsh (or any Inquisitor) does exactly what Kelsier and Sazed do and uses the exact same powers. The only difference is how Marsh gets his powers – by Hemalurgy, not inheritance. Isn’t that an example of “two identical sets of powers just accessed in different means”? 

No, because the actual powers of allomancy being used are still accessed and used the same way that it would in a natural user. Allomancy is still Preservation's power channeled through burning metal. Hemalurgy is in no way changing how the power is accessed or used, it is just artificially giving them the power. 

 

4 hours ago, Confused said:

I agree Voidbinding uses Surges unavailable to Surgebinders (like Venli’s “envoyform”).

There are two issues with this statement, in my opinion.

The first is more a matter of imprecise wording, but I think that voidbinding uses the same ten surges that surgebinding does, it just manipulates the surges in a different way.

Second I don't think that Venli's envoyform, a Regal form, is voidbinding. The reason why I think this is that by the end of WoR, we had not yet seen voidbinding occur directly. Therefore, this means that the lightning abilities that stormform were using was not voidbinding, and I think it's unlikely that there would be a mismatch between Regal forms with some voidbinding and others not, so it seems likely that none are voidbinding. 

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

source

 

[Calderis]

@Spoolofwhool I agree. I feel like Parshendi forms, and by extension regal forms with voidspren, are an extension of fabrials as @LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian suggests in the OP. I just don't think that those are voidbinding. 

[Yata]

On 5/3/2018 at 0:57 PM, Leyrann said:

Why Adhesion?

First of all sorry for the late answer.

I checked the Surges the Fused didn't exibit and there aren't too much of them. Between the "possible spots" I choose Adhesion as main "missing Surge" because it's both the Surge most associate to Honor and because we know by WoB the Unmade could have a corrispondence with Orders and the Bondsmith are the one without the "related Unmade".

Quote

XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW]

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW]

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

source

Of course Yelig-Nar showed as able to manipulate all the Surges but there must be a Surge less fitted to be manipulated with Odium's power and those clues point me to think it's Adhesion.

[Confused]

Thanks so much, @Calderis and @Spoolofwhool, for your responses! They help move the conversation, and I enjoy discussing this stuff with you.

What Defines Magic Systems

On 3/5/2018 at 4:56 PM, Calderis said:

On 3/5/2018 at 1:47 PM, Confused said:

IMO, Marsh (or any Inquisitor) does exactly what Kelsier and Sazed do and uses the exact same powers. The only difference is how Marsh gets his powers – by Hemalurgy, not inheritance. Isn’t that an example of “two identical sets of powers just accessed in different means”? 

And that's where I disagree. Hemalurgy is the actual magic involved in the spikes itself. It gives no abilities. It is only the theft. 

It can steal from any system by stealing the ability to use other systems. When an inquisitor uses Allomancy granted by a spike they are literally using the power granted to someone else by Preservation. Ruin magic only allows the theft. Preservation is still the one pouring investiture through the metal. 

I agree Hemalurgy as a magic system steals the innate Investiture that grants use of the powers, though I stand by my quoted statement. Again, Brandon defines a Shard’s “role” by “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” IMO, increasing net entropy is how Ruin’s magic users gain their powers (through metal spiking).

I believe that’s true of every Shard’s magic system – they all give power by a unique means: endowing life, transforming life, making or breaking Connections. But Brandon says twice that Shards all use the same powers: in the just cited WoB and here.

If you mean different magic systems do things differently, I agree there too. Magic systems conform to the constraints of cultural perception; their Shardworld’s inherent Investiture; the fact Shardworlds (other than Scadrial) are made from Adonalsium’s essence; and the Shard’s internal constraints (its “role,” personality, Mandate/intent, whatever…) But the one constant is each Shard grants its powers in a unique and defining way – even on worlds like Sel and Roshar that share Shards.

You interpret the first WoB to mean, “the individual powers are not shaped or constrained by Preservation's intent” and “Voidbinding will be accessed through some means of Odium, but its powers will not be limited to Odium's intent in application.” Fair enough, but I don’t see the difference between our interpretations. If you strip “intent” from power, isn’t all power the same, as held by Adonalsium? IMO, Spiritual Realm power changes only when a Shard or magic user Focuses it into some form of matter, energy or other Investiture.

Focus

On 3/5/2018 at 4:56 PM, Calderis said:

The focus is the thing that shapes the investiture. It is a product of the world on which a magic system exists. 

I think our definitions agree that Focuses filter power: “the thing that shapes the investiture” = the thing “that chooses the power necessary for some magical effect”? If so, I don’t understand why you believe water is Taldain’s Focus. How do you see water “shaping” Autonomy’s Investiture to make the sand microflora do different things?

Quote

Giving water to the tiny plant causes a chain reaction of sudden growth, energy, and Realmic transition. Certain people can control this reaction, using the water from their own bodies to forge a brief Cognitive bond. They can draw Investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the Spiritual Realm, and use that to control the sand. (AU, “The Taldain System,” Kindle pp. 369-370.)

Khriss says water creates the bond, but Spiritual Realm Investiture controls the sand. Maybe you can say water carries the Sand Master’s commands to the microflora; but is the Focus then water or the commands? FWIW, I think Sand Mastery resembles Awakening. Brandon says Awakening’s Focus is its visualized commands. I think Sand Masters also visualize commands to the Invested microflora through their temporary Cognitive bond.

Magic Mechanics

On 3/5/2018 at 4:56 PM, Calderis said:

In your example of Vin, I believe that the power would pour in from Preservation, be shaped by the metal, and then directed by Vin. All of this happens fast enough to be indistinguishable, but there you go. 

For the Radiants, assuming that the surges themselves are the focus, the Radiantwoukd take in Stormlight, and then expend that through the surge that allows that particular force manipulation, and direct it via intent. 

Just as the metals, as the focus on Scadrial, provide different functions in each of the different magic systems, I think that the surges will serve a different function in the different systems on Roshar.

I agree with your descriptions except for the Roshar Focus. In my “Pathways to Power” post, I lay out a uniform magic-making model. I agree the magical steps occur “fast enough to be indistinguishable.” Here’s how Allomancy and Surgebinding fit my model, for comparison.

1. A magic user consumes a Catalyst.  Allomancers burn metals. Surgebinders infuse Stormlight. I think Khriss uses the word “Catalyst” because consuming the Catalyst starts the magic. Yes, I know it’s chemically incorrect.

2. The Catalyst activates each Shard’s unique pathway to the Spiritual Realm. Burning metal “causes a resonance” in what Marasi calls metal’s “pathway to power.” (BoM, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359.) Metal is Preservation’s pathway IMO because of its static molecular structure. I think each Shard’s “pathway to power” is its unique medium for transmitting magical energy between a magic user and Spiritual Realm power – metal, water, electromagnetic radiation, etc.

Consuming infused Stormlight gives Surgebinders access to the Surges. My “Pathways” post says Honor’s pathway is the Surgebinder’s neural synapses. IMO, Honor gives his power by making a Cognitive Connection between a Radiant spren and the Surgebinder – the Nahel bond. Reinforcing Connections (like through oaths) strengthens the synaptic connections between the Surgebinder and his ideals (the Radiant spren), increasing his power.

3. The Spiritual Realm releases power down the pathway. “The power would pour in from Preservation,” or (for Surgebinders) Honor and/or Cultivation.

4. Each magic system’s Focus shapes the pathway to choose which power is released. Vin’s metal filters which power will Invest her. Radiant spren (IMO) filter which power Invests the Surgebinder. Not to re-open the debate, but to express my reason: Spren are power that personify an idea. Through them (as a Focus), the idea they personify manifests in the Physical Realm – fire, gravity, life, wind, etc. Just add a little Stormlight…

5. The Focused power Invests the magic user.

6. The magic user directs the Invested power for some magical effect.

Another Wall Bump

On 3/5/2018 at 6:49 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

On 3/5/2018 at 1:47 PM, Confused said:

I agree Voidbinding uses Surges unavailable to Surgebinders (like Venli’s “envoyform”).

There are two issues with this statement, in my opinion.

The first is more a matter of imprecise wording, but I think that voidbinding uses the same ten surges that surgebinding does, it just manipulates the surges in a different way.

Second I don't think that Venli's envoyform, a Regal form, is voidbinding. The reason why I think this is that by the end of WoR, we had not yet seen voidbinding occur directly. Therefore, this means that the lightning abilities that stormform were using was not voidbinding, and I think it's unlikely that there would be a mismatch between Regal forms with some voidbinding and others not, so it seems likely that none are voidbinding. 

You’re right, @Spool, my statement was “imprecise” (spelled “W-R-O-N-G”). @Calderis said, “I don't believe for a moment though that [Voidbinding} is the exact same powers” as other Rosharan magic systems. I responded that a “Surge” is just a cultural interpretation of a Rosharan Shard’s power (which is true). I used Venli to show how a different culture would personify spren differently, resulting in different powers. I went off the tracks when I called the powers such spren personify “Surges” and gave envoyform as a Voidbinding example. Good catch!

On 3/5/2018 at 7:47 PM, Calderis said:

@Spoolofwhool I agree. I feel like Parshendi forms, and by extension regal forms with voidspren, are an extension of fabrials as @LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian suggests in the OP. I just don't think that those are voidbinding. 

I agree too: Non-magic Singers transform through their bond with pre-Shattering spren. Regals transform through their bond with voidspren (which does give them some forms of power like envoyform, but not access to the Surges). I believe these transformations, like fabrials, are Cultivation’s magic. But art imitates nature – Singer transformations precede fabrials, not the other way around.

OTOH, the Fused (IMO) do Voidbind. They break their Connections to others to gain the ability to bind Surges. Breaking Cognitive Connections (as I repeatedly say) is how Odium’s magic users gain his magic. I think Odium’s pathway is neuron death, killing Cognitive Connections. That’s why he holds the “most terrible” power and is best at Shard-killing (IMO). I think many Fused are imbecilic because of the brain damage they suffer to regain their powers each time they return.

I’ll end on that note…Again, thanks much for your comments!

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Confused said:

I responded that a “Surge” is just a cultural interpretation of a Rosharan Shard’s power (which is true). I used Venli to show how a different culture would personify spren differently, resulting in different powers.

Not exactly. From what I understand, what the people of Roshar call "surges" are just their way of referring to what they believe are fundamental forces in the Cosmere. They don't see them as belonging to a shard, and them defining the surges seems to predate the appearance of surgebinding, according to the Stele. All variations of powers on Roshar seem to follow the pattern of manipulating one of the surges, regardless of cultural definition.

You made a lot of other interesting points that I'd like to respond to, but I'll need time to do so.

[Confused]

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

On 3/7/2018 at 10:22 AM, Confused said:

I responded that a “Surge” is just a cultural interpretation of a Rosharan Shard’s power (which is true). I used Venli to show how a different culture would personify spren differently, resulting in different powers.

Not exactly. From what I understand, what the people of Roshar call "surges" are just their way of referring to what they believe are fundamental forces in the Cosmere. They don't see them as belonging to a shard, and them defining the surges seems to predate the appearance of surgebinding, according to the Stele. All variations of powers on Roshar seem to follow the pattern of manipulating one of the surges, regardless of cultural definition.

Here’s what Khriss says in the OB Ars Arcanum (Kindle p. 1238, emphasis added) and the other SLA AAs:

Quote

As a complement to the Essences, the classical elements celebrated on Roshar, are found the Ten Surges. These, thought to be the fundamental forces by which the world operates, are more accurately a representation of the ten basic abilities offered to the Heralds, and then the Knights Radiant, by their bonds.

I read this to mean the “Ten Surges” represent the Honorblade powers. Roshar’s humans “think” they’re fundamental forces, but they’re not. These Surges do come from a Shard – Honor, the Almighty – whether acknowledged as such. Vorin culture, at least, doesn’t acknowledge other deities.

I think humans associated the Honorblade powers with each Herald’s Divine Attributes. They personified Radiant spren to represent the Ten Surges and Divine Attributes. To me, that’s “a cultural interpretation of a Rosharan Shard’s power.”

I think Singers personify the same idea differently from humans. Yixli, the yellow-white spren that discovers and then speaks for Kaladin, is IMO a “protection” spren. I believe Syl is also a “protection” spren, her Primary Divine Attribute. Yet Yixli offers no powers and seems grounded in stone: Singers apparently personify stone as protection. This at least suggests the possibility that Singers might personify different powers as “Surges.” Renarin's future sight IMO is an example, as I explain in one of my posts above. I do agree all of Roshar's magic systems bind Surges.

I don’t yet put much credence in the Eila Stele. It’s too convenient a plot device and too self-serving for one side. Brandon revels in reversals, and I feel there’s one lurking there. (I’m not suggesting anything by this, but I do note how Ahu/Jezrien’s drunken words to Dalinar mirror the Eila Stele (OB, Chapter 88, Kindle p. 853)):

Quote

We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault.

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You made a lot of other interesting points that I'd like to respond to, but I'll need time to do so.

Take your time. I aim to be “interesting” if nothing else… Would the “Pathways” post be a better thread to put your response?

Edited March 8, 2018 by Confused

[Spoolofwhool]

26 minutes ago, Confused said:

I read this to mean the “Ten Surges” represent the Honorblade powers. Roshar’s humans “think” they’re fundamental forces, but they’re not. These Surges do come from a Shard – Honor, the Almighty – whether acknowledged as such. Vorin culture, at least, doesn’t acknowledge other deities.

First of all, like I said, the concept of surges appear to have come into existence before the appearance of surgebinding. This means that it cannot have originally been used to simply explain the ten variations of Heraldic powers. The translated Stele, which predated the first desolation, used the term, and the existence of the Heralds and the observation of surgebinding only came about following the start of the desolations. 

Therefore, my feeling is that the ten variations of surgebinding formed using the definitions of the surges as a base to distinguish themselves, as a result of the significance of the cognitive realm on it. Similarly, the other main manifestations of investiture on Roshar, voidbinding and fabrials, will principally draw upon those base definitions for surges to distinguish the base variation. 

Khriss is still essentially right however, as the surges are not true fundamental forces of the Cosmere, and from a greater Cosmere perspective, can really only be used to describe the workings of the manifestations of investiture of Roshar.

35 minutes ago, Confused said:

I think humans associated the Honorblade powers with each Herald’s Divine Attributes. They personified Radiant spren to represent the Ten Surges and Divine Attributes. To me, that’s “a cultural interpretation of a Rosharan Shard’s power.”

Other way around. The spren were formed from the human perception of surges. 

Quote

Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

source

 

I see though that you seem to not put much stock in the Stele. Do you think then that it's chronological origin cannot be trusted? Barring that though, in the absence of proof that its information or origin is fake, I see no reason why we can't take it to be true regarding the timeline of when the term surges was used. You cannot ignore it just because it contradicts your theory. 

[Confused]

My goodness! I’m surprised my comments about Surges generate such controversy! I thought we were discussing whether “Surges” are restricted to certain types of powers, not the word’s timeline and origin. I may have worded something poorly causing misunderstanding and will also address your other points.

1. Misunderstanding. You say, “The spren were formed from the human perception of surges.” I say, humans “personified Radiant spren to represent the Ten Surges.” I mean the same thing you do – the Surges precede Radiant spren. I just ascribe Radiant spren Surges to the Honorblades, based on Khriss.

2. Meaning of Surge and Surgebinding. You rely on the Eila Stele for your conclusion; I rely on Khriss. Both sources IMO are imperfect and questionable. Khriss may be the cosmere’s “most knowledgeable” magical arcanist, but Brandon hints she, like all experts, is fallible. Let’s look at the Eila Stele.

6 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

First of all, like I said, the concept of surges appear to have come into existence before the appearance of surgebinding. This means that it cannot have originally been used to simply explain the ten variations of Heraldic powers. The translated Stele, which predated the first desolation, used the term, and the existence of the Heralds and the observation of surgebinding only came about following the start of the desolations. 

“Surges” is the modern human translation of some Dawnchant word with comparable meaning – maybe “fundamental power” or just “power.” Today on Roshar, humans use “Surge” to translate that word. Look at this page to show how English translations of Homer change through the years. I think we can’t assume “Surge” is a literal translation of a more than five-thousand-year-old concept. It might be, but it might not.

I also question whether “the concept of surges” precedes “surgebinding.” My question relates to “surgebinding’s” definition. You note,

On 3/7/2018 at 3:21 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

All variations of powers on Roshar seem to follow the pattern of manipulating one of the surges, regardless of cultural definition.

I think it’s equally fair to say each system binds one of the Surges. IOW, “binding” Surges does not refer to Honor or the Nahel bond and its magic. To bind is to restrain, to impose. To bond is to unite from a shared interest, like the Nahel bond. I think Roshar’s major magic systems all bind the Surges to their magic user’s will – they all “surge-bind.” IMO, these systems differ only in the way they get their magic – through making Cognitive Connections (Surgebinding), breaking Cognitive Connections (Voidbinding), or transformation (fabrials). IOW, even before “Surgebinding,” Rosharans knew of “surge-binding.” They saw it in greatshells and skyeels.

And finally, I again point out that Singer culture personifies some phenomena differently from humans. An easy example is the Rider of Storms vs. the Stormfather. Ideas are cultural; and spren are the personification of cultural ideas, even ideas adopted from another culture (if that’s what “Surges” are). I think you agree when you describe “the human perception of surges.” Culture entwines perception, like the many words the Inuit have for snow.

3. My Eila Stele Misgivings. You ask,

6 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I see though that you seem to not put much stock in the Stele. Do you think then that it's chronological origin cannot be trusted? Barring that though, in the absence of proof that its information or origin is fake, I see no reason why we can't take it to be true regarding the timeline of when the term surges was used. You cannot ignore it just because it contradicts your theory. 

First, “stock in the Stele”!!! I love that! (Maybe if I were an Allomancer…)

Second, I have no theory about this stuff. I’m just interpreting text. I respect other interpretations. I don’t think what a “Surge” is much affects my magic system theory. “Surge” IMO is an example of Khriss’ “rule of perception” from her AU Sel essay (Kindle, p. 17).

Last: The Stele’s translation and origin trouble me, not its chronology. It was translated in Kharbranth and at Jah Keved monasteries. Those are Taravangian’s kingdoms. His people might have reason to translate nuance in his favor. “Ardent Urv,” in OB Interlude I-2, appears to report to Taravangian. (Is he a Diagram member?) I don’t trust the translation. Will Jasnah’s translation have the same emphasis?

A Singer does seem to write it. But IMO, the Stele speaks of Voidbringers as Odium magic users. Then it was humans; now it’s Singers. I’m still struck how Ahu’s quote in my previous post resembles the Eila Stele. Has anyone suggested Jezrien is a Singer who went to Honor to fight Odium?

If you don’t mind, I’m done on the “cultural origin of Surges” topic. I’d rather exchange ideas with you on other stuff you find comment-worthy. Thanks, @Spool!

Edited March 9, 2018 by Confused

[Calderis]

@Confused the issue here though, is that the translation is of a known document, and it can be verified by others thanks to Dalinar being the key to the dawnchant. An intentional mistranslation would need to be very close to a true translation to not have scholars calling shenanigans.

Closer to put original discussion though, the surges are not purely a matter of Rosharan culture appropriated or not. The surges, or something analogous to them, predate surgebinding and humans arrival to Roshar itself. 

Quote

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

source

So the same forces, called surges or otherwise, were involved in the magic system of Ashyn.

So a different system, same forces. Just like I'm saying for the different systems on Roshar itself.

Renarin's use of illumination is still reliant on the same forces they are just utilized differently. He even gains access to it in the same manner, through a bonded spren. The outcome is undeniably different though. 

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

On 3/1/2018 at 5:49 PM, Calderis said:

This assumes that the Fused are voidbinding. Considering the voidbinding chart, and Renarin, I don't think they do. 

 What about this has to do with Renarin? Glys was touched by Sja-anat. He was corrupted, not turned into a voidspren.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

 What about this has to do with Renarin? Glys was touched by Sja-anat. He was corrupted, not turned into a voidspren.

Because it's confirmed that Renarin is voidbinding. Prior to OB, Argent received a secret WoB that he was allowed to share after Oathbringer's release. 

He asked Brandon what was going on with Renarin, and Brandon pointed to the voidbinding chart. He couldn't have been very much clearer. 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

Another addition to what Calderis said about the translation of the term "surge". In the vision where Dalinar spoke Dawnchant, he said "surgebinder," which means that they do have a precise magical translation of the whatever the word for surge is in Dawnchant. 

[Confused]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because it's confirmed that Renarin is voidbinding. Prior to OB, Argent received a secret WoB that he was allowed to share after Oathbringer's release. 

This is NOT confirmed. This is your interpretation. You say the WoB plus Brandon pointing to the Voidbinding chart means Renarin is a Voidbinder. I think he points because Glys is a voidspren. We agree bonding a voidspren like Regals doesn’t make you a Voidbinder.

In an earlier post, I responded to your interpretation:

On 3/3/2018 at 5:41 PM, Confused said:

I read the WoB the opposite way:

1. Argent’s question assumes Renarin Voidbinds. Brandon doesn’t confirm this. Instead, he confirms that Renarin “us[es] Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen.”  I think we can all agree with this.

2. When Argent asks, “Is that what Voidbinding is?” Brandon answers “No.” Putting these statements together, Brandon says Voidbinding is NOT “using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen.”  IOW, Renarin doesn’t Voidbind.

People can interpret for themselves. Yours is a fair opinion, but not the only one.

This led to the debate over the difference between Surgebinding and Voidbinding. That in turn led to the debate over the meaning of “Surge.” Just to summarize my position and not to further argue it:

1. Surgebinders gain their powers from making a Cognitive Connection – the Nahel bond. Voidbinders gain their powers from breaking Cognitive Connections. IMO, the powers each gains are more or less the same, by whatever name.

2. Because I read Brandon to say Renarin doesn’t Voidbind, and Renarin and Glys share the Nahel bond, I conclude he’s a Surgebinder. AFAIK, Renarin doesn’t have a gemheart. Brandon says he “us[es] Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen.” That doesn’t make Renarin a Voidbinder; it just means his Surgebinding abilities are different.

3. FWIW, I believe Cultivation transformed Glys to make him “Nahel-bondable.” She foresaw the Final Desolation. She needed a Nahel-bondable voidspren to grant “future sight” to a KR. I don’t think Glys is a Truthwatcher spren corrupted by Sja-anat.

But that’s just my opinion.

[Calderis]

@Confused I could understand your interpretation if we were only speaking in the context of this WoB.

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

source

But I'm not speaking of only that one. As I've linked multiple times in the thread now, Argent asked what us up with Renarin. Brandon pointed to the voidbinding chart. I don't see how that can be interpreted as other than Renarin is voidbinding.

Edit: to be clear. As the WoB here says, this is not the normal. Means by which voidbinding is accessed. I do not know what the normal means is as we have not been shown that. But as it says in the final line in that WoB, "something really weird is happening there." as in Renarin is doing good something that is new.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Calderis

[Willshaping Crasher]

On 3/3/2018 at 6:26 PM, Calderis said:

Fabrials also manipulate surges, and yes they can mimic aspects of surgebinding. I think they'll also be able to mimic aspects of Voidbinding, as well as do things that neither can as they are particularly specialized in their applications. 

Very interesting. We have the WoB that states that Ruin is most compatable with Cultivation, and now we see Fabrials manipulating surgebinding (obviously not exactly the same as hemalurgy, but an interesting parallel).

[Obvcop]

On 02/03/2018 at 1:49 AM, Calderis said:

This assumes that the Fused are voidbinding. Considering the voidbinding chart, and Renarin, I don't think they do. 

If the fused aren't void binding then what is the point in that magic system being in the book if it isn't to be used by the main protagonists. Why would they have the bad guys and the good guys using normal surgebinding but the entire 'evil' surgebinding system that our big bad guy created, to only be used by one good guy renarin. 

It makes far more sense to me to suggest renarin is void binding with only one of his surges due to his corrupted spren and that the fused are also limited to one surge from the void binding chart (why its limited to one I couldn't possibly assume myself) I think we're going to find out that every void binding surge from the chart is going to have unintended powers and side effects we don't know yet

Edited March 10, 2018 by Obvcop

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Obvcop said:

Why would they have the bad guys and the good guys using normal surgebinding but the entire 'evil' surgebinding system that our big bad guy created, to only be used by one good guy renarin. 

Why would a magic system be tied to morality? The Shards themselves aren't good or evil, though the Vessels can be. The magic also, isn't created by the personality of the vessel, but by the existence and presence of the power itself. 

I didn't say that Renarin was the only user, just the only user we've seen, in my opinion. 

 

[Obvcop]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Why would a magic system be tied to morality? The Shards themselves aren't good or evil, though the Vessels can be. The magic also, isn't created by the personality of the vessel, but by the existence and presence of the power itself. 

I didn't say that Renarin was the only user, just the only user we've seen, in my opinion. 

 

I never implied morality was involved in surge/void binding, I was framing it in the context of goid/bad in the story 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Obvcop said:

I never implied morality was involved in surge/void binding, I was framing it in the context of goid/bad in the story 

The difference between good and bad are founded upon morality and perspective. I assume that when you're saying good/bad, you're actually meaning antagonistic and protagonistic with regards to the narrative and the main characters. 

Either way, to define voidbinding as an "evil" or twisted form of surgebinding is an inaccuracy I think. It wasn't designed by anything, but just formed from the power of one or more shards investing into the world. Either way, as it should be a completely different system, this means that it should have significantly different effects from surgebinding. However, as we have largely only seen the Fused act in ways which could be done with surgebinding, with the only significant difference being that they use voidlight instead of stormlight, the more likelier explanation is that they're surgebinding. This is then supported by us likely seeing Renarin voidbinding and manipulating the Surge of Illumination following the natural pairing of surges, in contrast to when we saw a Fused cloak itself in an illusion, in an identical way to how Shallan surgebinds the Illumination.

[Obvcop]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The difference between good and bad are founded upon morality and perspective. I assume that when you're saying good/bad, you're actually meaning antagonistic and protagonistic with regards to the narrative and the main characters. 

Either way, to define voidbinding as an "evil" or twisted form of surgebinding is an inaccuracy I think. It wasn't designed by anything, but just formed from the power of one or more shards investing into the world. Either way, as it should be a completely different system, this means that it should have significantly different effects from surgebinding. However, as we have largely only seen the Fused act in ways which could be done with surgebinding, with the only significant difference being that they use voidlight instead of stormlight, the more likelier explanation is that they're surgebinding. This is then supported by us likely seeing Renarin voidbinding and manipulating the Surge of Illumination following the natural pairing of surges, in contrast to when we saw a Fused cloak itself in an illusion, in an identical way to how Shallan surgebinds the Illumination.

We've only seen small glimpses of fused using 'surges', not enough of the different surges to make clear determination either way. I don't think it's enough to infer that what they are doing is exactly the same as our radiants surgebinding. I'd need to double check but wasn't there something odd about the floating fused?

Personally I think that the different spren the fused bond with are only able to provide one surge at a time but 'surge' is from the voidbinding chart. I think as the story unfolds we are going to see the difference between each of the 'surges' on the voidbinding chart and the surgebinding one.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Obvcop

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Obvcop said:

Personally I think that the different spren the fused bond with are only able to provide one surge at a time but 'surge' is from the voidbinding chart. I think as the story unfolds we are going to see the difference between each of the 'surges' on the voidbinding chart and the surgebinding one.

I'll just agree to disagree on the surgebinding/voidbinding thing. 

The Fused don't bond with spren though. The form and body given are a result of the Fused taking over the body themselves. They appear to be the same every time across bodies.