Those who are trampled (spoiler)

[bluefoxicy]

Something bothers me about the series. I suppose it will be resolved eventually, but...

The Listeners, the Parshendi, aren't really evil or black-and-grey morality. There's a strong implication that they've fought for freedom from Voidspren--except for Esohani's sister, who acts as if she was both aware of what exactly she was doing and entirely too pleased about it, not for vengeance or salvation but because she has a direct motivation. They're shown with culture and aspirations, with a desire to become what they can be without the rule of their evil gods.

And then it's all ripped away from them.

After that, a new implication is lain: parshmen and listeners will become Voidbringers, all of them. They have no escape. And they have no allies: they will be hunted and murdered. No one thinks of their salvation, not men or spren or gods.

The resolution lain before us is to kill the vessel, nearly. Dalinar regards the Voidbringers as a consequence; he did not set out to have all parshmen executed in preparation, though probably he should have taken the chance while sounding the final alarms. His stated goal is to destroy their god. That may, as a consequence, free them; but that as well has not been given as a goal: Adolin once considered that Esohani had been a different person when they first met, but that consideration has since left.

Now they are simply in the way.

As well, the spren who form shardblades are lost. They are revived when called, and near as anyone can tell from what we're shown they spend their entire time screaming. A broken bond kills them... and forcing them back to serve is torment? Spren place themselves in no physical danger; they bond to serve, and they die when the one they bond with fails in any way to uphold those oaths. If a Skybreaker shows pity or acts on what is right and just instead of what is law, his spren dies; if a Windrunner fails to act on what he believes is right, his spren dies.

All have failed. This implies that all have died. All have a promise, an oath, and when they die they fail something. Kaladin is sworn to protect, and he cannot simply lock himself away because there will always be those to protect; and when he dies, he will fail.

Good people are hurt. Good people die. But this world, it asks too much. The spren who live in Shadesmar are isolated, completely bored; those who come to see the world lose themselves, become demented; and those who become something worthwhile are destined to die. An entire race of beings has no potential, as they are only tools of a demented and hateful god, and exist only to be slaughtered or to be the right hand of slaughter. And from what we can tell, men are either dead to oblivion or sent to eternal damnation--save for a Shardblade, which apparently destroys the soul... or not, given Szeth's revival, hinting that the disruption is of the nervous system.

This world was made brutal. It's not like Sel or Nalthis, carrying the banes of men and society; the world itself seems to have been forged from hatred, a demand that all must suffer the worst dooms imaginable.

[Argent]

You paint a grim picture. But I don't think it's as bad as you present it. In part because Brandon writes heroic fantasy, but also in part because Roshar has existed in relative peace for thousands of years, at least on a global scale. Yes, the spren who were once bonded to the Radiants are in a pretty bad shape. But this is not necessarily the fate that awaits the new wave of Nahel spren. Maybe it's possible for a Radiant to peacefully sever the bond and simply send their spren to Shadesmar. Maybe the oaths offer enough freedom for Knights and spren to work together and avoid painful consequences. Maybe humanity will emerge from the Last Desolation victorious enough so the Orders won't be under so much pressure to uphold their Ideals. I imagine that if Kaladin starts a family in, say, Hearthstone after the war, he won't have all that many people to protect and he wouldn't find himself in as many situations where he has to choose between conflicting promises.

Of course, it IS the Everstorm, the end of the world, and I can't imagine it anywhere in the same neighborhood as peaceful and easy life. But there is hope.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

How much water you happen to have in that cup?

To address a few of your points. The Parshendi chose to take up storm form of their own free will. They went thousands of years in control of their own destinies so I wouldn't say the world has dealt them a bad hand. It was their choice to keep their reasons for the assissination from the Alethi, their choice to not sue for peace earlier, and their choice to seek storm form in their desperation. They were never forced into it.

There is also no proof one way or the other that the everstorm will convert all parshendi in whatever form who encounter it, just that it will likely convert the parshmen, so we'll have to wait and see just how bad a hand the remaining parshendi have been dealt. I actually see the Rlain story arc as a very strong indication that the parshendi will eventually be redeemed and released from their enslavement.

As for the spren and the Radiants, again, they aren't forced to put themselves at risk of death. Like anything else, nothing good comes without some sacrifice and risk. The spren can stay in shadesmar if they want and the Radiants don't have to say the oaths. To become something extraordinary, though, yes they have to take the risk. I really don't see Roshar as being anymore brutal or unfair than our world, just different choices and consequences.

[ricree]

The highstorms didn't change the listeners unless they actually went out in it. Until we see evidence otherwise, I see no reason to assume that the everstorm will be different.

Hopefully, the remaining listeners had enough time to take preparations and find shelter before it hit.

[Argent]

There is an argument to be made about the special relationship the listeners have with the voidspren (namely, the spren's ability to take control over the listeners' minds). I personally do not support this, but I acknowledge that it is possible that voidspren, unlike regular spren, do not need the consent of the Parshendi to bond with them. Eshonai's experience just before she began her transformation to stormform could be an considered support for this - namely, how it looked like even though she tried to back away from the transformation, it still happened. A much weaker, but still possible, argument could be made that the Everstorm is much more dangerous to the listeners than the recent highstorms, because of either the much higher concentration of voidspren in it, or some special properties of its own, or a combination of both.

To me, this is not enough to make the argument that voidspren can force the listeners to turn into Voidbringers, but I like to make sure both sides of each argument are as informed as I can make them. So devil's advocate it is.

[Lugonn]

All have failed. This implies that all have died. All have a promise, an oath, and when they die they fail something. Kaladin is sworn to protect, and he cannot simply lock himself away because there will always be those to protect; and when he dies, he will fail.

 

 

Death is not breaking the oaths, it's just death. Syl has been bonded before and she's doing just fine now.

[shinintendo]

I'm more into this passage

 

“Yes and no,” Wit said. “The storm should hit Shinovar tonight, then work its way across the land. I believe that the storm will bring the transformation.”

Jasnah stopped in place. “That’s not how it happened in the past. I have learned things on the other side.”

“You are correct. It is different this time.”

She licked her lips, but otherwise did a good job containing her anxiety. “If it’s not happening as it did before, then everything I know could be false. The words of the highspren could be inaccurate. The records I seek could be meaningless.”

What is the difference between than and now, and what are the implications? I think it's about the storm and the Parshendi, the storm needs to hit the Parshmen to transform them, they got a chance to escape.

 

Parshmen/=Parshendi (Jasnah thought before and maybe now that they are all the same species), she only talks about the parshmen not Parshendi, how do they fit the past? (We know book 4 is about them)

Everyone say how the world is doomed now but what if the difference in situation tells a different story, a more uplifting one of chance to fix what's broken.

Of course it could all means worst scenario than before.

 

Did Jasnah jumping to the past changed the present already? being there and interacting with the past people/events is like back to the future movie hehe

[Asperity]

I like the way it's laid out, with unfortunate things happening. Odium kind of has Roshar in a cluster of control so Roshar won't be in a great situation for a while.

 

And what's this about Jasnah jumping to the past?

[shinintendo]

Sorry I assumed that Jasnah transported to the past with her powers (I blame Wit ) She probably just hanged in Shadesmar and researched the past. but all other questions still stand I think

[marianmi]

 

Death is not breaking the oaths, it's just death. Syl has been bonded before and she's doing just fine now.

 

Syl was not bonded before.

 

Eshonai's experience just before she began her transformation to stormform could be an considered support for this - namely, how it looked like even though she tried to back away from the transformation, it still happened. A much weaker, but still possible, argument could be made that the Everstorm is much more dangerous to the listeners than the recent highstorms, because of either the much higher concentration of voidspren in it, or some special properties of its own, or a combination of both.

 

Highstorms don't carry voidspren (like they do windspren for example). Eshonai had hers from Venli, and it's not clear how it was ... collected. Thus, I expect the everstorm to be a way to disseminate voidspren, and maybe more than 1 type of it. 

Parshendi that are caught in should be toasted.

 

There is an argument to be made about the special relationship the listeners have with the voidspren (namely, the spren's ability to take control over the listeners' minds). I personally do not support this...

 

I think this one is a complicated. Eshonai hears herself screaming when attuning Peace. This is awfully similar to the shardblades - spren that had "their consciousness ripped". I believe this is what happened here as well - a part of her mind was ripped away - and maybe replaced by something else. We have intelligent, thinking, talking spren like Syl - maybe voidspren are the same, and replace some part of a parshendi's mind. 

 

[Djerf]

 

 

 

Syl was not bonded before.

But still she has "helped men kill before" as she states in WoK p.626, unless she did it as a windspren she likely has been bonded before just not at the time of the betrayal.

[marianmi]

But still she has "helped men kill before" as she states in WoK p.626, unless she did it as a windspren she likely has been bonded before just not at the time of the betrayal.

 

This raises the question - how was she unbonded? Did her radiant die? And how long spren take before moving on to another bond?

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

There is an argument to be made about the special relationship the listeners have with the voidspren (namely, the spren's ability to take control over the listeners' minds). I personally do not support this, but I acknowledge that it is possible that voidspren, unlike regular spren, do not need the consent of the Parshendi to bond with them. Eshonai's experience just before she began her transformation to stormform could be an considered support for this - namely, how it looked like even though she tried to back away from the transformation, it still happened. A much weaker, but still possible, argument could be made that the Everstorm is much more dangerous to the listeners than the recent highstorms, because of either the much higher concentration of voidspren in it, or some special properties of its own, or a combination of both.

To me, this is not enough to make the argument that voidspren can force the listeners to turn into Voidbringers, but I like to make sure both sides of each argument are as informed as I can make them. So devil's advocate it is.

 

Perhaps Odium's magic system, voidbinding, is similar to Ruin's in that it is not consensual, you don't choose to be affected, but the user's have that ability to dominate the victim.

 

[Argent]

Highstorms don't carry voidspren (like they do windspren for example).

Syl tells Kaladin that she has seen "spren like red lightning... stormspren" after the 62-days countdown begins. So those must be hanging out somewhere, in much lower numbers than in the Everstorm, but still present. A highstorm seemed liked a good candidate to me.

[darkanimereal1]

Highstorms don't carry voidspren (like they do windspren for example). Eshonai had hers from Venli, and it's not clear how it was ... collected. Thus, I expect the everstorm to be a way to disseminate voidspren, and maybe more than 1 type of it. 

Parshendi that are caught in should be toasted.

 

I think this one is a complicated. Eshonai hears herself screaming when attuning Peace. This is awfully similar to the shardblades - spren that had "their consciousness ripped". I believe this is what happened here as well - a part of her mind was ripped away - and maybe replaced by something else. We have intelligent, thinking, talking spren like Syl - maybe voidspren are the same, and replace some part of a parshendi's mind. 

 

First off, there are a crazy amount of the voidspren in the Everstorm, correct? They've been around already (Syl sees them, and I think Kaladin mentions seeing them during the highstorm in the chasm scene), but they are in wide abundance during the Everstorm.

 

Second, the Eshonai screaming, as CrystalBodies pointed out, reminds me a lot of (Mistborn spoiler)

 

Marsh in Mistborn. I'm sure this has been brought up before, since the similarities are too big to dismiss, although I haven't stumbled across anyone mentioning this in the threads yet. If that's the case, it could be that by allowing their bodies to transform/merge with the void spren, the listeners are effectively allowing themselves to become tools (just like hemalurgy with Inquisitors). This leaves me with hope that, should even one listener play their cards right--Eshonai? Rlain?--they will be able to break through Odium's control to do something vital, although I have no idea what that may be.

 

But still she has "helped men kill before" as she states in WoK p.626, unless she did it as a windspren she likely has been bonded before just not at the time of the betrayal.

 

Seeing as this line comes so late, Syl could be referring to helping Kaladin kill men on the battle field. The beginning of TWoK comes to mind. The first time we see Kaladin wielding a spear, Syl is zipping around him (this is from the young boy's perspective). Kaladin was definitely killing people at that point, and Syl was definitely there.