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Is splintering really a bad thing [Odium FTW]


Zelly

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From the perspective of the Shardholder, sure.  But the overall power shift seems.......kinda nice?

We had Adonalsium whose power then got dispersed to planets via worldhopping shards.  Woohoo more, better, stronger magics in more places!  Now those shards are being splintered or splintering the own power and trickling the power down even more.  The peoples of the cosmere use these powers to improve their technology, gain insight from other realms, create connections to other peoples, and generally grow in knowledge and skills.

It brings up a lot of age old political and religious questions.  Should power belong to the few or the many? Does access to such power make the cosmere as a whole a better place, or just a more dangerous place? 

Is Odium really the secret Robin Hood hero of the cosmere, stealing from the rich and distributing to the poor? (Okay, that's a stretch :P). Discuss!

Edited by Zellyia
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Please excuse me for bluntness. @Zellyia Are you Odium in disguise? Was this your purpose all along?

But in essence your questions are interesting ones. I would like to know more of the backstory of the Cosmere/Yolen/Silverlight but I suppose that information is a bit of a way off for us. That's okay. I am patient.

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So I stumbled on a random, but related WoB https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#174

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THANATOS17901 ()

Thanks so much for all your writing, Way of Kings is the best book I've read in the last decade.

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the shard Harmony?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

Could Odium actually be afraid not of other shards, but too much concentrated power?  We know next to nothing of why the Shattering occurred.  Had Adonalsium's power and presence created an opposite force/being to create a sort of balance?  Maybe in an attempt to limit the ravages of a great evil, they had to weaken or destroy Adonalsium.   This fear of combined power might also be the reason the original shardholders agreed not to inhabit the same planets.

It also makes some interesting parallels between Odium and Taravangian, what with his " the end justifies the means" mentality.

Theory kinda took a different spin, might try to put this together into something bigger later.

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Splintering doesn't really affect the magic systems the shards have caused though. The only way I can see splintering making power accessible to more people is if those people actually take possession of the splinters and draw upon its power directly.

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11 hours ago, Moonrise said:

I would like to know more of the backstory of the Cosmere/Yolen/Silverlight but I suppose that information is a bit of a way off for us. That's okay. I am patient.

God I wish I had your patience, it's only been 4 months since Oathbringer and I'm craving for more, the Cosmere is like a drug. Though I guess it was a bad time to get invested (heh) into the Cosmere considering this year will be a big drought, I'm not experienced in these matters lmao.

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In general, I actually would side with Odium if his purpose was to simply disperse Shardic power and splinter them across systems. But he seems to want to keep himself whole, suggesting that he has some kind of tyrannical aims. Unless he seeks to Splinter himself as the last. But I agree with you @Zellyia , Splintering doesn't seem to be an inherently bad thing (at least if it can be accomplished without literally murdering the Vessel...) and it might actually be the universally benevolent choice, giving power to the people so to speak.

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On 2/27/2018 at 6:13 PM, Zellyia said:

We had Adonalsium whose power then got dispersed to planets via worldhopping shards.  

According to various WOBs (spoilered below for length), Adonalsium's investiture was already distributed across the cosmere, and magic already existed on different planets prior to the Shattering.  However, it was changed by the Shattering.  

 

Spoiler

 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Pre-Shattering magic in books?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's see. I would count the highstorms as that. Highstorm predates the Shattering. Now, the highstorm has been changed dramatically by certain events, but the highstorm does predate the Shattering.

source

 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I was wondering if any of the magic systems that existed before the Shattering, did they get weaker because of it?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Weaker is the wrong term. They were affected.

source

 

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Questioner

What can you tell us about what magic was like in the cosmere before Adonalsium was Shattered?

Brandon Sanderson

Magic was...

Questioner

Was it very different or...

Brandon Sanderson

It was-- I mean-- It was similar, different in some fundamental ways but the things that were done you’ll be able to see other-- You'll be able to see the pieces. source

 

Quote

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

source

 

 

Edited by Scion of the Mists
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember Odium pretty much coming out and telling Dalinar he was not benevolent.

Dalinar asked him what he would do if he was released from his bonds right then and there, and Odium's response was basically that he would murder/Splinter Cultivation then destroy Roshar before moving on.

The whole destroying the planet and killing everyone on it part probably puts the axe to this theory... Assuming he actually said that and I'm not totally making this up

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I'm not suggesting that Odium's a nice guy. 

His motivations, however, may be more complicated than simply trying to squash rivals. 

Take the Lord Ruler: murderous tyrannical jerkface and all around not nice guy. BUT also worked to prevent the destruction of the entire planet.

In fact I'd say there's a lot of characters whose don't want death and chaos, but if it gets them their goal..... 

Hoid told Dalinar the same, about being his friend but would also watch the world crumble to obtain his goals.

Edited by Zellyia
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Well, it looks like no one has posted the WoBs regarding Odium's motivations yet, so I'll go ahead and do that. 

Spoiler
Quote

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambtion, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

source
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Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

source
Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers [Vessels], why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

Questioner (paraphrased)

So by his nature, he can't combine?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

source
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Valhalla (paraphrased)

Did Odium Splinter all the Shards for the same reason?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Some Shards he Splintered because he feared the Shard itself, and some Shards he targeted because he feared the Vessel. He was working his way down his list in order of the Shards and Vessels he felt would be most dangerous to his plans until he got stuck on Roshar.

source
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Paladin Brewer [PENDING REVIEW]

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

source

 

Spoilered for size.

Anyhow, the gist seems to be that Odium is destroying shards because he's afraid of being rivaled and possibly destroyed, and generally speaking he's trying to make the power unusable anyways. Therefore, I think that he's definitely not a secret Robin Hood, at least not intentionally.

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Yeah Odium is clearly not a Raysin Hood. His action could be see as shift between oligarchy to democrazy in the Investiture's management but in the reality from the mortals' pov there is no a noticable difference between an Shard-managed Investiture and Splintered Investiture.

Indeed many suffers from unmanaged Investiture. It could turns Realm as inabitable (Sel's CR) and seal of people (always Sel's CR).

A good manager is a good things for investiture, and Investiture agrees with that as He would turn in its own manager without a good candidate XD

Edited by Yata
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Thanks for posting those WoB, they're pretty clear that Rayse is just trying to eliminate rivals.

Though there are some interesting tidbits in there about the nature of Odium or Rayse, especially given what we learn about him from OB. But that's for a different topic (wow it's hard not to ramble when discussing the cosmere).

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Ignore this quote box, can't figure out how to delete it >_>

 

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35 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

Thanks for posting those WoB, they're pretty clear that Rayse is just trying to eliminate rivals.

Though there are some interesting tidbits in there about the nature of Odium or Rayse, especially given what we learn about him from OB. But that's for a different topic (wow it's hard not to ramble when discussing the cosmere).

 

The WoBs mainly say that he targets shards or vessels that would oppose him. So what is the plan he has that they would oppose? If that plan is maximum splintering to make sure Adonalsium is never reformed, then it is clear that he is evil from Hoid's point of view (who many suspect is working on reforming Adonalsium). But seen from someone who thinks concentrated power is dangerous, he might be considered as working for the greater good.

The shards he previously targetted would fit to that at least. Ambition sounds like a shard that might really try to conquer other shards and then two shards who already intermingled on the same planet which both had a kind of Unity as theme (one by conquering/dominating, the other by love/devotion).

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4 hours ago, AIAndy said:

The WoBs mainly say that he targets shards or vessels that would oppose him. So what is the plan he has that they would oppose? If that plan is maximum splintering to make sure Adonalsium is never reformed, then it is clear that he is evil from Hoid's point of view (who many suspect is working on reforming Adonalsium). But seen from someone who thinks concentrated power is dangerous, he might be considered as working for the greater good.

The shards he previously targetted would fit to that at least. Ambition sounds like a shard that might really try to conquer other shards and then two shards who already intermingled on the same planet which both had a kind of Unity as theme (one by conquering/dominating, the other by love/devotion).

 

His plan is the death of the other shards so he can be the only god. His targets are others that will try the same thing, such as Ambition, or those that are breaking rules, as an excuse. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

source

And considering Odium's apparent fondness for war, after his enemies are dead I'm sure he'll set mortals against each other as per his mandate of inspiring hatred. So I would definately classify Odium as a baddie, not robin hood.

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1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

 

His plan is the death of the other shards so he can be the only god. His targets are others that will try the same thing, such as Ambition, or those that are breaking rules, as an excuse. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

source

And considering Odium's apparent fondness for war, after his enemies are dead I'm sure he'll set mortals against each other as per his mandate of inspiring hatred. So I would definately classify Odium as a baddie, not robin hood.

While this might be the case, that WoB is not the exact words so there might be some misunderstanding. Even if it is exact, it does not say why he wants to be the only shard. Is the motivation maximum splintering for whatever perceived greater good or is the motivation to dominate everything and play games with mortals afterwards (which imo sounds quite cliche).

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50 minutes ago, AIAndy said:

While this might be the case, that WoB is not the exact words so there might be some misunderstanding. Even if it is exact, it does not say why he wants to be the only shard. Is the motivation maximum splintering for whatever perceived greater good or is the motivation to dominate everything and play games with mortals afterwards (which imo sounds quite cliche).

You're right, that one could be interpreted differently. I could have sworn I'd seen another one that more bluntly put Odium's goal was to be the only one at his power level, but I can't find it now. 

 

Found it!

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers [Vessels], why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

Questioner (paraphrased)

So by his nature, he can't combine?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

source
Spoiler

CaptainRyan [PENDING REVIEW]

Did Odium intentionally cause direct harm to the inhabitants of Sel or was his sole focus taking down Devotion and Dominion? (Context: I'd like to know if Odium cares/has any interest in mortals or if he only has designs/plans for Shards)

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It was all side effect. He is focused on Shards... But he does have secondary interest in mortals.

source

So from these two quotes we can see that Odium wants to destroy all other Shards, and only has a secondary interest in mortals. He'd kill the other shards even if people weren't around, so his motive can't be spreading power to people. And if his goal was to prevent the return of Adonalisium, the other shards are probably on board with that considering they helped in Adon's death, so there's no reason to kill them. Additionally Brandon has described Odium as selfish. With all that, sole god of the cosmere seems like his most likely goal.

Edited by Wandering Investor
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@Zellyia I wasn’t aware you were part of Odium’s PR department! :P

Just kidding, I’m sure that’s not the case.

Probably.

To make the crude metaphor of spreading out a shard’s power via splintering being like communism:

Generally communism entails dividing up the wealth of the few and splitting it between everybody. Also, communist nations generally end up with a dictatorship or oligarchy that keeps the wealth and power, instead of redistributing it.

So you could argue Rayse is being the communist leader the cosmere never asked for by spreading shard’s power around (except his own).

 

Edited by Mistspren
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20 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Found it!

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers [Vessels], why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

Questioner (paraphrased)

So by his nature, he can't combine?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

source

  Reveal hidden contents

CaptainRyan [PENDING REVIEW]

Did Odium intentionally cause direct harm to the inhabitants of Sel or was his sole focus taking down Devotion and Dominion? (Context: I'd like to know if Odium cares/has any interest in mortals or if he only has designs/plans for Shards)

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It was all side effect. He is focused on Shards... But he does have secondary interest in mortals.

source

So from these two quotes we can see that Odium wants to destroy all other Shards, and only has a secondary interest in mortals. He'd kill the other shards even if people weren't around, so his motive can't be spreading power to people. And if his goal was to prevent the return of Adonalisium, the other shards are probably on board with that considering they helped in Adon's death, so there's no reason to kill them. Additionally Brandon has described Odium as selfish. With all that, sole god of the cosmere seems like his most likely goal.

Thank you. That confirms that his intention is to be the only shard, but the question remains why. I consider it unlikely that he wants to spread the power to the people, but he might want to remove all gods to avoid any such power. So he picked the shard most suited to that plan. Eventually he wants to be the only god, hated by all for interfering whenever someone assembles too much investiture (but staying in the background otherwise).

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1 hour ago, AIAndy said:

Thank you. That confirms that his intention is to be the only shard, but the question remains why. I consider it unlikely that he wants to spread the power to the people, but he might want to remove all gods to avoid any such power. So he picked the shard most suited to that plan. Eventually he wants to be the only god, hated by all for interfering whenever someone assembles too much investiture (but staying in the background otherwise).

My opinion is that it's something of an unintentional side effect, the mix of the direction the shard wants to go with Rayse's personality and how he interprets it. To say that he wants to be the only god is a bit inaccurate I would say. It's more of the fact that he just he's afraid of being changed or beaten, and the easiest way for him to lessen that fear is by making the other shards, the only entities in the Cosmere which could rival and oppose him in terms of direct power, unusable. So the why is that he's afraid of others and change, not that he wants power.

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On 3/3/2018 at 9:02 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

My opinion is that it's something of an unintentional side effect, the mix of the direction the shard wants to go with Rayse's personality and how he interprets it. To say that he wants to be the only god is a bit inaccurate I would say. It's more of the fact that he just he's afraid of being changed or beaten, and the easiest way for him to lessen that fear is by making the other shards, the only entities in the Cosmere which could rival and oppose him in terms of direct power, unusable. So the why is that he's afraid of others and change, not that he wants power.

I would say both are true. He wants to kill the other gods to prevent any competition and danger to himself. But that doesn't mean he can't want power at the same time. The two goals align pretty well.

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15 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

I would say both are true. He wants to kill the other gods to prevent any competition and danger to himself. But that doesn't mean he can't want power at the same time. The two goals align pretty well.

Not really, because his main desire of not changing prevents him from taking the powers of the shards he kills. So the two goals are slightly exclusive. At best, he can be the only entity of single-shard power in the Cosmere, but he can never gain any more power past that. 

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3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Not really, because his main desire of not changing prevents him from taking the powers of the shards he kills. So the two goals are slightly exclusive. At best, he can be the only entity of single-shard power in the Cosmere, but he can never gain any more power past that. 

Perhaps I didn't word it correctly. Its not that he wants power, he already has that. But he wants to be the most powerful. He can't take other shards, so the only way to accomplish that goal is to bring everyone else down. Simultaneously, doing so clears out his rivals and anyone who poses a threat to him. In that way, both goals can align.

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