Hemalurgic Bind Points

[Nohadon]

So, been on the Cosmere reddit page. and people seem to think they KNOW where the bind points are on the body. with (from what I've seen) these being "common knowledge"

Mental Allomancy: Earlobe (Vin's earring)

Physical Allomancy: Heart/Chest (Zane's spike, Spook's spike)

Temporal Allomancy: ???

Enhancement Allomancy: ???

I think this is wrong. because (A) we only see this from people who have BEEN spiked and (B) it just Doesn't add up. there are cases of people being spiked with the "known" attributes in different places. so here is my theory on bind-points:

1. The bind points are only involved in the STEALING of attributes, not the giving of it, with inquisitors having spikes of steel in the eyes, and Zane being spiked through the chest.

2. Where they are gifted DO matter, but they give different attributes, like how being spiked through the eye gives steel-vision and being spiked through the chest gives enhanced steelpushing powers.

3. The metal matters, but the INTENT matters more. I think each allomatic/feruchemical metal steals the "human" power AND can steal the matching allomantic/feruchemical abilities, depending on the intent of the spike.

PS: I think that the "evil faceless immortal" seen at the end of Alloy of Law ISN'T a hemalurgic construct. but of odium, I think he  (and his proxies) are working on scadrial at the time of BoM. and the set matches his goals. but more on that in another theory.

[RShara]

I only have a second here, but I think for 3--we have a WoB that each spike can only hold one attribute at a time.  Also, for Odium, I just don't think that SA5 is going to end with Odium free to go to other systems and meddle again, and we know that Era 2 happens after SA 5.

I think I agree with you on 1 and 2, but I'll have to clarify later

Edit:

Okay, so I think you're right that intent and bind points really only matter when trying to steal the power.  We see this often, and we have several WoBs about it.

And I agree that the location that the spike is placed is much much less important.  We have had spikes in earlobes, I think in an arm? As well as in the chest for multiple people, in the shoulders and chest? for koloss and I have no idea where they are for kandra. 

So it seems like as long as the spike is charged, location for additional powers isn't too important.  The heart does seem to be the preferred location.  Perhaps it's strongest if the spike sits in the heart? Location for granting sapience might be important--koloss seem to need their spikes in specific places, at least.  Kandra....are still weird.

I think the steelpushing and the steelvision are pretty much the same thing.  That is, they get the vision and the pushing from the same spikes (in the eyes).  It would be kinda weird for those to be different things, since you can't really steelpush if you can't see the metal lines.  But the power granted I think is intrinsic to the spike in question, depending on what the person who did the spiking Intended to steal. 

So I guess I agree with you on 1, half agree with you on 2, and would like to discuss 3, because I think there's a WoB that disputes it.  And I really don't think that Odium is going to manage to meddle in any system other than Roshar for the foreseeable future, unless book 5 of SA ends in a really big screw up :l

Edited February 25, 2018 by RShara

[GiveMeASpren(I'mCrazy)]

When Spook was spiked in the arm, it says that Ruin guided the placement so that it would go in in a position that would work - conclusively showing that bind points of some kind are need to gain the power (sorry to spike your bubble).

[Storms!]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 2:11 AM, RShara said:

I think the steelpushing and the steelvision are pretty much the same thing.  That is, they get the vision and the pushing from the same spikes (in the eyes).  It would be kinda weird for those to be different things, since you can't really steelpush if you can't see the metal lines. 

Inquisitors have it in the eye but BoM spoiler:

Spoiler

Wax's uncle had it in the chest

I think the reference to steelvision here is about how Marsh describes being able to see the trace metals in everything around him (which doesn't happen to normal users of steel) and that's how he can see, since he doesn't actually have eyes anymore.

So normal steelpushing you see normally, but get the lines when burning the metal, where eye-spiked steelvision you can only see via steellines, but the steelvision is much more powerful/detailed

[RShara]

22 minutes ago, Storms! said:

Inquisitors have it in the eye but BoM spoiler:

  Hide contents

Wax's uncle had it in the chest

I think the reference to steelvision here is about how Marsh describes being able to see the trace metals in everything around him (which doesn't happen to normal users of steel) and that's how he can see, since he doesn't actually have eyes anymore.

So normal steelpushing you see normally, but get the lines when burning the metal, where eye-spiked steelvision you can only see via steellines, but the steelvision is much more powerful/detailed

Ohhh I see what you mean now.  Sorry!  Hmmmm that's interesting indeed.

[MPHRD]

28 minutes ago, Storms! said:

Inquisitors have it in the eye but BoM spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Wax's uncle had it in the chest

 

Yea my interpretation of binding point placement is they are not necessary but make things work better. Like if you have the spikes in the wrong place the Spirit Web is more likely to get warped in bad ways. Like if your getting one power spike, it probably does not matter where it is, but if your making something like an inquisitor that its important you put the spikes in the right places. The right places probably also give more benefits, like allomantic vision for inquisitors. It also seems that spikes change things in different ways then just what the attribute gives, look at koloss, they are not just a 5X strong person. I bet if you put those same spikes in different places you get something different then a koloss. But we don't know enough about Hemalurgy yet to know for sure. 

[Storms!]

29 minutes ago, MPHRD said:

I bet if you put those same spikes in different places you get something different then a koloss. But we don't know enough about Hemalurgy yet to know for sure. 

We do know that doing this is insanely complex. The Lord Ruler had a whole laboratory for experimenting with this, and never managed to make anything other that the Inquisitors, Koloss and Kandra, which he learned about when he held the power of the Well. So 1000 years of experimenting with no good results.

Basically, you're not creating any stable hemalurgic beasts without help from Ruin's Vessel (good luck).

 

As a side note, I remember Marsh saying that the internal organs of Inquisitors move around as part of the process. Like his heart was in his gut or something. I don't remember specifically what moved where

[Calderis]

We don't know what the bind points I  the eye do, but spikes in the eyes are not required for metalsight. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

source

I think the bindpoints that are known are extremely important, and at least by the inquisitors were only used for placing spikes. They seemed to treat the heart as  a universal theft point (which it's not... But it has a lot of bond points close together.) 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Calderis

[Storms!]

I wonder if you need to become blind to be able to do that, or if you could accomplish the same by closing your eyes (and practicing a lot)

[The One Who Connects]

44 minutes ago, Storms! said:

I wonder if you need to become blind to be able to do that, or if you could accomplish the same by closing your eyes (and practicing a lot)

Brandon does say "any Allomancer with access to steel or iron." I personally think of it a a savant perk(so far).

The main reason Inquisitors end up doing it is because their eyes are gone, so they have to use the only other method of "sight" they know. They probably became savants in under a week, since they were quite literally constantly burning/flaring it.

[Storms!]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I personally think of it a a savant perk(so far).

I think you're definitely on the right track, but Brandon has said that Wax is a steel savant (or becoming one), but he doesn't see like that. That's why I think that eyesight is involved. Being blind probably makes the process easier/quicker, but an Allomancer could probably accomplish the same thing by practicing long enough with their eyes closed

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Storms! said:

but Brandon has said that Wax is a steel savant (or becoming one), but he doesn't see like that.

Brandon has also considered backtracking on that statement. Spoilers b/c text wall.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on Savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

[Storms!]

@The One Who Connects Wow, that's an interesting WoB. I can see why he's having so much trouble for Wax though. The other two big examples make logical sense. Tin enhances your sense so much that you become dependent on it (almost like a drug addiction) and your senses barely work without it. When you Soulcast too often, parts of you start to slip permanently into the CR. Both make sense.

What's the equivalent for Steel though? It's not like his legs are going to wither from lack of use (he still walks around regularly) and he doesn't need to slip between realms to use either of his powers. The only thing I can think of is to treat it like an addiction. Give him cold sweats/the shakes when he doesn't have a little burning.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Storms! said:

@The One Who Connects Wow, that's an interesting WoB. I can see why he's having so much trouble for Wax though. The other two big examples make logical sense. Tin enhances your sense so much that you become dependent on it (almost like a drug addiction) and your senses barely work without it. When you Soulcast too often, parts of you start to slip permanently into the CR. Both make sense.

What's the equivalent for Steel though? It's not like his legs are going to wither from lack of use (he still walks around regularly) and he doesn't need to slip between realms to use either of his powers. The only thing I can think of is to treat it like an addiction. Give him cold sweats/the shakes when he doesn't have a little burning.

We've discussed this a few times on the Discord, and there's plenty of possibilities. 

You could make him attain steelsight and his vision starts failing so he has to burn steel to "see." 

You could have the spiritual "glow" of metal start manifesting so that differentiating between some objects in high metal concentration areas becomes difficult, like hoe the Shards are impeded. 

Or something completely different that Brandon thinks up. It would just need to relate to the power he uses and be a detriment.

[Storms!]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

You could make him attain steelsight and his vision starts failing so he has to burn steel to "see." 

You could have the spiritual "glow" of metal start manifesting so that differentiating between some objects in high metal concentration areas becomes difficult, like hoe the Shards are impeded. 

This actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that.

 

Any speculation on other metals? I'm curious what something like Bendalloy would do

[Landis963]

2 hours ago, Storms! said:

Any speculation on other metals? I'm curious what something like Bendalloy would do. 

Have it mess with his perception of time.  Something similar could be done with Cadmium, but in the opposite direction.  

[Nohadon]

so, we got a little off topic here, but back to the original theory, maybe the Bind points give DIFFERENT bonuses as well as the original, like how the Eyes give steelvision, we can see at the last bit of BoM that 

Spoiler

Kelsier has one steel spike in ONE eye, and only HALF of his vision is steel

So maybe depended on where the spikes are and how they alter the body, you can have additional or different side effects, similar to hemalurgic constructs. being spiked in the eyes changes your perception of things, etc, etc.

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, Nohadon said:

so, we got a little off topic here, but back to the original theory, maybe the Bind points give DIFFERENT bonuses as well as the original, like how the Eyes give steelvision, we can see at the last bit of BoM that 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier has one steel spike in ONE eye, and only HALF of his vision is steel

So maybe depended on where the spikes are and how they alter the body, you can have additional or different side effects, similar to hemalurgic constructs. being spiked in the eyes changes your perception of things, etc, etc.

That's just it though. "half of his vision"  was steel because an eye was gone. There's no half metalsight. There was just a missing eye. 

Metalsight is not because of the spike. It's a technique to be learned. 

Hemalurgic constructs are not twisted as a side effect of the spikes. They're twisted because of the way that their spiritweb is altered directly because of the spikes. 

The bind points that are know are points in the body that a spike can be placed to assimilate the power that contains the appropriate trait. Spikes can only hold one trait. There's no additional effect by where it's placed, it's only placed correctly and assimilated granting the corresponding power/twisting the person in the desired fashion, or it fails and either does nothing or causes problems.

We don't know what the bindpoint in the eye does, but I'm betting it has to do with Connection. He only has one spoke, and he already had steel as a Mistborn. That spike has to be the way he's regained his body, regardless of which theory of how he did it you subscribe to. 

Steel wouldn't do that. 

[Storms!]

The actual bands were described as being a swirl of several different metals that were able to make the holder into a Fullborn. I assumed his eye spike was the same way.

This way he would get all of the powers, but his soul is only spiked once, so no one can seize control of him

[Spoolofwhool]

On 2/28/2018 at 7:29 AM, Storms! said:

The actual bands were described as being a swirl of several different metals that were able to make the holder into a Fullborn. I assumed his eye spike was the same way.

This way he would get all of the powers, but his soul is only spiked once, so no one can seize control of him

That would still count as multiple spikes, therefore creating multiple graftings and holes in the soul where they attached the power to it. 

Regarding the main discussion. From my understanding, there are specific bindpoints for stealing attributes and specific bindpoints for attaching attributes, but there isn't just one point for each attribute. For example, steel has two known attachment points, the eye and the center of the chest. I do think that the bindpoint, either at the point of stealing or attaching or both, can affect how the power affects the person it is attached to.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

For example, steel has two known attachment points, the eye and the center of the chest.

I feel like I missed something. When  was the eye confirmed as steel? 

[Nohadon]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I feel like I missed something. When  was the eye confirmed as steel? 

It was never confirmed, but it seems given seeing how steel inquisitors have steel spikes in their eyes

Edited March 4, 2018 by Nohadon

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Nohadon said:

It was never confirmed, but it seems given seeing how steel inquisitors have steel spikes in their eyes

Nothing in hemalurgy is a given. The inquisitors experimented for a thousand years and discovered absolutely nothing about hemalurgy that Rashek didn't learn at the well. 

[Nohadon]

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Nothing in hemalurgy is a given. The inquisitors experimented for a thousand years and discovered absolutely nothing about hemalurgy that Rashek didn't learn at the well. 

fair point. but the steel spikes is PART of the things that Rashek learned

[Calderis]

Just now, Nohadon said:

fair point. but the steel spikes is PART of the things that Rashek learned

They are. We know they were used for inquisitors. I'm just saying that we don't have confirmation of what those spikes grant. 

Whatever it is, it has to be part of how Kel has his body. Steel shouldn't be capable of that. 

And in the case of inquisitors, removing both spikes kills them. I don't know what that/those bindpoints do, but I think it's more complicated than just steel Allomancy.