[OB] Origin of the Shardblades - Theorycrafting

[+TheFoxQR]

Theory: Ishar, possibly with the help of some other heralds and spren, created the first Shardblades and laid the foundation for the Nahel Bond, Ideals, and the Knights Radiant.

Basically, I think that the Heralds were looking into better tools, weapons, and tech to help their people survive the desolations. Someone had the bright idea of mimicking the Honorblades (because its not like someone trying to imitate soulcutting powergiving indestructible swords hasn't happened before in known Cosmere history - looking at you, Vasher). Ishar either knew how Honorblades worked or he figured it out, and realised that if certain spren could theoretically manifest in the physical realm, it could work (Why these spren, though? Maybe because Honorblades were made up of a chunk of Honor's investiture. If this new weapon was to be made in some sizeable quantity, then such chunks would need to be found in nature like any other resource. Cue, sapient spren.) But since said spren were actual, living, thinking, sapient beings whom Ishar had to convince to become tools of mass destruction, Ishar had to devise a method by which they themselves would choose who they bond with, with this chosen person then being their pathway into the physical realm. Also, such power was too much to simply give away to anyone, since it is implied that the humans destroyed their previous home with surgebinding, and the Heralds being privy to this information meant that they would input some sort of check. One more thing to note is that since much was lost in the desolations, the Heralds would also be looking to pass on some sort of law or codex through between desolations, if only to keep the Humans firmly following Honor and Cultivation, and not fall under Odium's influence again. All of this culminated into the founding of the Radiant Orders. Perhaps it was also Ishar who made the spren promise not to bond with the Parsh, since this would give the strength of Honorblades to the enemy as well.

I like this because it requires Ishar to have certain characteristics that he is implied to have in the books anyway, and the implications are vast. For example, it means that the Surges and surge pairs are actually seperate from the Knight Radiant concept. As in, there are other ways to access the surges, which the Humans once knew about and probably used to destroy Ashyn. Also, since WoB states the Honorblades were prototypes, it could be that it was Ishar and the Heralds who actually created or proposed creating Honorblades to Honor.

The theory is also corraborated by the fact that atleast one other Herald (Nale), considered Ishar the authority on Knight Radiants and the Final Desolation.

If this theory is true, it means that the Knights Radiant were an answer/solution by the Heralds to multiple problems at the same time. They were a weapon against the enemy, a means to make the people aspire to Honorable ideals, an extension of the Herald's reach across Roshar and even between desolations, and a knot that tied mankind and sprenkind together against Odium.

It also explains why the Parsh would think the Humans could give something to the spren that they couldn't. They were aware of the fact that changing forms involves attracting spren. From what they could see, the Humans were also attracting spren and gaining something in the process. Since these spren were expressly forbidden from going to the Parsh, and given the differences in their physiology and capability (like how the humans couldn't hear the Rhythms), and given how the Human-spren bonds manifested differently compared to Parsh-spren bonds, it would not be a big leap to assume that the spren got something from the humans that the Parsh simply could not give.

Some questions: How much does Jasnah know of this, since she has spent time in the cryptic homecity? Are there leaders among the 9 radiant spren types (discounting the Bondsmith Godspren) who have a list of symptoms to look out for to recognise an approaching desolation and send out their people to look for and bond with prospects? And how does the Oathpact factor into this?

Sources: 

Spoiler

He was before the Windrunners. He was Jezrein, a man whose powers bore no name. They were simply him. The Windrunners were named only after Ishar founded the orders.

"Ishi'Elin," Dalinar said. "Herald of Luck."

Or of mysteries, the Stormfather said, or of priests. Or of a dozen other things, as men dubbed him. He is now as mad as the rest. More, perhaps.

Spoiler

WoB from the Arcanum (Cut some bits)

Brandon Sanderson

... 

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

...

source

Spoiler

Another WoB

Questioner

I'm guessing it's a RAFO, but why do Honorblades work the way they do?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades were crafted before Shardblades existed...

Questioner

So they were crafted.

Brandon Sanderson

They were crafted before Shardblades existed, and all Shardblades that exist came about as certain individuals trying to find out how to copy Honorblades.

...

source

Spoiler

WoB again.

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

Spoiler

The Arcanum is an incredible tool.

Questioner

What was the reason for choosing the base form of Shardblades as blades, why not another form? Was it because of the spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Why was the base form of Shardblades chosen to as blades, as swords? It’s because the Shardblades were devised--I can’t spoil the second book--They were devised as imitations of the Honorblades, which were created and given to the heralds. And so since the original pattern was the Honorblades, they were built to feel like the Honorblades.

source

Spoiler

Millennium

Do Honorblades have the same sort of relationship to Honor (possibly to a much greater degree) that Shardblades do?

Brandon Sanderson

You're on the right track.

source

Spoiler

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Do the Honorblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.

source

Spoiler

Rybal

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their [Honor]Blades, and if not are they under the same restrictions the Radiants are?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] I will say that the Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you are familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do, but they are incapable of the powers you are familiar with throughout the book.

source

 

Edit: I'm going to try and explain how this works in my head in a different way. My guess is that the Honorblades were made by Honor making a connection to the Heralds, and then pushing a chunk of his Investiture through this connection into the physical realm, manifesting it as a blade. One part in the design of this blade is that it can "connect" to the spiritweb of individual people, and through this connection grant them the ability to use the Surge-pairs. Another important aspect is that these blades do not always exist in the physical realm, but are held in the cognitive/spiritual and can use their connection to this individual to enter the physical realm at the individual's behest.

So when trying to imitate this design, one needed a chunk of investiture, preferably of Honor, and make it form a bond with an individual of a similar kind to that of an Honorblade. My guess is that certain communities of sapient spren already existed in the Cognitive realm, and Ishar went to them, and designed a method by which these spren could from bonds. And since becoming a shardblade was the spren putting themselves at risk of death, Ishar also gave them the power to choose whom to bond. Perhaps the Ideals came from this requirement. Perhaps the individual needed to be "broken" in the first place for the spren to be able to bond with them. And in this inital pact, perhaps Ishar also put in a requirement that the Spren not bond with the Parsh in this manner, as at this time, the Parsh were an enemy of Mankind.

Edited February 20, 2018 by TheFoxQR

[insert_anagram_here]

On 2/19/2018 at 4:33 PM, TheFoxQR said:

So when trying to imitate this design, one needed a chunk of investiture, preferably of Honor, and make it form a bond with an individual of a similar kind to that of an Honorblade.

Could Stormlight work instead of Honor's investiture? There has to be a reason they added the gems on the dead Shardblades right?

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Could Stormlight work instead of Honor's investiture? There has to be a reason they added the gems on the dead Shardblades right?

Navani answers this in book. I don't remember of its in tWoK or WoR.

Prior to gems being added the blades could not be dismissed. Someone attempted to add a gem to the blade out of a desire for ostentation and the blade changed shape to accommodate the gem. 

The ability to bond blades was discovered through "an accident of ornamentation." 

[+TheFoxQR]

12 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Could Stormlight work instead of Honor's investiture? There has to be a reason they added the gems on the dead Shardblades right?

Stormlight is just a form of investiture, like Breath. My guess is, you'd need a lot of Stormlight to make Spren-level chunks of investiture. Impossibly huge amounts. Now that you ask though, which shard does Stormlight come from?

 

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Navani answers this in book. I don't remember of its in tWoK or WoR.

Prior to gems being added the blades could not be dismissed. Someone attempted to add a gem to the blade out of a desire for ostentation and the blade changed shape to accommodate the gem. 

The ability to bond blades was discovered through "an accident of ornamentation." 

Yes, but you have to admit the gems are weird. Do they facilitate connection? If yes, then why do the Shardblade holders not gain surges? Or do they do get the surges, but simply do not know they do, just like you need to be told or self realise if something is an Identity-unkeyed metalmind before you can use it?

Perhaps the surges come from the Nahel bond, whereas the gemstones just allow the holder to initiate a Connection with the Spren, which the Spren then uses to jump in and out of the physical Realm.

It is interesting to note that for the Radiants that we have seen, the ability to summon their own shardblades comes after they get access to surges, although this could simply be tied to the maturity of the spren. As in, the spren needs to form the Nahel Bond to be capable enough to manifest in the PR, but once it is there, and stuck there at that, they do not need the entire Nahel bond to go back and forth?

Edited February 21, 2018 by TheFoxQR

[RShara]

15 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

Stormlight is just a form of investiture, like Breath. My guess is, you'd need a lot of Stormlight to make Spren-level chunks of investiture. Impossibly huge amounts. Now that you ask though, which shard does Stormlight come from?

 

Yes, but you have to admit the gems are weird. Do they facilitate connection? If yes, then why do the Shardblade holders not gain surges? Or do they do get the surges, but simply do not know they do, just like you need to be told or self realise if something is an Identity-unkeyed metalmind before you can use it?

Perhaps the surges come from the Nahel bond, whereas the gemstones just allow the holder to initiate a Connection with the Spren, which the Spren then uses to jump in and out of the physical Realm.

It is interesting to note that for the Radiants that we have seen, the ability to summon their own shardblades comes after they get access to surges, although this could simply be tied to the maturity of the spren. As in, the spren needs to form the Nahel Bond to be capable enough to manifest in the PR, but once it is there, and stuck there at that, they do not need the entire Nahel bond to go back and forth?

Because the spren isn't alive enough to a degree that it would be able to grant surges.  It doesn't have enough of itself left to bond to your spiritweb and change it to grant surgebinding.  The gem allows you to Connect to it enough to revive it a tiny tiny bit, is all.

[+TheFoxQR]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Because the spren isn't alive enough to a degree that it would be able to grant surges.  It doesn't have enough of itself left to bond to your spiritweb and change it to grant surgebinding.  The gem allows you to Connect to it enough to revive it a tiny tiny bit, is all.

Hmmm. Yeah I can see how that would work. These spren literally could have a whole in their spiritweb where they attached to their Radiants. And the Gem allows you to patch in a particular portion of it using your own spiritweb.

 

[Calderis]

17 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Hmmm. Yeah I can see how that would work. These spren literally could have a whole in their spiritweb where they attached to their Radiants. And the Gem allows you to patch in a particular portion of it using your own spiritweb.

Not could. They do. 

Quote

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

source

They have had a piece of themselves ripped out. They aren't complete. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Calderis

[+TheFoxQR]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Not could. They do. 

I hadn't seen that WoB. Thanks!

[Skybreaker156]

21 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

Stormlight is just a form of investiture, like Breath. My guess is, you'd need a lot of Stormlight to make Spren-level chunks of investiture. Impossibly huge amounts. Now that you ask though, which shard does Stormlight come from?

 

Yes, but you have to admit the gems are weird. Do they facilitate connection? If yes, then why do the Shardblade holders not gain surges? Or do they do get the surges, but simply do not know they do, just like you need to be told or self realise if something is an Identity-unkeyed metalmind before you can use it?

Perhaps the surges come from the Nahel bond, whereas the gemstones just allow the holder to initiate a Connection with the Spren, which the Spren then uses to jump in and out of the physical Realm.

It is interesting to note that for the Radiants that we have seen, the ability to summon their own shardblades comes after they get access to surges, although this could simply be tied to the maturity of the spren. As in, the spren needs to form the Nahel Bond to be capable enough to manifest in the PR, but once it is there, and stuck there at that, they do not need the entire Nahel bond to go back and forth?

You find that the highstorms come from the stormfather a splinter of Honor and so I believe that stormlight does as well after seeing in OB the everstorms and the red stormlight the fused use that they got from Odium.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Skybreaker156 said:

You find that the highstorms come from the stormfather a splinter of Honor and so I believe that stormlight does as well after seeing in OB the everstorms and the red stormlight the fused use that they got from Odium.

Except Stormlight predated shattering. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the Stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

There was a following conversation about this topic, about how a lot of the elements were there before Honor arrived, but he co-opted them. So, Stormlight were there, but there are big differences now.

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
source

It's fundamental to the ecology of Roshar, and Roshar was created by Adonalsium. 

Honor did change Stormlight, somehow, but I don't believe it is purely of Honor, just as the Stormfather isn't purely if Honor or the Nightwatcher purely of Cultivation. 

And Voidlight, whatever it is, is a dark violet color. Not red. So whatever it is, it is not just red (co-opted) stormlight.