Investedtothehilt Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 Hello all! Not quite sure how to start this off so I'll just jump right in. First of all, I am very interested in philosophy. Currently, I have a class about ancient Greek philosophy. When we were going over Plato's forms, it struck me that this idea is incredibly similar to the Cognitive Realm. If you're not familiar with the idea, Plato essentially believed that the Forms were what was most real about an object. If you break down a table, it it just made out of wood. However; there is some sort of thing about a table that makes it a table. That "tableness" is distinct from the wood, stone or metal that makes it up. For Plato, there is another realm, a real of ideals, where things such as Justice, Table, Triangle, ect. all exist at their most real. This sounds incredibly similar to the Cognitive realm and I think that may have been a major source of inspiration for Brandon Sanderson. I'm curious to see if he has said anything on the matter. Additionally, it seems this is not the only thing that he has drawn from ancient Greek philosophy. Now, I haven't read all the Cosmere literature at this time, so this may be completely wrong, but here goes. Heraclitus believed that all things were constantly changing. Sanderson has mentioned that Hemalurgic spikes need contact with the blood in order to actually steal power. He mentioned in a Q&A that it has something to do with the blood being in motion. Motion was tied with life for many pre-Socratic philosophers. This idea is still somewhat half-formed, but I think a discussion on it is warranted. It is possible that the spiritual realm is tied with how objects and people change through time. Something else was incredibly important to the pre-Socratic and some post Socratic philosophers. That was the notion of Arkae, or, roughly, what it means to exist. To me, no unifying theory can be complete without asking this question of the Cosmere. Clearly, for something to exist, it needs at least a Cognitive aspect. However; for something to be sentient, it needs a Spiritual aspect. Motion is life. This is supported by how we see Investiture work on Roshar. The Stormlight encourages those who hold it to move. Investiture is the stuff of life. This also follows from what we know of humanity, Investiture is necessary for the existence of humanity. In fact, I would argue that Investiture is Sanderson's Arkae. Without that, there is no connection between the Cognitive and Spiritual realms, and no impact on the physical realm. In this way then, it would seem that actual magic is largely incidental to the way that reality itself exists in the Cosmere. Thank you, if you read through the fruits of my procrastinatory ramblings. I probably got some things wrong, in fact, I hope I did so those can be pointed out and I can learn something new about the Cosmere! I appreciate any thoughts that you have on this mass of a post! Thank you so much! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) Your pretty close, but your swapping the roles of the spiritual and the Cognitive. Quote Kurkistan So, could you give us some examples of how the ideals that spren represent work in other magic systems, like we have Forging where you get plausibility, or Returned how they're beautiful or any other systems? Brandon Sanderson Okay, one more time on that. Kurkistan Okay, so you know the ideals the spren are manifestations-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Kurkistan How-- Do those have impacts on other magic systems? Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes, in the same way the Returned- that's the exact same system at work there. Kurkistan Is it the same reason why the Lord Ruler has to die of old age, and why you can't heal yourself into being an octopus or something? Brandon Sanderson Um... Yes, that is all connected in the exact same way. Kurkistan Okay, so it's all like these highfalutin Spiritual ideals? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Kurkistan And are there like, median Cognitive ideals that gradually kind of influence these, or-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, they transcend between the three. I mean the original concept for the Three Realms is Platonic philosophy. Kurkistan So it goes up *makes absurd reverse-waterfall hand gesture* Brandon Sanderson Yeah, it goes up and it comes back down. A lot of the Cognitive is-- So like, the Cognitive has a bigger effect on how you can heal and things like that. Does that make sense? Kurkistan Yeah. Brandon Sanderson But the power to heal is a actually a Spiritual thing. Kurkistan So it's like the Spiritual says "I want to be like this" and the Cognitive is like "Okay I'll try really hard to be like that, but I have a limit." Brandon Sanderson Right. Right. Filtered through how you see yourself, yeah. source Things in the Cosmere seem to flow outward from the Spiritual Realm to the Physical Realm. The physical requires all three, the Cognitive requires a spiritual, and the spiritual... Don't know if it can exist independently... But as it is the realm of ideals I think some things have to exist there that don't have a defined Cognitive or physical form. Very good catch on your part. Edited February 18, 2018 by Calderis 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Investedtothehilt Posted February 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) So if the cognitive realm is the limit placed on the spiritual realm, it would seem that, if you really, truly see yourself as an octopus, you could heal into one. Unless your "image" in the cognitive realm is impacted by your identity and spirit web? This also has interesting implications for gaining power; if you could change your cognitive aspect, you might be able to become a truly ideal being as determined by the most perfect definition from the spiritual realm. Then again, if you can store identity in a metalmind it might be possible to overwrite your cognitive identity into something else. Or I'm just crazy and this is just the ravings of a madman, which is entirely possible too. Edited February 19, 2018 by Investedtothehilt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 The spiritual realm contains the idealized truth of what something is. So a human will be the ideal version of themselves. As a healing ability flows outward from the Spiritual Realm through the Cognitive, it can act as a limiter, preventing the ideal from being realized, but it can't reshape the power to heal something that isn't contained in that ideal version. So unfortunately, no you can't heal yourself into an octopus. The spiritual aspect can be changed though. Hemalurgy does this. Koloss and the chimeras seen in Era two were people, who's Spiritual selves were altered to become something different. And Savants are another example. Snipped for length, and minor OB spoilers. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259/#e8742 Quote Questioner 1 [PENDING REVIEW] Or is that counteracted by the healing as well? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms-- So with a savant, healing would not fix the things that are wrong with them, because their spiritweb is what has been changed, so according to their "ideal self" there's nothing wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Investedtothehilt said: it would seem that, if you really, truly see yourself as an octopus, you could heal into one. The SR has templates that should prevent that. Quote Brandon Sanderson Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire. Kurkistan And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it. Kurkistan So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? Brandon Sanderson You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track. Kurkistan Okay, so you know the ideals the spren are manifestations-- Do those have impacts on other magic systems? Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes, in the same way the Returned- that's the exact same system at work there. Kurkistan Okay, so it's all like these highfalutin Spiritual ideals? Brandon Sanderson Yes. I mean the original concept for the Three Realms is Platonic philosophy. A lot of the Cognitive is-- So like, the Cognitive has a bigger effect on how you can heal and things like that. Does that make sense? Kurkistan So it's like the Spiritual says "I want to be like this" and the Cognitive is like "Okay I'll try really hard to be like that, but I have a limit." Brandon Sanderson Right. Right. Filtered through how you see yourself, yeah. Kurkistan So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point? Brandon Sanderson You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture. Kurkistan So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like? Brandon Sanderson Well your soul is an ideal. Kurkistan So for Soulcasting—-I talked a lot about those ideals that a lot of things are based on—-is that also like there's an ideal of stone that when you Soulcast stone if you don't do anything special, it just defaults as that? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there will be a default of all of them. Kurkistan And that's the same exact thing as spren and why the Lord Ruler dies of old age and all that stuff? Brandon Sanderson That is-- Yes, that's the same sort of concept. Yes. There'd be a template for Human(or Human Male) that healing a human would try to emulate. It's filtered by your cognitive perception, which is why healed humans aren't cookie-cutter copies of each other. But the level of deviation from the template starts to reach into the realm of plausibility. Quote Kurkistan Are the changing beauty standards of Returned and the "plausibility" of Forgeries determined by the same kind of "cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time" that some types of Spren represent? Brandon Sanderson Yes. These things all work according to the same fundamental framework. On 1/3/2018 at 1:31 PM, The One Who Connects said: Injuries: Yep. It's essentially the same reason Kaladin still has his brands, while [Spoilers] was able to start healing their arm in WoR. Transgender: It.. seems reasonable enough, but this depends on if the Spiritual Realm has Templates for "Male" & "Female," or simply a Template for "Human." If it's the former, then like with aging, you can't do it. Deliberately Warping: ooh boy. Parshendi Fellow: I highly doubt this would work. There should be a separate Spiritual Templates per Species, since Humans, Chulls, and Aviar are vastly distinct species. (Why would they heal from the same primary template?) Horns & a Tail: This, on the other hand, has potential. But it depends on their level of belief. (And the level of believability. Body Hair instead being Fur seems like a small stretch, whereas stuff like suddenly Wings seem way farther from the Spiritual Template) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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