What about the Voidspren and Renarin

[Mileswasbestcharacter]

So this is a comment I made in another thread, but I was really excited about it and wanted to share my theory and see how well it stands.

 

I think renarin is the traitor from the diagram (epigraph from chapter 86) and his spren is Moelach.
Why do I think this?

Starting assumptions:

Renarin has precognition, a know trait of voidbringers. Renarin has his blood sickness, described as some kind of epilepsy. Moelach is a powerful voidspren, specifically with precognition, and taints a body as it breaks apart from the mind (chapter 82, epigraph).

These assumptions have led me to the conclusion that renarin may unwittingly be tainted by void spren, and mistakes his abilities for a manifestation of KR power.

Also can't find page, Taravangian says something about Moelach leaving his area of operations, causing death rattles to become more rare.

 

Discuss!

[Armless writer]

Nahel spren that bond with the Knights Radiant are a mix between honor and cultivation splinters and quite a few the theories point to renarins order being the most cultivationy (the double eye theory) and cultivation was better at predicting the future than honor.

[name_here]

Renarin apparently hears his Shardblade scream when he touches it. I don't think someone bonded to a voidspren would do that. Also, his precognition was a major motivation for the offensive that found the Oathgate.While it did leave the army exposed to the Everstorm, it would have happened eventually anyway.

[Numb]

What basis have you for saying that precognition is a known trait of Voidbringers? I thought only Vorinsm believes that to see the future is to be of the Voidbringers and from everything we have gathered about the religion it stands to reason that that is rubbish too. Also from what we have seen the location of these spren matter so with Renarin being all the way on the Shattered Plain where we haven't seen any death rattles where as Taravangian  is seeing them currently the distance is just too great.

[skaa]

Renarin calls his spren (who is male, by the way) "Glys". It's probably a nickname, like "Syl" for Sylphrena.

 

I don't think Glys is an Unmade. A force of hatred with a scary name like "Moelach" or "Daigonarthis" probably won't use a nickname, certainly not a girly-sounding one like "Glys".

[Shardbearer]

I agree, Renarin is a voidbinder, though I don't think he is bonded to Moelach. Precognition doesn't seem to match any of ther surges listed in the Ars Arcanum.

 

The reason KR hear screaming when they touch a Blade is because the spren is locked in a state of torment. I think someone bound to a voidspren would be able to hear this, too.

[synobal]

Renarin apparently hears his Shardblade scream when he touches it. I don't think someone bonded to a voidspren would do that. Also, his precognition was a major motivation for the offensive that found the Oathgate.While it did leave the army exposed to the Everstorm, it would have happened eventually anyway.

 

The problem with that is that it isn't confirmed, Kaladin just sort of says it and Renarin agrees. I think he is a deep spy myself. His whole role in the book basically passively does stuff to hinder everyone. Also joining bridge 4 so early, he's positioned really well to strike. 

[Lugonn]

Renarin has precognition, a know trait of voidbringers

 

 

A trait considered by the Vorin church to be of voidbringers.

 

In reality it's also a trait of Cultivation and to some extent of Honor.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Lugonn

[Numb]

I don't see why people think Precognition must be of Unmade/Oduim. Honor states that Cultivation was always better at seeing the future than him and Renarin says he is a Truthwatcher which is Illumination/Progression which might put it very close to cultivation side. His behaviour also seems to mirror that which is in the section about truthwatchers(Never fully explaining actions, esoteric). 

 

I find it hard to believe Renarin is some kind of evil spy from all what we have read about him. He just desperately wants to be normal like everyone else. In a way he's similar to Shallan but instead of lying to himself he just doesn't accept who he is.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Numb

[Cayden]

The Vorin church which just happened to be very anti Knights Radiant and everything about them. But perhaps their is truth behind it to an extent. What if Odium used to give people visions of the future to make them lay the path for him to come and Desolate the world?

 

Perhaps the Truthwatchers are as much about filtering out Odium's influence regarding visions of the future as everything else. If they can see Odium's future's as well as Honor/Cultivations then they might have to be the ones to decypher the "truth"

 

The death rattles are of Odium afterall, and they are all future events. so I think it likely that he might well be seeing the future from Odium, but that his spren bond is not yet strong enough to protect him from it.

[name_here]

Personally, I am thoroughly unconvinced that the Diagram is referring to the present Radiants when saying that. It's pretty clear the Diagram does not predict the precise identities of the present Radiants. By context from prior epigraphs from the same segment, it's probably talking about either the Unmade or the Heralds.

 

So I guess it could actually be referring to Renarin's spren betraying Odium.
 

 

His whole role in the book basically passively does stuff to hinder everyone.

 

This is patently false. He was responsible for providing the countdown, convincing Dalinar to move into the Shattered Plains, kill the Parshendi before they completed the Everstorm song and thus weakened it, and locate the Oathgate. Absent his intervention, the Parshendi would have been able to strike the Warcamps with the completed Everstorm song, transformed their Parshmen, and likely obliterated the entire Alethi army in a single stroke. His precognition has already literally saved the world.

 

 

A trait considered by the Vorin church to be of voidbringers.

 

In reality it's a trait of Cultivation and to some extent of Honor.

Well, it is a trait of Moelach. But it's also a trait of Endowment, Preservation, and Cultivation for sure, most likely Honor, and probably other Shards as well.

[Numb]

He also helped save his brother Adolin by distracting one of the 4 men fighting before Kaladin got there. If Renarin is actually evil he might be the worst evil person I've ever seen.

[FeatherWriter]

Yeah, I reaaaaaaaally don't think that Renarin's got a voidspren. But anyone who's ever talked to me before would not find that surprising at all. He's selfless, noble, and has a strength of will that I don't think many other characters come close to matching. I don't think that Glys is a voidspren or one of the unmade, and just because Moelach can see the future doesn't mean that he's the only one who can. We have Honor himself saying that he sees the future and that Cultivation sees even better than he does. It's not a "voidish" ability, it's a Shard-related ability.

 

I do think there's more that we need to learn about Renarin of course. I'm willing to be there's something interesting about the fact that he and Glys are both male when all the other pairs (except for Dalinar and the Stormfather, but that's a bit of a different story) are opposite gender pairs. And if we've got Truthfinders arranged correctly, that gives him Growth and Illumination. I'm wondering how exactly he's getting his future sight. Is it a different kind of Illumination than Shallan uses for her lightweaving? Or is there something more going on.

[TomR]

A trait considered by the Vorin church to be of voidbringers.

 

In reality it's also a trait of Cultivation and to some extent of Honor.

 

Not really of Honor, according to Syl:

 

"... Seeing what is to come— it isn’t of Honor, Kaladin. It’s something else. Something dangerous.”

 

Honor does say he has some limited capacity for precognition at the end of book 1, but based on that quote I think it's safe to assume he doesn't provide the ability to others. Cultivation, though, yes.

[Shardbearer]

There are also these two epigraphs that indicate something devious is going on with Renarin:

 

 

The next clue came on the wall. I did not ignore this sign, but neither did I grasp its full implications

 

The sign on the wall proposed a greater danger, even, than it's deadline. To forsee the future is of the Voidbringers.

 

Renarin did the writing on the wall. Is Navani implying that she thinks Renarin has something to do with the Voidbringers?

[IllNsickly]

I believe there is something wrong with Renarin. Somthing bad is going on there, and the only evidence that i have for it is this:

After 2 books, we have yet to see a Renarin PoV, even though he is a proto-radiant and already has a spren. A Spren that NO ONE else sees, that strikes me as ominous as well.

I think, at the very least, Rock would have noticed.....

Edit for a spare thought.

Edited March 14, 2014 by IllNsickly

[Moogle]

Renarin apparently hears his Shardblade scream when he touches it. I don't think someone bonded to a voidspren would do that.

 

Eshonai is a compelling possibility, I think.

 

As to the main point of this thread: Renarin is quite clearly not bonded to a voidspren, given the WoB on how hard it is. You'd have to consistently act pretty horribly to bond with a voidspren, something Renarin does not.

[LightReader]

I really don't think Renarin is bonded to a voidspren. And I can totally see how the surges Progression and Illumination could lead to precognition/clairvoyance. The surge illumination is described in the Ars Arcanum as being not just about light, but about all waveforms which are pretty much all described (in mathematical terms) using time as a variable. Also the very word Progression implies a sense of the future. I definitely think Renarin's future-sight is a Cultivation thing.

[Morsk]

The Almighty does tell Dalinar that to speak of the future is forbidden. Then there's this:

Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally inclined to explanation; and in the case of Corberon’s disagreements, their silence was not a sign of an exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact.

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 11, page 6

This one goes farther, and says they never spoke or wrote of what they did. So I think Renarin is misusing the powers by writing down the predictions where others can find them. It doesn't make the power itself bad. He probably just has to spend Highstorms alone, so that when he's compelled to write things no one else can see them. Then he'll have a burden of using the knowledge without being able to tell anyone about it.

[Numb]

It says they never spoke or wrote of what they did but then it also says they were not inclined to explanation so I think they just gave people certain information without ever telling them how/why. I don't interpret that as them not writing or speaking anything, merely not recording how they got said information or what on earth their order actually does.

[xbauks]

I really doubt Renarin is the traitor. Every shard we have seen so far in the cosmere has some form of precognition. So attributing all forms of precognition to Odium. Brandon has also said that humans bonding to void spren is very difficult.

[Diomedes45]

I agree with the line of thought that Renarin is not bonded to a voidspren/evil.  First the quoted epigraph you rely on in support of your theory - " taints a body as it breaks apart from the mind" - is slightly off, i.e. "His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself."  I take this to mean that Moelach's touch has a chance to enter the body as a person is dying...not at will or when they are alive. 

 

Further, although I understand Hoid doesn't know everything, in Way of Kings he speaks very highly/fondly of Renarin, which (in my opinion), he would not do if Renarin was a traitor or had evil motives.

 

(First time poster)

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Yeah, I reaaaaaaaally don't think that Renarin's got a voidspren. But anyone who's ever talked to me before would not find that surprising at all. He's selfless, noble, and has a strength of will that I don't think many other characters come close to matching. I don't think that Glys is a voidspren or one of the unmade, and just because Moelach can see the future doesn't mean that he's the only one who can. We have Honor himself saying that he sees the future and that Cultivation sees even better than he does. It's not a "voidish" ability, it's a Shard-related ability.

 

I do think there's more that we need to learn about Renarin of course. I'm willing to be there's something interesting about the fact that he and Glys are both male when all the other pairs (except for Dalinar and the Stormfather, but that's a bit of a different story) are opposite gender pairs. And if we've got Truthfinders arranged correctly, that gives him Growth and Illumination. I'm wondering how exactly he's getting his future sight. Is it a different kind of Illumination than Shallan uses for her lightweaving? Or is there something more going on.

 

It could mean that he is gay.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

I really doubt Renarin is the traitor. Every shard we have seen so far in the cosmere has some form of precognition. So attributing all forms of precognition to Odium. Brandon has also said that humans bonding to void spren is very difficult.

 

But not impossible. Remember that he likes to trick us with half answers.

 

[11thorderknight]

First of all, I thought it was established that Dalinar was writing the predictions during the highstorms? Or was Renarin framing Dalinar all along? I might have missed that part.

 

Second, we should remember that Renarin is not the first Truthwatcher we've seen - that would be Ym. Granted, he was around only briefly, and didnt' really know what was what, but he certainly wasn't seeing visions of the future.