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Focuses on Roshar


Chaos

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True, but I would say that says more about the nature of Allomancy than the nature of Focuses in general.

True. Certainly it would be difficult to unconsciously draw an Aon or say a Command. But it does mean that it might be possible to use the Surgebinding focus without it's presence being obvious.

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indeed we know it's possible to use Surgebinding without being aware of it, in a similar way to Allomancy as Kaladin was doing it before he even realized anything unusual was going on, even while semiconscious at best when he was sick.

Hi guys. I have spent the last hour or so reading through the entire three pages of this post and I must say it is quite amazing. Espcially mad scientist he is extremely good at coming up with theories. My theory to add to all of this is as follows. "Honor Spren" is the term used to refer to all ten of the spren that grant Surgebinder powers. It itself is not a specific type of spren but a collective term. Basically we dont know the name of the type of spren that Syl is. Yes she is an Honor Spren, an Honor Spren being a Nahel Bond Spren that grants surgebinding powers. Shallen bonded with a Truth Spren giving her Soulcasting and one other power, truth Spren are one of the ten types, which makes sense since truth can be an aspect of honor. Continuing with my theory I suggest that there are Nahel Bond spren for Voidbinding. Basically the Nahel Bond is a link between a spren and its user(or however you want to word it)and can manifest as Honor Spren in Surgebinding or as Odium spren Voidbinding. If the secongd part of my theory is wrong and Nahel Bond spren are what I am theorizing Honor Spren are then I am still sticking to the first part where Honor Spren is a collective term. This fits in with the book because nobody uses the term Nahel Bond spren in the text, so we wouldnt have two terms for the same thing.

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Ian, I would agree that the Nahel Bond is the bond between Shallan/Truthspren and Kaladin/Syl.

However, I don't think that Honorspren is the name for all spren that make Bonds. I think it's just the name for Syl. Why? Because it seems like the Truthspren care that much about Shallan's honor- just about her truthfullness. I think if they could, they would love to make a Bond with a completely vicious unhonorable person who tells the truth all the time.

Syl, on the other hand, as an Honorspren, would hate being connected to someone like that. She would much rather make a Nahel Bond with Kaladin, who may lie sometimes but is honorable.

"Our own natures destroy us," the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. "Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren."

The Nahel Bond is the bond that gives you the powers of the Knights Radiant, from Windrunning to Soulcasting to whatever else is a power. However, there is a difference between the Nahel Bond and Honor Spren.

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Ian, I would agree that the Nahel Bond is the bond between Shallan/Truthspren and Kaladin/Syl.

However, I don't think that Honorspren is the name for all spren that make Bonds. I think it's just the name for Syl. Why? Because it seems like the Truthspren care that much about Shallan's honor- just about her truthfullness. I think if they could, they would love to make a Bond with a completely vicious unhonorable person who tells the truth all the time.

Syl, on the other hand, as an Honorspren, would hate being connected to someone like that. She would much rather make a Nahel Bond with Kaladin, who may lie sometimes but is honorable.

The Nahel Bond is the bond that gives you the powers of the Knights Radiant, from Windrunning to Soulcasting to whatever else is a power. However, there is a difference between the Nahel Bond and Honor Spren.

I realize that Honor Spren and the Nahel Bond are two different things that is why I used the term Nahel Bond spren, meaning spren involved in a Nahel bond. Also I didnt say Honor Spren is the name for all spren that make bonds just the bonds that make people into surgebinders. I do see your point and I had considered it before I posted my theory but i still cant except the idea that one of the spren that makes up honor's system of magic is honor itself. Windrunners are no different than the rest of the surgebinders so how can they be honor and the rest just aspects of honor?

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I realize that Honor Spren and the Nahel Bond are two different things that is why I used the term Nahel Bond spren, meaning spren involved in a Nahel bond. Also I didnt say Honor Spren is the name for all spren that make bonds just the bonds that make people into surgebinders. I do see your point and I had considered it before I posted my theory but i still cant except the idea that one of the spren that makes up honor's system of magic is honor itself. Windrunners are no different than the rest of the surgebinders so how can they be honor and the rest just aspects of honor?

It's a pretty puzzle. However, I'd like to point to the quote that Zas found:

"Our own natures destroy us," the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. "Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren."

This heavily implies that Alakavish was a surgebinder with a spren which was not an honorspren. Also, I believe that Brandon has confirmed that Soulcasting (what Shallan does) is a subset of surgebinding.

Which leads me to the conclusion that the type of spren providing the Nahel bond is independent of the type of surgebinding someone has.

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It's a pretty puzzle. However, I'd like to point to the quote that Zas found:

This heavily implies that Alakavish was a surgebinder with a spren which was not an honorspren. Also, I believe that Brandon has confirmed that Soulcasting (what Shallan does) is a subset of surgebinding.

Which leads me to the conclusion that the type of spren providing the Nahel bond is independent of the type of surgebinding someone has.

It's likely that:

Nahel bond = what the bond between human and spren (any spren) is called.

Honorspren = Spren specific to Windrunners (evidenced by Kaladin, mostly) and any other Radiant order that used Honor's contribution to Roshar's magic systems.*

So Alakavish could have been a Surgebinder, but not a Windrunner.

*I like the idea that different orders come from a combination of Shard intents. Brandon has described the magic chart in the front of the book by saying you take 1 big glyph and 2 big glyphs to make a Knights Radiant order. 3 glyphs = 3 Shards on Roshar...

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I believe the problem here is that some of you have not read the first pages of this post. Mad scientists and chaos theorize that the type of spren you bond with determines which two of Surgebindings powers you get. meaning there are ten types of spren that make up surgebinding each one giving you a specific set of two powers. zas678 was right when he first posted that quote in response to my post this does seem to put a huge gaping hole in my theory about honor spren being a collective term. It does now seem likely that honor spren are specific to windrunners. This still seems strange to me because then truth spren could act without any honor at all. that seems counter productive considering it is honors magic system. any thoughts on how this could make logical sense?

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It depends on what level you take "Honor" as a name to influence the magic system.

If you say that Honor's power can only be used in Honorable ways, than the Truthspren don't make any sense. Someone can be a horrible person, but be very honest about it.

But we know that this isn't the case, because an Allomancer (using Preservation's power) can do horrible terrible damage (i.e Vin).

Instead, we've learned recently from Brandon that the Name of a Shard doesn't determine the intentions of the magic, it determines the way the magic works for the user. In other words, the Name of a Shard determines the how, not the why.

So, an Allomancer can do terrible damage, but the magic system still works through Preservation- the Allomancer isn't using any of their own energy. Awakeners Endow a piece of their soul into an object, giving it "life".

And Honor's magic, through the spren, works by the people following certain virtues. For Shallan, it's honesty. For Kaladin, it's honor. A certain definition of Honor is keeping commitments that you have kept. Shallan is committed to truth and knowledge, and so she gets Truthspren. Kaladin is committed to honor and protecting, so he gets an Honorspren.

That's how it Probably works. Maybe.

PS-Chaos, I'm a ton more comfortable with the new Intent, with the Name determining the function instead of the Name determining the Intent of the users.

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Hi chaos I'm a big fan of your posts. That does make it seem a bit more logical but the fact that one of the ten spren is honor still seems to be awkward especially in a system governed by symmetry.

I'm not sure that the system is entirely governed by symmetry. I think its more a case of slightly asymmetric elements in a symmetric pattern. Symmetry is beautiful and strived for in nature, but if it existed perfectly I don't think Adonalsium would have shattered in the first place.

Edited by CabbageHead
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I've been thinking...

I think that "honorspren" is a colloquial term which Syl picked up from her past life. I don't think it means the same thing as Honor does when referring to the shard's Intent.

Consider the following hypothetical: The Interlude with the spren-hunter guy indicates that spren are commonly named by their discoverers. Assume for the moment that Syl is more properly called a "protectionspren" (seems reasonable, considering Kaladin's second oath). The first person to interact with a protectionspren would have likely been a Windrunner like Kaladin. To him/her, protecting others and honor would have been indistinguishable. He/she thought of the spren as being connected to his/her honor, so he/she called it an "honorspren". Since protecting others is commonly regarded as honorable, the name stuck.

So in a sense, all the types of spren involved in the Nahel bond are "Honorspren", but only Syl and other Windrunner spren are "honorspren". They all represent facets of honor, but only the Windrunner spren got the name.

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I've been thinking...

I think that "honorspren" is a colloquial term which Syl picked up from her past life. I don't think it means the same thing as Honor does when referring to the shard's Intent.

Consider the following hypothetical: The Interlude with the spren-hunter guy indicates that spren are commonly named by their discoverers. Assume for the moment that Syl is more properly called a "protectionspren" (seems reasonable, considering Kaladin's second oath). The first person to interact with a protectionspren would have likely been a Windrunner like Kaladin. To him/her, protecting others and honor would have been indistinguishable. He/she thought of the spren as being connected to his/her honor, so he/she called it an "honorspren". Since protecting others is commonly regarded as honorable, the name stuck.

So in a sense, all the types of spren involved in the Nahel bond are "Honorspren", but only Syl and other Windrunner spren are "honorspren". They all represent facets of honor, but only the Windrunner spren got the name.

Then you'd have to deal with Nahadon saying that not all spren were as descerning as Honourspren, in reference to sother surgebinders having powers. Obviously more kinds of spren than Nahadon's "Honorspren" can form the bond.

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Then you'd have to deal with Nahadon saying that not all spren were as descerning as Honourspren, in reference to sother surgebinders having powers. Obviously more kinds of spren than Nahadon's "Honorspren" can form the bond.

According to my theory, Nahadon was referring to the colloquial honorspren, just like Syl was.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Isn't it strongly implied in elantris that other people can use the dor without aons? Also did brandon say when he said commandments were the focus that it was the words or the visualisation that is the actual focus? Because words aren't needed for all commands... (10th heightening, and it still requires colour as fuel so it isn't quite like a mistborn being powered by preservation)

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