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[OB]The spren were in on it


RShara

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1 minute ago, Vissy said:

I see your point, but that still leaves you the other half of the Nahel bond - the humans - to account for. Why didn't any of them talk?

Maybe they talked, but Roshar is a wonderful place for knowledge to become lost. Humans didn't even know Shardblades were spren once by the time TWoK starts, and that was surely common knowledge back at the Recreance. And they still don't know for sure how Plate works. I'm always happy to assume any past knowledge missing was destroyed in the chaos of the Recreance, then whipped out by the Hierocracy, then any tidbits left removed by Vorinism.
 

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16 minutes ago, RShara said:

We know that human surgebinders wrecked at least one planet already. 

If Roshar gets destroyed, not only do the humans all die, but the spren too.  To save the lives of all the humans and all the other spren, they agreed on acting out the Recreance, and staying silent about it.  That way, spren wouldn't be willing to bond with humans again for a long time.  Basically until something forced them to again, such as a new Desolation.

And it clearly worked.

Well, I think we have to assume a lot to say that it was Surgebinding that destroyed the planet. Honestly, we don't know if Surgebinding destroyed the planet at all, we just have (second-hand account) of an unreliable narrator telling us it was so, and apparently the Dawnshards are involved somehow too. 

16 minutes ago, RShara said:

...what would they say?  "Hey I know you guys rely on our powers but heh...turns out....we might destroy the planet and all life on it.  So....we're just going to leave you with our super sharp, indestructible, cuts-through-anything Blades, who are really the dead bodies of our soulmates, for you to wreak havoc with, to ensure our Oaths are quite thoroughly broken.  Have fun!"

 

"Oh, and don't tell any of the spren, otherwise they might keep trying to bond with us, and that's a really bad idea. Toodles!"

Well, that's a kind of a silly way to read what I said isn't it. :D The Radiants of the time had friends, didn't they, and loved ones who were not Radiant? Trusted allies and comrades? I find it very hard to believe that all of them kept their silence, and the people they talked to about the Recreance kept theirs, and so on. In fact it is implied that not all Orders took part in the Recreance;

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This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. - WoR Ch.38

So now we have a whole Order of Radiants running around, who know about the Recreance and the reasons behind it, but who choose not to speak. Not a single one. For me, at least, this seems like a plot hole front line and center. OB explained nothing and I can't think of an explanation either, which naturally I hope will be supplied by the fourth book. 

13 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Maybe they talked, but Roshar is a wonderful place for knowledge to become lost. Humans didn't even know Shardblades were spren once by the time TWoK starts, and that was surely common knowledge back at the Recreance. And they still don't know for sure how Plate works. I'm always happy to assume any past knowledge missing was destroyed in the chaos of the Recreance, then whipped out by the Hierocracy, then any tidbits left removed by Vorinism.

True that information could have been lost. How convenient that the single most important piece of information from that time became lost. Maybe you're right, that there was another conspiracy too - a conspiracy to suppress information about the Recreance. That would make sense to me, if someone could stand to gain from it. Skybreakers maybe? 

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2 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Well, that's a kind of a silly way to read what I said isn't it. :D The Radiants of the time had friends, didn't they, and loved ones who were not Radiant? Trusted allies and comrades? I find it very hard to believe that all of them kept their silence, and the people they talked to about the Recreance kept theirs, and so on. In fact it is implied that not all Orders took part in the Recreance;

I am often silly.  It's one of my personality quirks.

 

3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

So now we have a whole Order of Radiants running around, who know about the Recreance and the reasons behind it, but who choose not to speak. Not a single one. For me, at least, this seems like a plot hole front line and center. OB explained nothing and I can't think of an explanation either, which naturally I hope will be supplied by the fourth book. 

Not necessarily hard to believe, if you think about it.  Was Nale already a Skybreaker at that point?  Had he revealed himself to them as a Herald?  If so, he could have dictated what they would do.  We know that he's been hunting proto-surgebinders for a really long time.  From the quote that you pasted, which I was about to reference, we know the Skybreakers did something that cost the other orders a high price.  If Nale didn't want information getting back to the spren about the Recreance, or, in his madness, just didn't want to give up *any* information, he could easily have ordered them not to say anything.

 

6 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Honestly, we don't know if Surgebinding destroyed the planet at all, we just have (second-hand account) of an unreliable narrator telling us it was so

Mmm the Stormfather, you mean?  His memories might be spotty, but I think that part is something he would remember.  Nale seems to also confirm the tale, as does the Eila Stele.  That's 3 independent sources right there.

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3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

True that information could have been lost. How convenient that the single most important piece of information from that time became lost. Maybe you're right, that there was another conspiracy too - a conspiracy to suppress information about the Recreance. That would make sense to me, if someone could stand to gain from it. Skybreakers maybe? 

Actually, in my opinion the most important piece of information from that time was that spren bonding humans created KR, and that Shardblades were spren. We saw all over TWoK and WoR how scholars had been trying for centuries to make Sharblades. And yes, the truth was once commonly known and it was totally lost. The reason for the Recreance is the most important piece now, but for centuries there was another very important bit of knowledge scholars and countries wanted, and they got zip on it. In WoR we see people didn't even fully believe KR had powers, and just had those ideas as myths and stories. Its not even convenient that all knowledge of KR is so muddled/gone, when that is specifically the knowledg the Hierocracy wanted to bury.

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1 hour ago, RShara said:

I am often silly.  It's one of my personality quirks.

I imagine you saying that like Steris would. :D

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Not necessarily hard to believe, if you think about it.  Was Nale already a Skybreaker at that point?  Had he revealed himself to them as a Herald?  If so, he could have dictated what they would do.  We know that he's been hunting proto-surgebinders for a really long time.  From the quote that you pasted, which I was about to reference, we know the Skybreakers did something that cost the other orders a high price.  If Nale didn't want information getting back to the spren about the Recreance, or, in his madness, just didn't want to give up *any* information, he could easily have ordered them not to say anything.

The Skybreakers with a Herald could probably get a lot done. If we take the part about "subterfuge at others' expense" to mean a campaign of suppression by the Skybreakers, maybe suppression of information and of some dissenting Radiants (who aren't of their Order), it'd make sense to me. It could also (at least partly) explain Nale and the Skybreakers' habit of hunting down Radiants: they started that right after the Recreance to suppress information about it and about Radiancy in general. So Radiant-hunting is almost a tradition to them at this point.

 

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Mmm the Stormfather, you mean?  His memories might be spotty, but I think that part is something he would remember.  Nale seems to also confirm the tale, as does the Eila Stele.  That's 3 independent sources right there.

Does Eila Stele confirm it? Now of course this is a work of fiction, but to look at this from the viewpoint of historical research for a moment. Eila is the one I would consider most reliable, considering that she is the oldest source (?) and considered a reliable and respected scholar even currently on Roshar. As far as I know though, none of the three (the Stormfather, Nale and Eila) were present for the planet-destroying, nor that the event even happened in theri lifetimes. Which means they're not contemporary sources, and as such quite inconclusive and not nearly as reliable as one would prefer. So what I mean is not to doubt the Stormfather's memory, but to question the validity of the information he received. A lot of things get muddied up over the years.

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7 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I imagine you saying that like Steris would. :D

The Skybreakers with a Herald could probably get a lot done. If we take the part about "subterfuge at others' expense" to mean a campaign of suppression by the Skybreakers, maybe suppression of information and of some dissenting Radiants (who aren't of their Order), it'd make sense to me. It could also (at least partly) explain Nale and the Skybreakers' habit of hunting down Radiants: they started that right after the Recreance to suppress information about it and about Radiancy in general. So Radiant-hunting is almost a tradition to them at this point.

 

Does Eila Stele confirm it? Now of course this is a work of fiction, but to look at this from the viewpoint of historical research. Eila is the one I would consider most reliable, considering that she is the oldest source (?) though none of the three (the Stormfather, Nale and Eila) were present for the planet-destroying as far as I know, or that it happened during their lifetime. And I don't think any contemporary documents of that nature exist on Roshar, unless the Dawnchants count. Which means all three of them are second-hand sources at best, considering the time scales we're working with here. So what I mean is not to doubt the Stormfather's memory, but to question the validity of the information he received. A lot of things get muddied up over the years.

It's not a work of fiction, as far as we know.

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Jasnah sighed. “Uncle, the piece that historians have been most eager to translate is called the Eila Stele. Other sources claim it is old, perhaps the oldest document in written memory, said to be scribed by the Heralds themselves. From the translation that finally came in today, the carving appears to be the account of someone who witnessed the very first coming of the Voidbringers, long, long ago. Even before the first Desolation.”

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They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging.

—From the Eila Stele

 

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5 minutes ago, RShara said:

They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging.

Is there more to that quote? I don't think it's clear enough. For example, it's not clear whether she is referring to a contemporary event or to an event long in her past.

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That was the entire epigraph.  There's only 4 from the Eila Stele (it's a carving, not a person) in the whole book.  I think it's clear that she's talking about something recent (the betrayal).  Remember that it is in the Dawnchant, as well.

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We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

—From the Eila Stele

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Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god.

—From the Eila Stele

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These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live.

—From the Eila Stele

 

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And on top of that we have it confirmed that people using the surges are what devastated Ashyn. 

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Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

source

No, it was not Nahel bonded surgebinders, but the system was similar. 

The listener songs also say that they aren't responsible for the Shattered Plains. So that can most likely be attributed to surgebinders as well. 

Add in what Melishi did that resulted in the Parshmen being the mindless slaves we knew, and it's really not that unthinkable that the Radiants suddenly thought Honor's raving were truth.

Just because we haven't seen anything that makes the surges seem that strong yet doesn't mean they aren't possible. 

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Okay, time to play Devil's advocate.  I made a big long reply a while back about why I found no theory to be a compelling justification for the Recreance.  I don't know how to do the fancy link-insert thing, but the post should be here.

For those who don't feel like reading the whole post, much of which related to other theories about the Recreance that didn't work, I'll quote here the main part applicable to this topic, which are the three main questions that any reasonable Recreance theory must answer (ellipses indicate information relating to the original post that has been removed for brevity and clarity):

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1) Why did all the KR abandon their oaths?  This is the big one....  In my experience, you can't get ten people to all agree on where to have dinner on a given night.  Getting thousands of people to all kill their bosom companions and, incidentally, give up on their superpowers, not to mention the oaths they've spent a lifetime upholding, just doesn't seem at all plausible.

2) Why did the Recreance happen all at once?  Even if most or somehow all the KR were convinced to abandon their oaths...any believable theory needs to explain why they all did so at the same time.  What time crunch were they under?  This can be explained if the Recreance were some sort of mass suicide-pact in which there was fear that some individuals might not go along with it....

3) Why did the Recreance happen the way it did?  Why didn't the Windrunners and Stonewards hand over their Shards peacefully?  Why not explain their motivations to the people they were abandoning?

The main problem with this theory, as with most theories, is point number one, though it also struggles a bit with points two and three when taken together.  I'm supposed to believe that every single Radiant (except, for some reason, the Skybreakers) decided to kill off their spren?  There weren't a few people who were like, "Yeah, maybe our powers could be used to destroy the planet.  So?  That doesn't mean we should kill our spren." 

And why all the Orders except the Skybreakers?  What about the Edgedancers?  Their surges seem pretty safe, as far as surges go.  How are you going to use them to wreck the planet?  Why did all the Edgedancers feel the need to quit?  (I'm guessing Bondsmiths are pretty safe, too.)

Heck, why did anyone quit, if the Skybreakers didn't?  They've got gravitation, probably the most obviously destructive power (Great big rock goes up, Great big rock comes down), so the logic seems suspect.  "Hey, since our powers might be dangerous, let's all quit.  Except the guys with the most dangerous powers and the tendency to blindly follow the law, they can stay.  There's no way this goes wrong."

There's a few other issues with this theory, but for now I'll settle for explanations for the above.

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17 minutes ago, galendo said:

The main problem with this theory, as with most theories, is point number one, though it also struggles a bit with points two and three when taken together.  I'm supposed to believe that every single Radiant (except, for some reason, the Skybreakers) decided to kill off their spren?  There weren't a few people who were like, "Yeah, maybe our powers could be used to destroy the planet.  So?  That doesn't mean we should kill our spren." 

Who says there was no dissension? Dissension was likely, and probably dealt with harshly by those who believed that the Radiants must end. 

As to the Skybreakers, one, they lied hence the" great subterfuge" and second we know why they didn't abandon their oaths. (edited for length, and emphasis added) 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

source

 

17 minutes ago, galendo said:

Heck, why did anyone quit, if the Skybreakers didn't?  They've got gravitation, probably the most obviously destructive power (Great big rock goes up, Great big rock comes down), so the logic seems suspect.  "Hey, since our powers might be dangerous, let's all quit.  Except the guys with the most dangerous powers and the tendency to blindly follow the law, they can stay.  There's no way this goes wrong."

Your making assumptions as to what the surges are capable of. I doubt any of them are safe. Progression isn't limited to healing. Adhesion isn't just sticking things together. Lightweaving isn't just illusions. I highly doubt we've seen the upper bounds of any of the surges. 

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I'm not actually speculating on the reason for the Recreance, just that the spren had to have agreed with what their bondmates decided.  But some tangential answers...

1. Honor was dying.  He was stating as fact that surgebinders would destroy Roshar as they did Ashyn.  Nale and Ishar believed that without Honor, surgebinders were too dangerous to resist.  So taking advantage of Honor's ravings, they used their influence to convince the Knights that they were a danger to the world.  Spren don't see death the way we do.  Pattern and Syl had no problems with being "dead" for a while.  Pattern is completely nonchalant and expecting Shallan to kill him.  The cultivationspren that helps the team in Shadesmar was willing to lie and cover for them to get away.  As far as we've seen, they are quite self-sacrificing.  So if it's a choice between them dying and the entire world, and all the spren and creatures and people on it dying, it's pretty obvious what they would choose.

The Skybreakers believed Oaths and Laws and Promises took precedence over any independent "right or wrong" mentality.  So their spren would be the least likely to agree, and the Skybreakers themselves would be very unlikely to agree.  They might also have pretended to agree, but instead went their own way.

2.  The Recreance happened all at once because they needed the maximum shock factor in order to horrify the spren enough that they would not want to bond again.  What's more horrifying?  A few dying every few days or weeks or months?  Or thousands all at once?

3.  Since the spren agreed that surgebinders had to end, they had to do something so diametrically opposed to their Oaths that it would break their Oaths anyway.  What better way than to drop their Shards near the front line of a warzone where they knew people would be, knowing that those people would lust for, claim, and wreak havoc, with the bodies of their friends?

 

We've only seen the beginning of the powers that the Radiants have.  And already a few of them have done things that should be impossible. Abrasion...can it increase friction as well as reduce it?  Can it increase, say, the friction of a rockslide so that the rocks, pulled inevitably downward anyway, strike flames and cause a huge fire?  Could they reduce the friction of the air around an ocean wave and cause a tsunami?  Could they grow plants so quickly that their roots and branches crack and break stone and cement?  Could they work in combination with other surgebinders to do even crazier things?

Bondsmiths literally bond with the most powerful spren in the world.  Dalinar can create perpendicularities.  He can supercharge surgebinders so that usually extremely difficult things can be done easily.  A group of Edgedancers or Lightweavers could vaporize an entire city.

I'm almost positive Lightweavers or Dustbringers are responsible for the Shattered Plains.  Given that the Plains seemed to have been shattered shortly before the Recreance, that's a prime example of what surgebinders unchecked could do.  Brandon has said that of the 3, the most dangerous would be Dalinar, followed by Shallan, with Kaladin coming in third.

 

Lots of bad things could be done with Radiant orders or combinations of Radiant orders.

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25 minutes ago, RShara said:

Brandon has said that of the 3, the most dangerous would be Dalinar, followed by Shallan, with Kaladin coming in third.

I'm want to read this WoB, if you can find and post it. I'm curious if his answer was based on surges alone or includes the restrictions imposed by the order's oaths.  

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1 minute ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I'm want to read this WoB, if you can find and post it. I'm curious if his answer was based on surges alone or includes the restrictions imposed by the order's oaths.  

There wasn't any qualification.

 

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Who is the most dangerous of Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Hmm… haw… Depends on which era of their lives… Probably Dalinar is the most dangerous. But that's a really tough question! After Dalinar probably Shallan.

source

 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Who says there was no dissension? Dissension was likely, and probably dealt with harshly by those who believed that the Radiants must end.  

But if there were dissension, then some of the spren must not be ignorant of the reason for the Recreance.  If the Knights were "dealt with harshly" -- by which I assume you mean killed -- then their spren would have been freed and not trapped as Blades.

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As to the Skybreakers, one, they lied hence the" great subterfuge" and second we know why they didn't abandon their oaths. (edited for length, and emphasis added) 

I guess with enough subterfuge this might have been possible.  But if this were some mass suicide-pact, as the theory seems to be proposing, it's weird that the Skybreakers wouldn't have needed to promise to go along with it like everyone else.  If they did promise, then failure to do so would have been breaking that oath, at least.  Heck, given the destructive potential that the Skybreakers represent, I'd be surprised if the others didn't put some pretty clear laws in place as well and have another Order watching to make sure they went along with it.

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Your making assumptions as to what the surges are capable of. I doubt any of them are safe. Progression isn't limited to healing. Adhesion isn't just sticking things together. Lightweaving isn't just illusions. I highly doubt we've seen the upper bounds of any of the surges.

Yes, I suppose I am.  But, well, let's take Progression.  I think it's established that it only affects living things.  So if you're worried about a few rogues to use it to destroy all human life on a planet, you're pretty much limited to disease vectors, plants with deadly pollen, stuff like that.  Now maybe Progression can force evolution in particular ways and maybe not.  I'm leaning towards not, but even if so....

That's pretty much where we are, right now, on Earth.

Have you looked into the crazy stuff that CRISPR can do?  Between gene driving and genetic bombs and probably other sorts of nasty possibilities, it wouldn't surprise me if we could kill ourselves with our medical technology alone.  Heck, maybe it's already happening.  Have you had your DNA sequenced lately?

Of course, a rogue cabal in the wrong place could probably do it with nukes, too.

But you know what people aren't calling for, at least not in large numbers?  A complete ban on medical research or a complete ban on nuclear technology.  Since it isn't happening on Earth, it seems weird to suppose that it would happen on Roshar.  The Recreance would be the (rough) equivalent of all the world's medical researchers deciding to stop their CRISPR research and burn their records.

Now, we've sort of done that in a few areas.  There are still widespread bans on human cloning, for instance, though honestly I'd be pretty surprised to learn it's never happened.  And the world's nuclear powers have made great strides in disarmament (I think we might only have enough bombs left to wipe out humanity a few dozen times), not that they couldn't reverse the trend at any moment.

But a widespread call to abandon CRISPR?  Much less a vast majority of the world's researchers agreeing to it?  I'm just not seeing it happen.

33 minutes ago, RShara said:

Brandon has said that of the 3, the most dangerous would be Dalinar, followed by Shallan, with Kaladin coming in third.

And a madman with a knife is arguably more dangerous than all three combined.

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Again, their God and possibly their Heralds were promising that they would destroy the planet, like they did their previous one.  What do you think people would do if Jesus Christ himself appeared and said CRISPR will destroy the world and all life on it.

This is what the Stormfather says on the matter (only pasted the relevant parts, nothing snipped that would matter to context).  Emphasis mine.

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But I do remember. It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you.

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In the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now?

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

“Odium claimed the same thing.”

He can see the future, though only cloudily. Regardless, I … understand now as I never did before. The ancient Radiants didn’t abandon their oaths out of pettiness. They tried to protect the world. I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. You have cursed me, human, with this capacity.

So.

While Knights aren't necessarily all perfect and moral and good, they would tend to be because of the nature of the Oaths and Truths.  The spren are definitely self-sacrificing.

They learn (again) that they invaded their current world and were fighting with the "rightful" owners.

They lobotomize an entire race.

They destroy the Shattered Plains.

Their god told them that they had wrecked their previous world and WILL destroy this one.  They have empirical proof that they could, in fact, do that.

That means all their friends, family, loved ones, will die.  Both human and spren.

 

So they're all sitting there shocked at the things they've done already, staring at each other in stark dread, going "What can we do?" and getting scared because there's no good choice.  One of those incredibly charged moments where the fate of the world hangs in the balance.

 

Then, maybe, a voice says, "You must give up your Shards and break your Oaths, to save the world.  And you must do it in such a way so that no spren will be willing to bond ever again."  Nalan'Elin, Herald of Justice, steps to the front of the room and meets each of your eyes in turn.  He stands tall, unbending, almost glowing, as he states this Truth.

 

What do you do?

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@RShara: You paint a pretty good picture, I will admit.  I could see that getting most of the Radiants to break their Oaths.  But all of them?  It seems unlikely.

Honor's ravings would, I imagine, be taken with a grain of salt.  He might be their god, but you'd think they'd at least get a second opinion from Cultivation.  She's also represented prominently among their artwork at Urithiru, so they clearly revere her as well.  But who knows, maybe Cultivation was in a bad mood at the time -- her lover had just been killed, after all -- and wasn't answering questions or something.

Breaking your Oaths based on Honor's ravings still wouldn't make much sense.  Whether his words are truly prophetic -- if Surgebinders will destroy Roshar eventually -- or whether they're just an exceedingly credible warning, either way you're probably better off using your powers to evacuate Roshar.  Get everyone to a safer world.  Start mass evacuations through the Oathgates or Perpendicularities into Shadesmar.  Abandoning your powers and waiting for the inevitable destruction seems...questionable.

But maybe you don't want to evacuate, or can't.  Even then, if the spren are totally convinced that this is a serious danger, why don't they just stop bonding people?  They clearly have the ability to decide whether to seek a bond or not.  Rather than keep the reason a secret, I'd think the spren would spread it far and wide.  If 100% of all bonded spren thought there was a real danger here, wouldn't the spren in Shadesmar be even more likely to agree?  It's not like bonding is a priority for those spren.

No need to break any Oaths, if the spren are in agreement with the Knights.  Just stop bonding humans.

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What would be the point in an evacuation of millions of people, assuming they are willing to leave in the first place?  The threat is from the surgebinders, not anything special on Roshar.  If everyone left, the surgebinders would either follow or more would be created from spren bonds.

 

And I already explained why  they had to break their oaths that way.  To shock and anger and horrify the spren enough so they wouldn't seek to bond.  Otherwise, its likely some would still seek to bond, especially once the current generation of Knights died out and Honor finally died. Without their God telling them these things, the tales would become just stories.  I doubt Honor was coherent enough for them to get him to tell every Radiant spren in existence.  And further generations would just have stories.

 

They probably realized it was an all or nothing deal.  If just a few people survived and revealed that the spren died willingly, it would drastically lessen the impact.

 

Its also possible that the spren swore themselves to secrecy, either before or after the plan was hashed out.  Spren can't break oaths, so they wouldn't have been able to tell, even if they wanted to (which I don't think they did).

 

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7 hours ago, RShara said:

There wasn't any qualification.

 

 

It was helpful. The question wasn't 'Which is the most dangerous Radiant?' or 'Which has the most dangerous surges?'  Based on the question, Brandon could be referring to Dalinar as the blackthorn being the most dangerous, which I'd argue is completely true. And since he said time in their life, it would need to include restrictions from the oaths to use surges. So Kaladin couldn't hurt someone unless he was protecting someone. Shallan and Dalinar don't seem to have such strict restrictions. 

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I agree with this theory for the most part.  I do think there is more of a twist related to the recreance to come in the books though.  I find it very hard to believe that Willshapers would just give up their oaths based on what previous humans did (likely based on personal bias).  That being said, this theory seems very plausible.

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6 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

I agree with this theory for the most part.  I do think there is more of a twist related to the recreance to come in the books though.  I find it very hard to believe that Willshapers would just give up their oaths based on what previous humans did (likely based on personal bias).  That being said, this theory seems very plausible.

This isn't directed solely at you, your post just emphasizes something that it seems people aren't getting. 

It's not about what people did in the past. The history of humans on Roshar is an element of it, but it's the least of the reasons. RShara posted what the Stormfather said about all of this earlier in the thread, and it wasn't about the discovery of humanity coming from elsewhere. That had been "discovered" multiple times, and Honor always bolstered their morale and led then through it. 

It was everything else. It was the fact that the seemingly all powerful God who was present and spoke to them for millenia said they would destroy Roshar. It was examples of their power in the world that showed it's destructive potential. It was the near destruction of an entire species of sapient life. 

It was the realization that they weren't what they'd always been told and believed, and that they were a danger to everything they loved and cared for. 

It wasn't about the past at all. It was about the future. 

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I think the point a lot of people are making is that Honor is not reliable at all. Personally, I don't believe, without concrete, external confirmation, a single thing he said in that mad state of his. He might have said Surgebinding destroyed the worlds; but what did he leave out? Surgebinding PLUS Dawnshards? Surgebinding PLUS something else? That's why I just don't feel any weight in this plot point at all. 

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6 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I think the point a lot of people are making is that Honor is not reliable at all. Personally, I don't believe, without concrete, external confirmation, a single thing he said in that mad state of his. He might have said Surgebinding destroyed the worlds; but what did he leave out? Surgebinding PLUS Dawnshards? Surgebinding PLUS something else? That's why I just don't feel any weight in this plot point at all. 

And that's all well and good from the perspective we have. 

From the perspective of a group of people who lived with and interacted with their God? If the thing you worshipped, that you had faith and trust in, told you that your power were going to destroy the world, not could, but would... That's not something you just shrug off. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This isn't directed solely at you, your post just emphasizes something that it seems people aren't getting. 

It's not about what people did in the past. The history of humans on Roshar is an element of it, but it's the least of the reasons. RShara posted what the Stormfather said about all of this earlier in the thread, and it wasn't about the discovery of humanity coming from elsewhere. That had been "discovered" multiple times, and Honor always bolstered their morale and led then through it. 

It was everything else. It was the fact that the seemingly all powerful God who was present and spoke to them for millenia said they would destroy Roshar. It was examples of their power in the world that showed it's destructive potential. It was the near destruction of an entire species of sapient life. 

It was the realization that they weren't what they'd always been told and believed, and that they were a danger to everything they loved and cared for. 

It wasn't about the past at all. It was about the future. 

I think we get it, we just don't find the explanation compelling.

Your god says you'll destroy Roshar?  You'd think they'd get a second opinion from their other god (Cultivation).

Your power has destructive potential?  That's nothing new -- some surges, like gravitation, are obviously dangerous -- but if it suddenly worries you, there are a lot better options than "kill all the spren and hope the others are sufficiently horrified to never bond again," which, when you think about it, is a pretty dumb long-term solution.  Even if it works for all the spren currently alive -- something which seems by no means certain (though it seems to have happened) -- there's still no reason to suspect that their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren will be so similarly horrified that they refuse to bond (which also seems to have happened).  Breaking your Oaths is a short-term solution at best.

[To be fair, not breaking your Oaths is also a short-term solution at best, since eventually Knights with less caution might do something rash.  But if the surges on Roshar are simply too dangerous and will eventually destroy the planet no matter what, the solution would seem to be to use your powers to abandon Roshar, not to surrender your powers and wait for the inevitable rise of a new and completely ignorant generation of Knights.]

The near-destruction of an entire species of sapient life?  If the in-world Words of Radiance is correct, they were considering exterminating the Parshendi.  Trapping them in dullform doesn't seem all that horrifying by comparison.  Plus, even if they were horrified by what they'd done, it seems like using your powers to find a way to reverse it would make much more sense than surrendering them and being stuck with the results.  Worse-case scenario, it seems like you could try releasing your captive Unmade, if that was what caused the mindlessness in the first place.

Realizing they were a danger to all they loved?  Seems overstated, at the very least.  I doubt any individual Knight felt personally dangerous to everyone he loved.  You could give me the powers of a god, and I guarantee you I would not be a threat to those I love -- I'm guessing most other people feel the same way.  So why would all the Knights decide they needed to break their Oaths?  It just doesn't add up.  I'd think a fair number would have made themselves conspicuously absent when the time for the Recreance rolled around.

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7 minutes ago, galendo said:

I think we get it, we just don't find the explanation compelling.

That's fine, everyone feels differently, that's what makes things fun :)

But I'm not trying to argue whether the Recreance was compelling or not, just that the spren were in on it.

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