[OB]The spren were in on it

[insert_anagram_here]

22 minutes ago, Yata said:

EDIT: It Rattle could be from Taln's PoV watching the modern opinions on Radiants

Oh yes, that's cool and a lot more interesting! I initially thought that 'Shard of my soul' meant a spren, so I assumed it was a Radiant.

So  'Shard of my soul' is Honor's Investiture? 

[RShara]

Or Jezrien.  Or Tanavast.  Or his sanity It is so vague I really have no good ideas.

[insert_anagram_here]

Just now, RShara said:

Or his sanity

Come on, don't link this to the other thread just because it irks you.

[RShara]

Uhhhh what are you talking about...?

 

To clarify, if we're thinking that it is Taln speaking, maybe he is referring to the parts of his mind that he's lost, in the 4500 years that he's been tortured.  

 

I am not referencing anything but what is being discussed in this thread only.

 

I it because Taln is very insane most of the time, so him referring to his sanity in that would be "on the nose" enough to be funny.

Edited February 15, 2018 by RShara

[Vissy]

As Yata said, I think the biggest challenge to this theory is that none of the surviving spren seem to understand the reason for the Recreance. 

Eh, I think that the Recreance is just a plot hole, plain and simple. I wouldn't be surprised if we never heard about it again. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Vissy

[Leyrann]

13 minutes ago, Vissy said:

As Yata said, I think the biggest challenge to this theory is that none of the surviving spren seem to understand the reason for the Recreance. 

Eh, I think that the Recreance is just a plot hole, plain and simple. I wouldn't be surprised if we never heard about it again. 

Brandon doesn't do plot holes, most certainly not of that size.

Think of (mistborn era 1 spoilers)

Spoiler

the good guy Alendi becoming the horrific Lord Ruler. What a plothole!

Oh wait, turns out it wasn't him at all.

 

[Vissy]

31 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Brandon doesn't do plot holes, most certainly not of that size.

Think of (mistborn era 1 spoilers)

  Hide contents

the good guy Alendi becoming the horrific Lord Ruler. What a plothole!

Oh wait, turns out it wasn't him at all.

 

Mistborn is Mistborn, this is a different series altogether - and I'd say the Alendi / TLR twist was foreshadowed a ton. The Recreance is just a sort of a lame horse, it completely fell flat for me. So I'm going to keep calling it a plot hole unless Sanderson stumps me with some plot twist. I certainly wouldn't see it coming, and I might even think it's too little, too late even if it does roll around. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Vissy

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Mistborn is Mistborn, this is a different series altogether - and I'd say the Alendi / TLR twist was foreshadowed a ton. The Recreance is just a sort of a lame horse, it completely fell flat for me. So I'm going to keep calling it a plot hole unless Sanderson stumps me with some plot twist. I certainly wouldn't see it coming, and I might even think it's too little, too late even if it does roll around. 

Mistborn is written by the same writer, which makes it a very good comparision. Brandon Sanderson has proven time and time and time again that he's a great writer and world builder with an exceptional ability to figure out what is logical even where most writers wouldn't realize it. I do not believe for a single second he would drop the ball with an event as major as this.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Leyrann

[Vissy]

Yes, I see your point and I raise you a counter. He already dropped the ball with Adolin. I don't think it's healthy to idolize an author as a somehow perfect writer - Sanderson is just as capable of making mistakes as anybody else, and I wouldn't expect him to muddle through a series as extensive and titanic as the Stormlight Archives without screwing up a thing or two.

[Leyrann]

22 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Yes, I see your point and I raise you a counter. He already dropped the ball with Adolin. I don't think it's healthy to idolize an author as a somehow perfect writer - Sanderson is just as capable of making mistakes as anybody else, and I wouldn't expect him to muddle through a series as extensive and titanic as the Stormlight Archives without screwing up a thing or two.

Do you mean in regards to the Sadeas murder?

I feel like that primarily just got lost in everything else in Oathbringer and us only having a handful of viewpoints from Adolin as he's basically always around the three main characters of Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin. I agree that there should have been a bit more there, though.

But with that being said, there is a very important difference between the Recreance and the murder of Sadeas, and that is simply that the Recreance is an extremely important event of which the consequences will show for most of this series, if not all of it, while the murder of Sadeas is clearly more of an Adolin-specific plotline, or maybe (in book 4) a Dalinar-Adolin relationship plotline. Brandon has, without a doubt, spend much, much more time on the Recreance than on how exactly Adolin dealt with murdering a man he hated.

[Wandering Investor]

I have to agree with Leyrann on this. Although some may feel the Sadeas plot-line was disappointing, there's nothing logically wrong with it. Adolin did not leave any traces and no one knew where either of them were. The only way Adolin would be caught is if he fessed up, which he ended up doing as a growth point. The Recreance on the other hand..

 

The Recreance seems to have occurred for two simultaneous reasons. The first being the discovery that humans were the original invaders (the details of which are still kinda sketchy...) and a dying, raving Honor proclaiming that the KR would destroy the world. Both of these, if believed, would have a huge impact on the KR and would cause some, maybe a lot, to abandon the orders. But all of them? None of the scholars went, woah, we're the first invaders? Details please? None of the knights asked how exactly are we going to destroy the world? I could understand a huge percentage of the KR leaving for the second reason at least, but I feel like some of the KR we've seen so far (assuming the characters we've seen are good examples of the general KR personalities) would push on no matter what.

Plus killing the spren on top of everything? Even if you're abandoning the orders and no longer using your powers, why kill the spren? It just seems that something is missing from the equation.

[RShara]

6 hours ago, Vissy said:

As Yata said, I think the biggest challenge to this theory is that none of the surviving spren seem to understand the reason for the Recreance. 

Eh, I think that the Recreance is just a plot hole, plain and simple. I wouldn't be surprised if we never heard about it again. 

But that's not as challenge to the theory.  It's actually one of my supporting points.

[Calderis]

The murder if Sadeas was dealt with. Saying that the plot line was dropped just means that you expected things to go differently. You wanted more criminal repercussions? Political? Social? All of those things require Adolin to have been found out, and an investigation is storming hard in the middle of what is essentially a giant refugee camp. Placing Adolin in charge of the invistigation was another block to anything being done about it. 

The Recreance has far more about it to be revealed. I've said in other threads that the information that we've seen was only one piece of a major chain reaction that convinced the Radiants to turn away. The Radiants learned  hat Ashyn was dethroned and humans came from elsewhere, Honor is raving about how they will destroy thus world, the Shattered Plains are used as evidence of the destructive potential of their powers, and finally the Parsh are lobitomized as a people. There's plenty of evidence there to say... Nope, were not the good guys. And I'm sure there's more to come. 

Just because we don't like the direction a part of the story took does not make it a plot hole. 

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

But that's not as challenge to the theory.  It's actually one of my supporting points.

And RShara posted this as I was writing, but it bears repeating. The lack of knowledge of the current spren is one the *strongest* pieces of evidence that the Spren were complicit. If they weren't, why wouldn't the Spren who weren't bonded have been told? 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Calderis

[WhiteLeeopard]

I think that there is more to the Recreance. Additionally, the Recreance fell flat for many here because we had already guessed humans were the invaders and parsh the original people of Roshar, so it wasn't as much a reveal as a confirmation. 

On the Adolin arc, I don't get why people keep saying it was messed up. I found it quite logical and fell within my expectations. Simply put, politics, conspiracies and social issues are for peace times when you got nothing more serious to worry about, so what spoon you eat with is a huge social topic. In times of war, people's priorities straighten out remarkably fast. As a real life example, before WWII britain was doing sincerely dumb things, when the war started they removed the politicians and put the country on the hands of a militant without a second thought.

On standard Roshar Sadeas was a great topic, and a man with a lot of influence. He got murdered while the Desolation started? He got the attention worthy of the topic, he was forgotten. The real consequences were Amaram was promoted, and Sadeas soldiers lost what little discipline they had so were easily taken over by Odium in Thaylen.

[thegatorgirl00]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And RShara posted this as I was writing, but it bears repeating. The lack of knowledge of the current spren is one the *strongest* pieces of evidence that the Spren were complicit. If they weren't, why wouldn't the Spren who weren't bonded have been told? 

Maybe the bonded spren were with their Radiants and far away from the cities where the unbounded ones were when they made the decision. Maybe the spren didn't think they would really be gone because they don't have the same sense of death as humans. Maybe there was mass chaos and knowledge loss when the majority of people in spren civilization died. 

I looked up the scene you referee to with Spark. We're hearing her words secondhand from Malata. We don't know that she actually used the word friends. 

I personally agree that the spren agreed the Recreance was necessary. I just don't think there needed to be some spren conspiracy where they agree not to tell anyone. I didn't get the impression there were lots of unbonded spren at the time anyways. Isn't that what makes Syl so special to the honorspren? 

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

And RShara posted this as I was writing, but it bears repeating. The lack of knowledge of the current spren is one the *strongest* pieces of evidence that the Spren were complicit. If they weren't, why wouldn't the Spren who weren't bonded have been told? 

Because it was a stupidly unpopular decision and a spur of the moment deal? And keep in mind we don't know what Shadesmar was like back then. Maybe there wasn't much of a spren civilization to spread the news to. For a strong supporting piece of information there are a lot of ifs and maybes here.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Vissy

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Because it was a stupidly unpopular decision and a spur of the moment deal? And keep in mind we don't know what Shadesmar was like back then. Maybe there wasn't much of a spren civilization to spread the news to. For a strong supporting piece of information there are a lot of ifs and maybes here.

There's a remarkable level of coordination involved for a spur of moment decision 

[Vissy]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There's a remarkable level of coordination involved for a spur of moment decision 

Well, ultimately we don't know. There's also a remarkable lack of information about the Recreance among the spren, if you assume that they were all in on it. The spren in fact consider humans to be traitors, which directly contradicts this theory! 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Vissy

[RShara]

Even if there wasn't much of a civilization, there were still familial and friendship ties.  For example, we interact directly with the son of one of the deadeyes, and he doesn't have any specifics on why the Recreance happens.  He just says, "Humans can't keep oaths."

Timbre is actually angry at humans because her grandfather was killed in the Recreance.  So we have a son and a grand daughter of Recreance spren who are definitely unhappy with humans and who don't seem to know the actual reason.

And as Cal said, there was a lot of organization.  Thousands of people meeting at specific points across the continent all giving up their Shards at the same time.  You don't set that up in a day.

[Calderis]

@Vissy what were saying, that your last post seems to show you've missed, is that the Spren that were bonded and became blades intentionally kept the unbonded spren out of the loop to have the very effect we've seen in book.

If the Spren weren't complicit and knew what was coming (which they had to, the level of coordination and the sheer number of spren and Radiants makes the idea of keeping it secret from their bond mates ridiculous) then the knowledge should have filtered out and the current spren should know more. As it is, the Spren have been made to fear bonding because they expect to die. 

If the event were sudden, then it shouldn't have had the obvious coordination that the Feverstone Keep vision shows.

This is the point were trying to make. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Calderis

[Vissy]

I'll leave aside the other challenges to the conspiracy angel for the last.

Where does assuming it was all a conspiracy leave us? What I'm saying is that I'm completely indifferent to this plot point as a direct result of how it was handled in OB. I can't see a way to make this make any sense. Okay, it was a conspiracy, so why did they conspire? Because Surgebinding destroys planets, or just because Honor was raving mad? Either way I haven't seen any indications that Surgebinding could destroy a planet, and Honor's ravings being the reason for a widespread conspiracy just seems lame as hell. It implies a panic decision that has seen some build-up. Here is one point that you might appreciate: spur of the moment decisions usually don't come out of the blue, especially at this scale. When you receive horrible news, sometimes you have to organize and act very quickly, and that may be one explanation for the Recreance. A decision like the Recreance might have been discussed before among the Radiants, but never made... until the day it suddenly was.

Right, so as to the other challenges. I don't think this being a conspiracy among the bonded spren automatically means word wouldn't get out. I think to the contrary, there would totally be dissenters who either disagree completely or don't want their friends to be surprised. This is one of the original mysteries of the Recreance - for an event so seemingly catastrophic, there sure isn't any information to speak of! I mean, anyone with a bit of common sense can tell you that no plan is perfect, there's always some information leakage. In short I just don't find the kind of conspiracy you're portraying here plausible at all. It breaks my immersion completely, and I would still consider it a plot hole.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Vissy

[Calderis]

It doesn't work if you assume spren would act as humans do. 

I don't. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

Its possible spren did not purposefully hide what they were planning, but rather that all (or most) of the unbonded spren were still children and too young to understand. If that were the case they wouldn't know why humans broke their Oaths and they wouldn't care, all they would see was all their parents were dead because of humans.

At the same time, I personally find the spren to be remarkably nice to KR and open to the idea of bonding humans again. Honorspren didn't come only because the Stormfather forbade it, but as soon as Syl bonded Kaladin many of them started bonding his squires or flitting around considering the bond at least. Captain Ico was not thrilled with the party in Shadesmar at first, but by the end of the trip he had mellowed a lot and was rather friendly with them. The spren they meet at customs that distracts the Voidspren while they run was almost crying in happiness that humans were bonding spren again. Even Notum started off angry and treating them like prisioners but was quite happy with Kaladin and company and willing to fight Voidspren for them while they ran at the end.

Edited February 16, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard

[Vissy]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It doesn't work if you assume spren would act as humans do. 

I don't. 

I see your point, but that still leaves you the other half of the Nahel bond - the humans - to account for. Why didn't any of them talk?

Edited February 16, 2018 by Vissy

[RShara]

9 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I'll leave aside the other challenges to the conspiracy angel for the last.

Where does assuming it was all a conspiracy leave us? What I'm saying is that I'm completely indifferent to this plot point as a direct result of how it was handled in OB. I can't see a way to make this make any sense. Okay, it was a conspiracy, so why did they conspire? Because Surgebinding destroys planets, or just because Honor was raving mad? Either way I haven't seen any indications that Surgebinding could destroy a planet, and Honor's ravings being the reason for a widespread conspiracy just seems lame as hell. It implies a panic decision that has seen some build-up. 

Right, so as to the other challenges. I don't think this being a conspiracy among the bonded spren automatically means word wouldn't get out. I think to the contrary, there would totally be dissenters who either disagree completely or don't want their friends to be surprised. This is one of the original mysteries of the Recreance - for an event so seemingly catastrophic, there sure isn't any information to speak of! I mean, anyone with a bit of common sense can tell you that no plan is perfect, there's always some information leakage. In short I just don't find the kind of conspiracy you're portraying here plausible at all. It breaks my immersion completely, and I would still consider it a plot hole.

We know that human surgebinders wrecked at least one planet already. 

If Roshar gets destroyed, not only do the humans all die, but the spren too.  To save the lives of all the humans and all the other spren, they agreed on acting out the Recreance, and staying silent about it.  That way, spren wouldn't be willing to bond with humans again for a long time.  Basically until something forced them to again, such as a new Desolation.

And it clearly worked.

 

(Incidentally, I covered this in the original post...)

 

Quote

I see your point, but that still leaves you the other half of the Nahel bond - the humans - to account for. Why didn't any of them talk?

...what would they say?  "Hey I know you guys rely on our powers but heh...turns out....we might destroy the planet and all life on it.  So....we're just going to leave you with our super sharp, indestructible, cuts-through-anything Blades, who are really the dead bodies of our soulmates, for you to wreak havoc with, to ensure our Oaths are quite thoroughly broken.  Have fun!"

 

"Oh, and don't tell any of the spren, otherwise they might keep trying to bond with us, and that's a really bad idea. Toodles!"

Edited February 16, 2018 by RShara