[OB]The spren were in on it

[CrazyRioter]

My keyboard hates me.

[RShara]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Did Kaladin, when he began breaking his oaths? IIRC Kaladin didn't have any problems with his powers until the bond was almost completely lost, which was also when Syl didn't reappear. Then he lost them abruptly. Syl showed signs of a deteriorating bond, true, but his powers worked just fine.

The 4v1 duel where he helped Adolin was shortly before that and there he used his powers.

Yeah he started losing his powers when he attacked Adolin during the sparring match.

He was in full protect-them mode during the duel, so it makes sense he wouldn't have problems with his powers during that fight, but they completely petered out not long after.  I think when he decided to help Moash is when they really went away.

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Did Kaladin, when he began breaking his oaths? IIRC Kaladin didn't have any problems with his powers until the bond was almost completely lost, which was also when Syl didn't reappear. Then he lost them abruptly. Syl showed signs of a deteriorating bond, true, but his powers worked just fine.

The 4v1 duel where he helped Adolin was shortly before that and there he used his powers.

Thats because Kaladin's bond was intact for the 4v1 duel. He made the promise to help Moash kill Elhokar just after the duel. His powers immediately started malfunctioning from there on and Syl regressed to mid TWoK state.

[Mage of Lirigon]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't believe, that the ability is the problem. Technically spren should also be able to walk away from a bond, yes. But I think, since the Radiantspren, that we know of, are made of the essences of Honor and Cultivation and thus also carry a part of their Intents with them. Honor intends to uphold oaths. Thus I think, that spren are Intent-blocked from stepping back from the agreement that binds them to their Radiant. Humans don't have such a limitation, which is what I think, that the Stormfather means with "cannot" and "can".

So, yeah. It seems, that spren have free will, since Syl and Ivory both "ran away" to find Kaladin and Jasnah, but as soon as they start to have a binding agreement with a human (or otherwise I suppose), they can't just break that agreement. They are bound to it by Intent, which they have as they are partially made of Honor.

Does this mean that the closer a spren is Cultivation the easier it would be to break the bond? That it would near impossible for a honorspren but relatively easier for a cultivationspren, depending on the Intent of how to bond was broken?

 

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

And, interestingly enough, Ishar was, apparently, never worried about "greater power of the Oaths" destroying Roshar - he feared, instead, that there was a small, but non-negligible possibility that they might, somehow, destroy the already weakened Oathpact and the mysterious "certain measures we(?) took" - we being Ishar and Nale, perhaps, though other Heralds may have certainly also been involved. And I do think that it is very significant that Ishar's concerns were so different than those of the Radiants who commited the Recreance. And also that Honor, in his visions to Dalinar, was  also urging the re-founding of the Radiants, while completely neglecting the alleged risk of them destroying another planet. Something doesn't quite fit - there is obviously "another secret" behind all this.

To be fair, Odium seems like he's going to destroy Roshar after Splintering Cultivation. I can understand how that may be a more pressing concern to Ishar and Honor, who's more aware of what Odium can do compared to later Radiants.

There's also a chance the Radiants who performed to Recreance got fed bad intel as well.

 

Quote

 Maybe because Nale never let anybody but himself reach the Fifth Ideal? Because he had an agreement with highspren that they wouldn't guide their bonded partners to it, perhaps? 

Is it that Nale didn't allow anyone to reach the Fifth Ideal, or just that no one ever did?

[Solant]

I like this theory. If anything, I think it provides a more plausible explanation as to how you could convince every Radiant to simultaneously and deliberately abandon their scared oaths and life missions and destroy the objects of one of their most intimate relationships. Actually, the more I think about it in those terms, I don't know how this would not be the case. I feel like otherwise, a certain percentage of Radiants would morally be unable to comply.

[CrazyRioter]

Re: the Skybreaker's Fifth Ideal, it's stated that nobody has reached that point in centuries, implying that it did happen in the past.

[insert_anagram_here]

It's a good theory.

What I don't understand though is why Stormfather is so negative against humans. You are saying he was one of the spren that didn't know?

[Leuthie]

He wasn't bonded at the time, so he had all the memory, reasoning and intellect of a storm with a lot of Investiture.  So, yeah, he's not aware of what was really behind the Recreance.

[Calderis]

Kaladin's powers were definitely failing before Syl "died," there were multiple times he attempted to draw in Stormlight and failed, on the trip to the plains before she actually "died" he accused her of withholding his powers, and came to the realization that she'd regressed because of his conflicting promises. 

As to the Dalinar "Shardblade" and Oathgate situation... Considering everything else Dalinar did in the book, I think taking anything Dalinar did in the book that we were told he shouldn't have been able to is suspect, and should not be taken as normal. 

I don't think that Nale is actively able to prevent any Skybreaker from achieving the fifth oath, and I don't think that the Highspren would agree to withhold guidance to them. The issue is that the fifth oath of the Skybreakers as presented to Szeth is about internalizing the law and applying your own judgment to I, and while Nale has apparently done this, his attitude had corrupted the Skybreakers, in that he states plainly that all humans are dailies in their judgement and only an external guide can be trusted. He's painted the law in absolutes, and even those Skybreakers who haven't sworn to him have been corrupted by this view.

On the events of the Recreance itself, I don't see how it would be possible for the Spren, young or not at the time, to have forgotten the reason if it were shared. They are timeless. And as Malata said about Spark, he lost friends... Not parents, not teachers, but friends.

I see no way for all knowledge to be gone unless the Spren, even those not progressed enough in their bond to turn to a blade on the breaking of the Oaths, to withhold that information intentionally. It was a coordinated effort. We've seen now that even unbonded spren would have come near the Radiants to judge if there were ones they should bond. The Spren who were bonded should have been able to share information with then if they had wanted. 

[Leyrann]

18 hours ago, SLNC said:

Did Kaladin, when he began breaking his oaths? IIRC Kaladin didn't have any problems with his powers until the bond was almost completely lost, which was also when Syl didn't reappear. Then he lost them abruptly. Syl showed signs of a deteriorating bond, true, but his powers worked just fine.

The 4v1 duel where he helped Adolin was shortly before that and there he used his powers.

I'm rereading WoR at the moment, just two days ago I came across the first scene where he loses his powers, which is his first time on the sparring grounds, where he's sparring with Zahel to learn to fight against Shardblade and then attacks Adolin. He basically lost them whenever he had the wrong goals in mind. 

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I'm rereading WoR at the moment, just two days ago I came across the first scene where he loses his powers, which is his first time on the sparring grounds, where he's sparring with Zahel to learn to fight against Shardblade and then attacks Adolin. He basically lost them whenever he had the wrong goals in mind. 

Exactly. Which is why I think if the spren didn't agree that the course of action were correct, the Windrunners wouldn't have been able to fly to Feverstone Keep. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Calderis

[Guest]

Right, I forgot about that sparring match. I agree, that there was loss of Stormlight efficiency, he still healed, but not completely and under much higher Stormlight use than before, which is why he lost all his strength then, and when Kaladin asked Syl on why that happened, she said, that she wasn't sure why, but observed, that he wasn't protecting anyone there. Hence, he was acting in non-accordance to his oaths. He was attacking for the sake of attacking and not for the sake of protecting.

I don't think, that the loss of powers can be attributed to the spren agreeing or disagreeing with the Radiant's choices, but rather whether or not he acts in accordance to his oaths.

Here comes another thing, in the quotes provided Dalinar only sees Windrunners and Skybreakers (I am thinking these because of the amber glow and they share the Gravitation surge with the Windrunners). We know, that the Skybreakers decided not to lay down their duties. So there is no surprise, that they still had their full powers. The Windrunners did, too, I think, because they still acted in accordance of their oaths. They believed they were protecting mankind and Roshar from destruction by doing what they did. It was an act of protection and that is all that matters. The question is: "Is breaking your oath of protecting others to protect them really breaking the oath or fulfilling it?" Other orders might have had problems with their ability to Invest, but we can't tell.

Another thing about the Words. For one thing, of course, they strengthen the bond, which determines the Radiants efficiency with Stormlight, but they also serve as thresholds for new abilities to be acquired. Summoning your spren as a Blade doesn't consume any Stormlight, we don't know for Plate yet. Hence, why I think, that even if the other Orders lost their powers to Invest efficiently, because the bonds weakened, they would still be able to summon their Blade to abandon at the Day of Recreance. The loss of powers wouldn't stop them from doing what they did.

Once they reached the threshold of unlocking the power to summon their spren as a Blade, they can do so regardless of loss of Stormlight efficiency through a weakened bond. I think, once a power is unlocked, they can always do that, but the strength of the bond detemines how good they can actually. direct the Investiture towards actually manifesting these powers. Since, summoning the spren as a Blade doesn't need any direction of Investiture from the Radiant, they can do so until their bond is completely severed.

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by SLNC

[Calderis]

Prior to Syl's death, on the Shattered Plains, Kaladin is unable to even draw in Stormlight multiple times. It's not just efficiency, the ability itself fled. The abilities can sputter and fade, and if what they were doing was against the Oaths, then I believe the powers would falter as well.  

If what they were doing wasn't against the Oaths, then why would the Spren disagree with the course of action? Whether an oath is being fulfilled or broken is up to both the Radiant and their spren.

Quote

(cut for length) 

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1640

If the Spren think that an oath is broken it would be. And if those oaths are strained, the bond will suffer, just as we saw with Kaladin's conflicting promises. 

[insert_anagram_here]

I'm still not sure I completely understood the theory (sorry I'm kinda dense sometimes) but I think the problem of this theory isn't whether and how Kaladin's oath deteriorates in comparison to the Recreance but how unlikely the scenario of all the Knight Radiants and all the radiant spren agreed for the spren to commit suicide, simultaneously and not tell anyone about it. It kinda has way too many assumptions don't you think?

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

^ This is actually an argument against the theory, isn't it?

[RShara]

29 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm still not sure I completely understood the theory (sorry I'm kinda dense sometimes) but I think the problem of this theory isn't whether and how Kaladin's oath deteriorates in comparison to the Recreance but how unlikely the scenario of all the Knight Radiants and all the radiant spren agreed for the spren to commit suicide, simultaneously and not tell anyone about it. It kinda has way too many assumptions don't you think?

^ This is actually an argument against the theory, isn't it?

No.  Because if the spren didn't all agree, then some of the Windrunners would have lost their powers.  We see them all flying, holding stormlight, powering their Shardplate, etc etc.  So all of their spren had to be in agreement.

 

And, if some of them didn't agree, they would have either told their friends, if only to say goodbye.  Or tried those "other methods" Notum mentions to try and break their Bond.

Edited February 14, 2018 by RShara

[Leyrann]

Basically, all spren had to be in on it, because if some had not been, then word would have gotten out.

And if no spren were in on it... Well this theory argues why that is not likely, and I also just don't see it happen that hundreds or even thousands of Radiants decide this together without a single spren finding out about it, let alone a Radiant disagreeing with the plan (which I don't doubt happened) and telling his spren.

[RShara]

Just now, Leyrann said:

Basically, all spren had to be in on it, because if some had not been, then word would have gotten out.

And if no spren were in on it... Well this theory argues why that is not likely, and I also just don't see it happen that hundreds or even thousands of Radiants decide this together without a single spren finding out about it, let alone a Radiant disagreeing with the plan (which I don't doubt happened) and telling his spren.

We actually agree on something!  Yay!  And also, that just makes it more likely that I'm right! ;D

[Leyrann]

23 minutes ago, RShara said:

We actually agree on something!  Yay!  And also, that just makes it more likely that I'm right! ;D

 Don't act so surprised.

Also, disagreeing is a good thing, as it's the best way to test theories and ideas.

[RShara]

21 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

 Don't act so surprised.

Also, disagreeing is a good thing, as it's the best way to test theories and ideas.

I'm just playing with you.  Any time I'm not actively debating, I'm probably joking.

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

I'm just playing with you.  Any time I'm not actively debating, I'm probably joking.

I know, hence the smiley.

Also, the same holds true for me for the most part.

[Yata]

I mostly agree with the OP.

Only I can't believe ALL the Honorspren (for example) agreed with that....I think some of them was aganist and probably the simple Recreance's idea and planning were enough to cause the Oathbreak for them....Of course in the vision we saw only the Radiant with Spren that agree with the Recreance, the one aganist already broke.

For extension, there are probably Windrunner&Stonewarden's Shards somewhere other the one left at Feverkeep.

[insert_anagram_here]

So based on this theory, what's the interpretation of this death rattle?

Quote

“Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone? ”

— Collected on Kakan 1171, 5 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a lighteyed woman in her third decade.^[9]

 

[RShara]

7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So based on this theory, what's the interpretation of this death rattle?

"Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone? "

— Collected on Kakan 1171, 5 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a lighteyed woman in her third decade.^[9]

Ummmm I don't know that the two have any bearing on each other?  I guess I need to know how you interpret the Death Rattle and what bearing it has on the Recreance in order to answer that question?

There were definitely 10 orders.  They were loved by everyone, once.  The Almighty died (forsaking them?).  I don't even have a guess as to the last part.  But none of that has anything to do with my theory or the Recreance.

 

@Yata

From the vision, it was stated that it was the entire order of Windrunners and Stonewards.  Also, as covered in #6, none of the surviving spren understand the reason for the Recreance.  If some disagreed, they should have sought ways to break their bond or said goodbye to their friends.  And they didn't.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by RShara

[Yata]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

From the vision, it was stated that it was the entire order of Windrunners and Stonewards.  Also, as covered in #6, none of the surviving spren understand the reason for the Recreance.  If some disagreed, they should have sought ways to break their bond or said goodbye to their friends.  And they didn't.

I meant that the ones in disagreement probably die on the spot by Oathbreaking.

And I don't remember it was a man or Honor to state there were the full Orders ? Because if the Windrunners were 1000 and only 900 were present there...I find hard to believe an observer would be able to catch the difference

EDIT: The Rattle could be from Taln's PoV watching the modern opinions on Radiants

Edited February 15, 2018 by Yata

[RShara]

That's possible, but I mean...the decision wouldn't have been made right away.  There were probably days or weeks of discussion before a decision was made.  Up to that point, the spren who disagreed might be fading, but it wouldn't be insta-death, giving them ample time to seek out options amd spren.