Getting a Spren off World

[MountainKing]

Could we use a heramulgical spike or a shardbalde to severe a spren's connection to it's investiture that is invested on Roshar allowing it to leave Roshare?

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

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Edited February 8, 2018 by MountainKing
Adding a quote

[RShara]

...I think that would kill the spren.  In order for a Shardblade to cut something, it has to be...visible and solid enough to cut, so a Shardblade is definitely out.

You could steal the spren's investiture with hemalurgy, but I don't know if you can spike *in* a different connection.  I'm not sure if spren would even have bind points.  Might be easier to give a spren a medallion (I wonder if those would work)

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Mr. Suit

Can spren - like Syl - be pierced by hemalurgic spike? Will it give some effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. A spren can be pierced by Invested metal…

Oversleep

Could it be spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

Oversleep

Could you steal from a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could steal the Investiture of a spren. Any Investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.

Oversleep

Because I thought you said Hemalurgy needs moving blood.

Brandon Sanderson

It needs, uh, yeah… there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.

Questioner

Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, no, no, not Roshar.

Questioner

The Cognitive Realm on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently than they do.

Oversleep

So you could spike in the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any Investiture into Hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for Hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.

Oversleep

We do not concern ourselves with common uses.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I know you don’t. But yeah Hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you… you’ll see when we get around to it.

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[Calderis]

You can't sever the Sprens connection to the investiture. It is literally sapient investiture. A Splinter. 

The investiture is what it is made of. 

[MountainKing]

Can we sever enough investiture that the spren can leave Roshar, but enough that it doesn't kills a spren, or just trap it's invested investiture in a heramulgical spike, then take it off world, and give the investiture back to it.

[RShara]

6 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Can we sever enough investiture that the spren can leave Roshar, but enough that it doesn't kills a spren, or just trap it's invested investiture in a heramulgical spike, then take it off world, and give the investiture back to it.

Trapping its investiture in a spike is possible, as I pasted in the WoB above.  It would also kill the spren.

[MountainKing]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Trapping its investiture in a spike is possible, as I pasted in the WoB above.  It would also kill the spren.

Did Sanderson tell us it will kill the spren?

[Weltall]

13 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Can we sever enough investiture that the spren can leave Roshar, but enough that it doesn't kills a spren, or just trap it's invested investiture in a heramulgical spike, then take it off world, and give the investiture back to it.

Spren are quanta of Investiture that have developed sentience, so spiking them would probably fundamentally change the spren, assuming you could spike one without killing them. We're told that spiking a human without killing them is technically possible but it would be 'worse than being a Drab' so keep that in mind when thinking of what would happen to a spren after ripping a chunk of their essence away. Anyhow, there's no need to posit a hemalurgical solution to the problem because we know that it's something that can be overcome with knowledge. Vasher does it despite his Connection to Nalthis for example.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Weltall

[RShara]

It's almost impossible to spike anything to steal its investiture without killing it.  Spren, since they are pure investiture, I don't think it's possible at all.

I think you're too focused on using hemalurgy to get around problems that could have other, easier/less-apt-to-kill-someone methods

I think putting the spren into a gemstone would work.  Or providing it with stormlight to sustain itself away from the primary source of its investiture.

[MountainKing]

Thanks

[Isilel]

But speaking of shades, didn't "The Secret History" state that they _can_ occasionally escape into interstellar Cognitive? Weren't the IRE folks on  guard against them? So, apparently it is not that hard for them to leave Threnody, despite their mindlessness.

Hm, good point @RShara, I have forgotten that it is implied during the journey through Shadesmar that spren apparently need stormlight/investiture to sustain them. Lift's suitability rating as a future worldhopper goes up yet another notch . But I really want Jasnah to get that chance too! And yes, gemstone idea is the most likely, IMHO.

P.S. I really hope that Sanderson re-thinks how spiking somebody without killing them should affect them, as I don't see how a highly technological civilization with space-flight, which is based on Metallic Arts could exist in future novels otherwise. They already have too few Mistings and Ferrings in the Era 2. Even though Snapping threshold has been massively lowered by Harmony - who didn't bother to re-inject Metallic Arts back into Scadrial population's genes, for some reason(?). And it would be nice if worldhoppers had an option, however expensive, to obtain Allomancy/Feruchemy without murder or causing a massive amount of harm to the donor. Worse than  drab seems to be too extreme. IMHO, YMMV.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Isilel

[Weltall]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

P.S. I really hope that Sanderson re-thinks how spiking somebody without killing them should affect them, as I don't see how a highly technological civilization with space-flight, which is based on Metallic Arts could exist in future novels otherwise.

What precisely about the severity of it do you think needs rethinking? Hemalurgy is literally ripping away a part of your soul so that someone else can profit by it, originally created by the anthromorphic personification of entropy. If you think about what a Drab is, the idea that a hemalurgy survivor would be worse than one of them makes sense. Nalthians are mostly normal humans (mostly, Brandon has mentioned that we would not be considered Drabs) who have a higher than average amount of Investiture due to their natural Breath. This Breath is literally designed to be something you can give away, but at the cost of losing its advantages that you've taken for granted up until then; life sense, better appreciation for colors and boosted immune system. There are serious downsides to giving away that Breath but you're still a mostly-normal human afterwards.

Hemalurgy now steals things that are integral to your soul and which are not designed to be taken away from it. Taking away an allomantic or feruchemical power is going to leave a nasty Spiritual scar (not to mention a physical one) and taking away a 'human attribute' like the kandra and koloss spikes steal would be even more obviously debilitating, if they're even survivable at all.

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They already have too few Mistings and Ferrings in the Era 2. Even though Snapping threshold has been massively lowered by Harmony - who didn't bother to re-inject Metallic Arts back into Scadrial population's genes, for some reason(?). And it would be nice if worldhoppers had an option, however expensive, to obtain Allomancy/Feruchemy without murder or causing a massive amount of harm to the donor. Worse than  drab seems to be too extreme. IMHO, YMMV.

1) We don't know how feruchemy got into the Scadrian sDNA in the first place so we don't know what if anything Harmony can do about those. Mistborn only exist because of lerasium and that no longer exists, except for the possibility of additional undiscovered beads. What's happened now is that Scadrians have mostly reverted to their baseline level of Investiture that they had before the Final Empire. The existence of ferrings and twinborn is new but it's been speculated in-universe that they could get feruchemists again through bloodlines with less non-Terris sDNA.

2) Harmony could rewrite people like he did with Spook at the end of HoA but this would go against his beliefs regarding non-interference and could lead to exactly the sort of problems he wants to avoid by doing too much direct response to prayer. He's already worried that he made things too easy for the Elendel Basin area as it is.

3) They already have a method of expanding access to the Metallic Arts without needing hemalurgy and which is available to anyone, Southern Scadrian medallions much?

[Isilel]

43 minutes ago, Weltall said:

 Hemalurgy is literally ripping away a part of your soul so that someone else can profit by it, originally created by the anthromorphic personification of entropy. If you think about what a Drab is, the idea that a hemalurgy survivor would be worse than one of them makes sense.

Are Metallic Arts more intrinsic to people's souls than Breath, which is also part of their souls? After all, giving it away leaves Nalthians with less investiture than average humans have, and, as you say it has serious downsides. 

In any case, the problem is that Metallic abilities have become rare on Era 2 Scadrial, due to both LR's systematic culling of Feruchemists and almost all Allomancers dying prior to and during the Catacendre. Yet, future Scadrian civilization is somehow supposed to be based on Metallic magi-tech. It would be feasible, if Metallic abilities could be accumulated and passed on to the later generations via Hemalurgy... but only if it can be made less morally repugnant.

Now, personally, I think that even so, people, who are dying anyway, should be allowed to make a freely chosen decision to undergo Hemalurgy, if they want to bequeth their abilities to somebody or even to gift Harmony with an opportunity to create more new kandra, but I just don't see Sanderson going there.  

 

43 minutes ago, Weltall said:

 We don't know how feruchemy got into the Scadrian sDNA in the first place so we don't know what if anything Harmony can do about those. Mistborn only exist because of lerasium and that no longer exists, except for the possibility of additional undiscovered beads.

 Didn't Preservation and Ruin put Feruchemy into Scadrians when they created them? And is it impossible for Harmony to use his Preservation half to produce more lerasium? Balancing it with atium production from his Ruin? I mean, there were a lot more Feruchemists around before Rashek's Acsencion, and Harmony certainly changed so much about the planet and it's peoples during the Catacendre, that it is not clear to me why he didn't give them  Feruchemy back at the same levels that they used to have. As far as I can tell, Scadrians are at a significantly lower Investiture levels in Era 2, overall, than they used to be before the Final Empire.

43 minutes ago, Weltall said:

The existence of ferrings and twinborn is new but it's been speculated in-universe that they could get feruchemists again through bloodlines with less non-Terris sDNA.

That would require selective breeding of humans. I don't think so.

43 minutes ago, Weltall said:

 They already have a method of expanding access to the Metallic Arts without needing hemalurgy and which is available to anyone, Southern Scadrian medallions much?

They also require Feruchemists to produce and re-charge, so falling numbers of those would put an end to it. Also, something called "excisors" are involved, of which they have only a set number, inherited from the Sovereign, and they don't know how to make more. Those could be hemalurgic spikes, as Southern Scadrians would be even more desperate to keep Feruchemic abilities around. In any case, theirs is a promising, but rather fragile and unstable magi-tech civilization, which can't be sustained or expanded without more Feruchemists being born... or wide-spread Hemalurgy.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Are Metallic Arts more intrinsic to people's souls than Breath, which is also part of their souls? After all, giving it away leaves Nalthians with less investiture than average humans have, and, as you say it has serious downsides. 

Yes. Breath is literally designed to be given away at will and it keys itself to the Identiy of its recipient so that they can use it immediately. Exchanging Breath is integral to Nalthis' magic system. Allomantic/Feruchemical sDNA is not 'designed' to be given away, in order to transfer the power it must be violently ripped away by stabbing someone through the heart with a metal spike. There is just a small difference between these two methods of Investiture transfer.

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In any case, the problem is that Metallic abilities have become rare on Era 2 Scadrial, due to both LR's systematic culling of Feruchemists and almost all Allomancers dying prior to and during the Catacendre. Yet, future Scadrian civilization is somehow supposed to be based on Metallic magi-tech. It would be feasible, if Metallic abilities could be accumulated and passed on to the later generations via Hemalurgy... but only if it can be made less morally repugnant.

Why are you assuming that the current level of Investiture is somehow insufficient to sustain the future Scadrian civilization? They don't need allomancy or feruchemy for a lot of what they're doing, though it certainly makes things easier. They've independently developed steam power (twice over, it existed pre-Final Empire and they were getting close to railroads) and the radio and have an extremely advanced understanding of metallurgy. There's no particular reason they couldn't develop the principles of flight exactly how we did on Earth, or computing, it's just that they have the Metallic Arts to provide alternative means of doing these things that they may come up with instead. The only nut we know they're set to crack and we can't explain is FTL travel because it's not something we know how to do, but if real-world humans ever figured it out there's little reason to think the Scadrians couldn't as well. Remember, it's the Cosmere's Earth-analogue. The Metallic Arts enhance their civilization but they aren't dependant on it to the extent that they need soul-ripping blood magic to make it work, or for Brandon to revise what he's established about hemalurgy.

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Now, personally, I think that even so, people, who are dying anyway, should be allowed to make a freely chosen decision to undergo Hemalurgy, if they want to bequeth their abilities to somebody or even to gift Harmony with an opportunity to create more new kandra, but I just don't see Sanderson going there. 

This is indeed a good subject for debate, in and out of universe. It still doesn't mean that Scadrial needs hemalurgy to progress unless you can demonstrate somehow that there are things that absolutely require more Investiture in the population than currently exists.

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 Didn't Preservation and Ruin put Feruchemy into Scadrians when they created them? And is it impossible for Harmony to use his Preservation half to produce more lerasium? Balancing it with atium production from his Ruin?

All we know is that feruchemy is the magic system that resulted from Scadrians being made of both Preservation and Ruin. How it arose and why it was limited to the Teris people are RAFOs. As for producing more atium or lerasium, Brandon has said that those no longer exist but there could be some left over from before the Catacendre.

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That would require selective breeding of humans. I don't think so.

The Terris elders are already working along these lines as of Bands of Mourning (reread the conversation with VenDell in Chapter 4) so yes, I think so.

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They also require Feruchemists to produce and re-charge, so falling numbers of those would put an end to it. Also, something called "excisors" are involved, of which they have only a set number, inherited from the Sovereign, and they don't know how to make more. Those could be hemalurgic spikes, as Southern Scadrians would be even more desperate to keep Feruchemic abilities around. In any case, theirs is a promising, but rather fragile and unstable magi-tech civilization, which can't be sustained or expanded without more Feruchemists being born... or wide-spread Hemalurgy.

We don't know what the excisors are and there's clearly more to it than just 'hemalurgic spike' or the Southerners could use those to give themselves powers and not need medallions at all. They're clearly able to produce the things in some quantity and Allik describes the creation of multi-power medallions as a thing of skill. This WoB might be of some interest:

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Yata [PENDING REVIEW]

If you have 32 Misting and Ferring, every kind possible, without using Hemalurgy, you can craft a medallion? Without the aftermath of the--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So could you craft a medallion... without-- oh. That should be possible, but this is one of the things where I have to dig out the notes and double-check myself. But this should be possible.

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In any event, you have asserted but not demonstrated that Scadrian society is somehow dependant on the Metallic Arts, when there's no evidence that this is the case except in the extreme long term with FTL travel. In the absence of a very good argument, there's no reason to think that Brandon would need to rewrite the book on hemalurgy to make future Scadrial work.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Weltall