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[OB] the timeskip after OB


Diomedes

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How does Lopen's use of the powers show anything to do with his oath progression?

Lopen thinks the powers themselves are cool and has tried his hardest to get them ever since he learned of them. He's probably messing with them constantly and one of the most practiced with them in bridge four. 

That doesn't mean he's focused on or grown in the Oaths themselves at all. 

Considering their attitudes and their demeanor and the things their shown to think about, the order of Teft over Lopen makes perfect sense. 

Teft rejection of the bond up until that point was in itself adhering to the Oaths. He felt he was protecting the others from him. 

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1 hour ago, RShara said:

Yeah, with super high infant and maternal mortality...

Shallan would likely be ok but...

And then there's the mental and emotional part...

I don't think having a healthy baby is really an issue, she's almost 20 earth years old, its more the mental and emotional aspect. Shallan was a complete mess in OB, and its really hard to tell where shes at in the end, she's better, but how much? Shallan can barely take care of herself at this point, and so many other things are going on in her narrative, I just dont see how her having a baby makes much sense not only for her character, but from a narrative standpoint. Knowing Shallans character and all her issues, coupled with the fact that shes one of the most important people on Roshar when it comes to fighting this new desolation; shes not only emotionally incapable of raising a child at this point but she doesn't even have the time to be pregnant for 6 months, and then take care of a newborn. It just seems like an odd time to add a baby to the mix, considering Shallans mental state and the point at which we are in the story.

I feel like if Shallan is going to have a child, the gap between books 5 and 6 would be the ideal spot. The desolation will most likely be over, and Shallan will hopefully be much more mature and responsible, ready and willing to take on the responsibility of being a mother.

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1 hour ago, GarrethGrey said:

I don't think having a healthy baby is really an issue, she's almost 20 earth years old, its more the mental and emotional aspect. Shallan was a complete mess in OB, and its really hard to tell where shes at in the end, she's better, but how much? Shallan can barely take care of herself at this point, and so many other things are going on in her narrative, I just dont see how her having a baby makes much sense not only for her character, but from a narrative standpoint. Knowing Shallans character and all her issues, coupled with the fact that shes one of the most important people on Roshar when it comes to fighting this new desolation; shes not only emotionally incapable of raising a child at this point but she doesn't even have the time to be pregnant for 6 months, and then take care of a newborn. It just seems like an odd time to add a baby to the mix, considering Shallans mental state and the point at which we are in the story.

I feel like if Shallan is going to have a child, the gap between books 5 and 6 would be the ideal spot. The desolation will most likely be over, and Shallan will hopefully be much more mature and responsible, ready and willing to take on the responsibility of being a mother.

On Earth at least, there's a significant difference in infant health between even a 19 year old and a 20 year old.  The breakdown is actually 16-19, then 20-24. 

But the rest, yes, I definitely agree with you.  Shallan's a wreck.  Slightly less of a wreck than at the worst point, but still a wreck.  Having a child at this point would be a really really REALLY bad idea.

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@maxal

Red herrings are always possible, but if you think of it even the decision to place Toh in Herdaz can make a sense.

I don't think so much of the whole Rira, but the Oathgate in Kurth - the other strenge place in OB. Now this city is part of Rira, historically it was part of the kingdom of Rishir - like Herdaz.

I hold my hopes high to see Toh again - all in all we need a way to connect the other part of Roshar with the main arc and this story left too many questions in the open.

And the Oathgates - they really can't afford to loose much more of them.

Sadly I don't believe this will be answered in the next book - the Oathgate in Vedenar is much more endangered with the infrastructure of Jah Keved shattered, Taravagian not interested in because of his deal with Odium and two frontlines of the Voidbringers nearly at the gates - perhaps Book 4 starts with the message of the fall of Vedenar.

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I am super keen to find out who Toh and Evi are. This must be about more than the plate.

Everyone keeps talking about the plate being Evi's not Toh's. Is that based on anything other than everyone talking about them as " Adolin mother's plate"? I always took it as a dowry thing, it's not that it wasn't Toh's, it just became part of Evi's dowry payment so that Toh got protection.

But I agree he did not seem particularly close to her. Though I love the idea of Toh being the guardian, he seemed an ordinary guardian given he sold her to a bloodthirsty warlord.  A neglectful, selfish brother actually seems more plausible.

I do wonder if Rira might not come up until Renarin's book, given that will be where we will see a bit more of Evi and it would give a nice symetry to things.

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I remember one of the first things after OB was to print a map of Roshar and doing the same coloring like Dalinar - and it was as if I could see what Odium was/is planning.

The Voidbringers in Marat, in Alethkar and on the way on the Purelake - Route - all of this was pointing to Jah Keved.

Jah Keved with another Oathgate, but more dangerous - the Horneater Mountains with the Shardpool of Cultivation. And Odium wants to be free - one step, if not THE step to reach this goal is to splinter Cultivation. Hasn't Taravagian mentioned something like that?

We were mostly on the Shattered Plain in Book 1 and 2, OB has brought Alethkar and Thaylenar, the next is possible Jah Keved.

Venli is on the way to Marat IIRC and I hope she'll work from within with the Parshmen.

Thanks to Dalinar and his Radiants Thaylenar still stands and so the way to act over the sea is furthermore open.

Rock is now ...what? ....I hate the trick with unfinished sentences...but whatever it seems to be something with his status in the Horneater region. There's the feeling we will need him.

And I will get perhaps another darling of mine - Redin. I've waited for him longer than for Toh.

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On 2/6/2018 at 7:27 PM, Varenus said:

But Nale didn't know he was making a lapse, he was acting in the way he thought proper. That means low amounts of skybreakers, which means he can't just make anyone and everyone into a skybreaker. His internal logic still holds, even if he is insane and was manipulated by Ishar. Perhaps he doesn't choose the best people every time, but his fourth oath skybreakers are part of the process as well. 

But it's stupidity to the point of disbelief. Do something stupid to Impress Nale? sure. Commit a crime to impress the Herald of Justice? Not likely.

Also: if we need to count on the stupidity of our villains to have the plot make sense, then something is wrong imo.

Really my issue is with Shallan's backstory, not this acolyte. Currently, too many things in her past are "just because" for my tastes. If that makes sense. 

And Sanderson and easily make them not “just because”. Half of Shallan’s arc is based off of delusion and self-deception. He can easily turn any weirdness in her backstory into something else.

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I think Balat will be healed in Urithiru, and become a squire/Radiant. I'd guess a dustbringer because he likes "seeing what's inside" but that could be complicated by the dustbringer spren hating humans.

The Davar family will probably also become fairly influential, maybe with Balat becoming a highprince as well.

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18 hours ago, Calderis said:

How does Lopen's use of the powers show anything to do with his oath progression?

Lopen thinks the powers themselves are cool and has tried his hardest to get them ever since he learned of them. He's probably messing with them constantly and one of the most practiced with them in bridge four. 

That doesn't mean he's focused on or grown in the Oaths themselves at all. 

Considering their attitudes and their demeanor and the things their shown to think about, the order of Teft over Lopen makes perfect sense. 

Teft rejection of the bond up until that point was in itself adhering to the Oaths. He felt he was protecting the others from him. 

If we look at the entire Radiant cast, we have a horde of deeply broken, sometimes barely functional individuals, trying to reforge themselves through the Nahel Bond. They are often reluctant, thinking they are not up to the task, they take two steps backwards for each step forward. Their progress, even if relatively fast, seems slow on a narrative point of view.

Then we have Lopen. Lopen who wanted to be a Radiant from Day One. Lopen who's been trying to surgebinde ever since he learned it was a possibility. Lopen who did everything he could to become a Radiant. His behavior is the complete opposite to the other characters, especially Teft he is, I believe, made to mirror. During the small time lapse, we had Teft who refused to progress, who asked himself all the questions he could, who took to Radianhood in a rather backward way and then we had Lopen who never once expressed doubts or anything other feelings than eagerness towards the prospect of moving up. When his spren finally agrees to bond him, their speech made it sound as if he has been trying to convince her for a while.

Hence, I do think Lopen's character exists for the purpose of showing us an alternative progression path for Radiants, one where the individual compensate not being broken by being extraordinarily open-minded, eager and willing to forge himself into a Radiant.

Either way, having Lopen swore his oath after Teft makes sense on a narrative perspective because it offers greater contrast with Teft. Lopen is the character which confirms the rule stating: "There are other ways to become a Radiant than being broken.".

19 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

I don't think having a healthy baby is really an issue, she's almost 20 earth years old, its more the mental and emotional aspect. Shallan was a complete mess in OB, and its really hard to tell where shes at in the end, she's better, but how much? Shallan can barely take care of herself at this point, and so many other things are going on in her narrative, I just dont see how her having a baby makes much sense not only for her character, but from a narrative standpoint. Knowing Shallans character and all her issues, coupled with the fact that shes one of the most important people on Roshar when it comes to fighting this new desolation; shes not only emotionally incapable of raising a child at this point but she doesn't even have the time to be pregnant for 6 months, and then take care of a newborn. It just seems like an odd time to add a baby to the mix, considering Shallans mental state and the point at which we are in the story.

I feel like if Shallan is going to have a child, the gap between books 5 and 6 would be the ideal spot. The desolation will most likely be over, and Shallan will hopefully be much more mature and responsible, ready and willing to take on the responsibility of being a mother.

While I understand the reluctance some readers have towards Adolin/Shallan having a child, I personally find it a more plausible outcome than the opposite.

I fear we are thinking too heavily with our 21st century mind frames and not enough from Alethkar's mind frame. In other words, while our society promotes the idea people have to wait until the conditions are perfect, until they are absolutely irrevocably sure they are ready before having a child, it isn't so within many other cultures nor was it so just a century ago. Hence, the idea Adolin/Shallan, in a world where contraceptives, as far as we are aware, aren't what they are today (which means ineffective, dry nets probably being made of animals intestines: these cannot be false-proof just as the good old modern rubber thing-y absolutely isn't either) will somehow have enough control not to have a child based on the idea they will both share our modern day ideas wanting them "not to be ready for it" does not seem to fit within the narrative. Therefore, unless Adolin/Shallan decides, from a common agreement, they would not have sex, the probability of Shallan not getting pregnant is very small. Medias make a big deal out of infertility which made some people believe it is hard to get pregnant, it takes time, but truth is, for most people, it doesn't really. Unprotected frequent sex will get most young women pregnant within a 6 months time frame. If women such as Navani and Evi had only two children, it may be because they spent to much time away from their husbands: in other words, they weren't having sex very often.

I also find the idea Shallan is unable to have a child because she is too messed up is too modern for Roshar. Whether or not to have a child, for a married couple, is a very recent questioning: my own parents didn't have much of those questions. Back in their days, you got married, you had children, period. You didn't ponder as to whether or not you are advanced enough in your personal growth to have them. If you didn't want children, you didn't get married. Hence promoting the idea Shallan will have the reflective capacities and the insights of 21st century teenagers is really... asking for a different context all together. She is likely to just get pregnant without having had the time to really think about it.

As a result, I find it incredibly probable Shallan will have a child within the near future, perhaps not within the one year gap, but soon enough. As for what it would mean for the narrative, I think it does not need to be a major story arc. Gavilar has existed since WoK and wasn't mentioned until OB. Of course, I would not expect a child from Adolin/Shallan to go as unnoticed as little Gavilar, but reality is high born children tend to be raised by nurses. Dalinar chastises Evi, in OB, when she brought the kids to the warcamps as opposed to leaving them in the nearest town with nannies. Adolin speaks of his nanny to whom he asked how babies were made. Thus, the existence of a child will not prevent neither Shallan nor Adolin from being active characters: the baby will just be given to the care of nannies whenever their parents are not available. It isn't so unlike modern day women who worked despite having children: if children doesn't prevent us from having jobs, how can they prevent Shallan from having a life? She has WAY more free-time than I personally do: she has no commute time, she has no dead-lines, she isn't working on projects which demands her to deliver "stuff" in a timely manner, she doesn't have to deal with snow storms. So what if her child is being cared for by a nanny for 2-3 hours a day when she has a meeting or when there is the occasional battle? It is a much better deal than most of us are getting nowadays.

A baby isn't the end of a life: it doesn't prevent women from accomplishing work nor does it have to over-power the narrative. It is just part of life and the minute Brandon decided to marry Shallan to Adolin, he must have thought of children because they are more or less inevitable, unless both characters are infertile. 

14 hours ago, hypatia said:

@maxal

Red herrings are always possible, but if you think of it even the decision to place Toh in Herdaz can make a sense.

I don't think so much of the whole Rira, but the Oathgate in Kurth - the other strenge place in OB. Now this city is part of Rira, historically it was part of the kingdom of Rishir - like Herdaz.

I hold my hopes high to see Toh again - all in all we need a way to connect the other part of Roshar with the main arc and this story left too many questions in the open.

And the Oathgates - they really can't afford to loose much more of them.

Sadly I don't believe this will be answered in the next book - the Oathgate in Vedenar is much more endangered with the infrastructure of Jah Keved shattered, Taravagian not interested in because of his deal with Odium and two frontlines of the Voidbringers nearly at the gates - perhaps Book 4 starts with the message of the fall of Vedenar.

When a brother was introduced within the flashbacks, I expected him to die, at some point because neither Adolin nor Renarin mentioned another uncle. I never guessed he would still be alive, but exiled far-away. Of course, I wondered about this, just as I wondered about what pushed Evi/Toh to run away from Rira and to seek solace into Alethkar. I mean, there were other closer countries where their Plate would have secure them an easy quiet life. Why go through the trouble of reaching Alethkar, then seeking the protecting of the worst warlords they could find? 

Who were they so scared of they though only the Kholins was brutish enough to protect them? Why would Evi give herself to Dalinar, a blood-thirsty cold man? What made her desperate enough to think the union was profitable? She wasn't forced, she agreed to it, but it seems to me everything Toh/Evi did happened because the alternative was far worst than the Kholins...

I can't say if more will be answered within the next book or not. You make a valid point in stating Toh choosing Herdaz may not be random.

12 hours ago, Song said:

I am super keen to find out who Toh and Evi are. This must be about more than the plate.

Everyone keeps talking about the plate being Evi's not Toh's. Is that based on anything other than everyone talking about them as " Adolin mother's plate"? I always took it as a dowry thing, it's not that it wasn't Toh's, it just became part of Evi's dowry payment so that Toh got protection.

But I agree he did not seem particularly close to her. Though I love the idea of Toh being the guardian, he seemed an ordinary guardian given he sold her to a bloodthirsty warlord.  A neglectful, selfish brother actually seems more plausible.

I do wonder if Rira might not come up until Renarin's book, given that will be where we will see a bit more of Evi and it would give a nice symetry to things.

Dalinar muses in OB how the Plate belongs to Evi and not to Toh: he finds it odd a Plate would be own by a woman and not his brother. This does give credence to the theory wanting Toh not to really be her brother, but a care-keeper of sorts. Little 4 years old Adolin speaks of it as HIS Plate, so we can perhaps assume it was transferred to him on the day of his birth.

Based on OB, they planned to use the Plate as bargaining money to force the Kholins to protect them from whomever they are running away from. Dalinar also tells Evi she was seeking a warlord to protect her.... Now the question is, from who?

I don't find Toh selfish: Evi agreed to the match. It seems they were both keen on it because they saw it as the best way to protect themselves. They knew the match wasn't terrific, but it seems to me they saw no other options. Why is what I am wondering.

I hope Rira will come back before Renarin's book which won't happen until 20 or 30 years from now. It seems a long time to leave a narrative open.

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@maxal I don't disagree on Lopen's approach, but I do disagree on the reason why.

Being "broken" is completely overhyped in my opinion. It's a similar Cosmere mechanism to snapping in Mistborn. It's also something that in my opinion, eventually happens to just about everyone. It doesn't have to be crazy psychological damage. It just requires trauma. And Lopen has had that obviously with a missing arm. And if it's anything like snapping it's not even about negativity. It's about extremes. Extreme joy would work as well. 

I think the only way to get a bond without being broken is to be young enough that the spiritweb is still growing, and will expand around the bond like a tree will incorporate foreign objects as it grows.

The only point I was trying to make is that proficiency with the surges themselves is not a factor in the internalization of the Ideals. Stormlight efficiency yes, but the actual use is practice. And Lopen's focused on that. 

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@maxal

Me too - I was convinced Toh will die - because of the Iri, because of what happened with Evi - but now I'm not sure if there really was an indication or if it was just because they reminded me of Vivenna and Parlin, partly because both pairs are on the naive side. Anything but thieves...

Is Toh not also under guard of Alethi soldiers in Herdaz? If this is about the Iri then they are possibly more interesting than I thought.

The other oddity for me was the long time to wait for the wedding - what was Evi waiting for? I remember not being sooo convinced about the reason she told Dalinar (I will really have to reread OB - badly)

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19 hours ago, maxal said:

I also find the idea Shallan is unable to have a child because she is too messed up is too modern for Roshar. Whether or not to have a child, for a married couple, is a very recent questioning: my own parents didn't have much of those questions. Back in their days, you got married, you had children, period. You didn't ponder as to whether or not you are advanced enough in your personal growth to have them. If you didn't want children, you didn't get married. Hence promoting the idea Shallan will have the reflective capacities and the insights of 21st century teenagers is really... asking for a different context all together. She is likely to just get pregnant without having had the time to really think about it.

 I hadn't thought of it, but you are right. A few hundred years ago there was only one reason to marry: to have children. Love or even friendship was nice, but a far third (second was to make an alliance between two groups). This went triple for highborns. It was also expected to have their first child within the year of consumation. History is full of recorded cases of queens and ladies giving birth when they were as young as 12. The idea of been too young to have children is fully from the 21st century, not even for most of the 20th century was this truly a concern. Of course with all the end of the world going on right now in Roshar it may be considered an exceptional time, but it seems unlikely. 

I'm also curious how far Venli will get with the singers during the 1 year gap, as a year is a very long time to set down roots for a rebellion or to grasp power. If that is what she wants, Venli is not too predictable.

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I don't get this obsession about Shallan's kid. We haven't even explored Shallan fully, far less having a kid. And they are just starting to courting seriously. Having a kid within a year would be seriously weird. 

I'm looking for Jasnah's reign. She is an interesting character and needs more screen time.

And more details on history, original radiants and heralds. 

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6 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

I don't get this obsession about Shallan's kid. We haven't even explored Shallan fully, far less having a kid. And they are just starting to courting seriously. Having a kid within a year would be seriously weird. 

I'm looking for Jasnah's reign. She is an interesting character and needs more screen time.

And more details on history, original radiants and heralds. 

While I don't really care about the kid storyline one way or the other... The end of OB for Shallan was right before the wedding. Their past courting. It's a valid question.

And queen Jasnah is both amazing and terrifying :D

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On 2/8/2018 at 8:54 PM, Calderis said:

@maxal I don't disagree on Lopen's approach, but I do disagree on the reason why.

Being "broken" is completely overhyped in my opinion. It's a similar Cosmere mechanism to snapping in Mistborn. It's also something that in my opinion, eventually happens to just about everyone. It doesn't have to be crazy psychological damage. It just requires trauma. And Lopen has had that obviously with a missing arm. And if it's anything like snapping it's not even about negativity. It's about extremes. Extreme joy would work as well. 

I think the only way to get a bond without being broken is to be young enough that the spiritweb is still growing, and will expand around the bond like a tree will incorporate foreign objects as it grows.

The only point I was trying to make is that proficiency with the surges themselves is not a factor in the internalization of the Ideals. Stormlight efficiency yes, but the actual use is practice. And Lopen's focused on that. 

While I do agree being broken is currently "over-hyped", I do think we cannot disregards this WoB stating there are "other means" to form a Nahel Bond than pure brokenness or snapping or cracks. There was also this other WoB which stated Lopen did not have a dark past nor anything grim hidden within his personality. He might have lost an arm, but losing a limb doesn't necessarily translate into brokenness, especially if it happened when he was a boy.

Hence, I do think. with Lopen, Brandon tried to show us how someone being exceptionally open, willing and eager about the Nahel Bond might form one, even without being broken, so to speak. I have come to believe the reason "cracks" are needed is because it is the easiest, surest way to open a spirit for the Nahel Bond to take place, but a spirit can be open in a different manner. I do think Lopen wanted it so bad, he opened his mind to it, without it ever needing to crack.

This being said, I don't think Lopen got to be a Radiant because he practiced a lot: the practice was just a side-effect of him wanting to bond a spren. He got better for this reason, but Lopen has been very focused on becoming a Radiant since Day One.

On 2/9/2018 at 5:28 AM, hypatia said:

@maxal

Me too - I was convinced Toh will die - because of the Iri, because of what happened with Evi - but now I'm not sure if there really was an indication or if it was just because they reminded me of Vivenna and Parlin, partly because both pairs are on the naive side. Anything but thieves...

Is Toh not also under guard of Alethi soldiers in Herdaz? If this is about the Iri then they are possibly more interesting than I thought.

The other oddity for me was the long time to wait for the wedding - what was Evi waiting for? I remember not being sooo convinced about the reason she told Dalinar (I will really have to reread OB - badly)

I agree Evi and Toh did not sound like thieves, but I don't think Toh was as innocent as Dalinar made him out to be. It is said, within the narrative, one of the reasons it took so long before Dalinar married Evi was because Toh kept on negotiating new terms into Evi's marriage contract. Of course, we have no idea what may be into it, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out the ownership of the Plate was one of the most discussed elements. I strongly suspect the Plate was made to belong to Evi and then to her firstborn son, never to Dalinar nor the Kholins, though they had the right to use it. The fact Evi owned the Plate is/was, I believe important, but it no way means the narrative will go there.

I assumed Toh was under guard for protection nor for mischief.

The long courtship appeared to have been a combination of several factors: Riran tradition, reaching an agreement onto the marriage contract and Toh/Evi not being sure at all about Dalinar.

On 2/9/2018 at 3:06 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

 I hadn't thought of it, but you are right. A few hundred years ago there was only one reason to marry: to have children. Love or even friendship was nice, but a far third (second was to make an alliance between two groups). This went triple for highborns. It was also expected to have their first child within the year of consumation. History is full of recorded cases of queens and ladies giving birth when they were as young as 12. The idea of been too young to have children is fully from the 21st century, not even for most of the 20th century was this truly a concern. Of course with all the end of the world going on right now in Roshar it may be considered an exceptional time, but it seems unlikely. 

I'm also curious how far Venli will get with the singers during the 1 year gap, as a year is a very long time to set down roots for a rebellion or to grasp power. If that is what she wants, Venli is not too predictable.

It is stated, back in WoK, how Dalinar's decision to allow his son to marry the woman of his choice is frowned upon. Adolin was given a luxury very few of his peers had, though I bear no illusions it will be expected of him to have a heir now he is finally married. Shallan certainly expected to marry a man his father would have chosen, surely she too is well-aware of the need to carry on a heir. Hence the idea those two kids would reflect over the fact "they may not be ready because they haven't solved every single one of their personal issues to have a child" seems too modern for Alethkar.

Shallan certainly isn't too young to be a mother by Alethi standards. If we are to believe the timeline, Navani wasn't any older when she had Jasnah: I don't seen Adolin/Shallan not have sex for fear of procreating a child. 

Hence, a child is a real possibility, though it may not come within the next book, but unless Adolin dies dramatically within book 4, I do expect such child to come.

17 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

I don't get this obsession about Shallan's kid. We haven't even explored Shallan fully, far less having a kid. And they are just starting to courting seriously. Having a kid within a year would be seriously weird. 

I'm looking for Jasnah's reign. She is an interesting character and needs more screen time.

And more details on history, original radiants and heralds. 

She just got married. She loves Adolin. Likely they are having sex, frequently if not everyday. There are no efficient birth control methods we are currently aware of within Alethkar. So unless Shallan is somehow able to choose not to get pregnant as a by-product of her being a Radiant, her getting pregnant very soon is highly plausible. As I said, two young healthy people having frequent unprotected sex will create a child within a few month's time frame. Even worst, when it comes to child making, I really need to emphasis on how it takes only once and while stories of infertile people often make the head lines, there are countless more people who do make a child, on their first trial, by having sex once, on the right day. Say Adolin/Shallan are having sex every two days, then there are at least 4 inter-courses which per month which are likely to result into a child being created. As I said, have sex within the right time frame, every month and it won't be long the woman will be pregnant.

This isn't even a matter of possible, but implausible: child-making is easy. Getting pregnant is, quite frankly, extraordinarily easy and fast for a great deal lot of people: it has to be, hence humanity would have never made it this far. Thus it is not only possible, but highly plausible Shallan would get pregnant and even perhaps give birth within the time gap.

For the rest, I disagree we haven't explored Shallan fully: we just had two full books focusing on practically just her. A child would be a nice change of pace and narrative. Her story arc can't just be about her masks: we've been there, it will get old very fast. A baby might add an interesting dimension to her story arc, refreshing it instead of making it redundant with itself.

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I think without Pattern Shallan would have been pregnant at the end of OB. And as a Lightweaver she has abilities I would have killed to get when my own children were young and hyperactive.

Pattern will become the childsitter and will be on to the next round of adorable sentences.

Edited by hypatia
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@maxal I understand exactly what you've been saying, and I still disagree.

Lopen doesn't need any mental issues or a dark past to be broken. The physical trauma of losing his arm should be enough alone. 

It's the same concept as snapping in Mistborn, and noble children there were physically beaten to cause snapping to occur. 

I'm not discounting any WoBs. The only "other ways" we've seen so far involve a child. Singular. Ive stated what I believe is the case, and why I think it's an acceptable alternative to a constant mechanism throughout the Cosmere. Because "snapping," being broken... Whatever they call it, is a universal mechanism. 

Quote

Jeremy (paraphrased)

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others.

source

 

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7 hours ago, maxal said:

She just got married. She loves Adolin. Likely they are having sex, frequently if not everyday. There are no efficient birth control methods we are currently aware of within Alethkar. So unless Shallan is somehow able to choose not to get pregnant as a by-product of her being a Radiant, her getting pregnant very soon is highly plausible. As I said, two young healthy people having frequent unprotected sex will create a child within a few month's time frame. Even worst, when it comes to child making, I really need to emphasis on how it takes only once and while stories of infertile people often make the head lines, there are countless more people who do make a child, on their first trial, by having sex once, on the right day. Say Adolin/Shallan are having sex every two days, then there are at least 4 inter-courses which per month which are likely to result into a child being created. As I said, have sex within the right time frame, every month and it won't be long the woman will be pregnant.

This isn't even a matter of possible, but implausible: child-making is easy. Getting pregnant is, quite frankly, extraordinarily easy and fast for a great deal lot of people: it has to be, hence humanity would have never made it this far. Thus it is not only possible, but highly plausible Shallan would get pregnant and even perhaps give birth within the time gap.

Honestly, I'll pretend I didn't read that. I understand biology and my point was purely on value add of the child to the story, not on child making concepts. Contraceptives in some form or other have existed even in ancient times and unless Roshar was an exception, I'd like to think she has some form of control. 

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

For the rest, I disagree we haven't explored Shallan fully: we just had two full books focusing on practically just her. A child would be a nice change of pace and narrative. Her story arc can't just be about her masks: we've been there, it will get old very fast. A baby might add an interesting dimension to her story arc, refreshing it instead of making it redundant with itself.

And 2 books later, we still know bare minimum about her past. The currently personality split of Shallan is annoying enough that I don't want to add Mother to it. In fact I'd gladly trade off less Shallan (unless it's history) if it means more Jasnah or Renarin. or Szeth.

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On 7.2.2018 at 1:49 AM, Varenus said:

So he probably wasn't mass recruiting, and the few he did must not have been chosen at random. He must have been somewhat discerning during the recruitment process, even if not all of them would become full Radiants. 

We can estimate Skybreaker numbers, somewhat, from Szeth's PoV:

"There were some fifty here, and that didn't count the dozens who were supposedly out on missions".

So, I'd estimate between one and two hundreds all-told, including the squires. They did seem to have a lot more people more tangentially associated with them, and one has to wonder how the secrecy was maintained, or for that matter, what was done to hopefuls who failed to become squires. One would think that they couldn't just be killed out of hand, but...

On 7.2.2018 at 1:49 AM, Varenus said:

Presumably, if he was with the skybreakers long enough to know they kill radiants(long enough to kill even a child), he would know that he needed a legal excuse.

Except that if this had been the case, then the Skybreakers would have been forced to leave most of the proto-Radiants alone. After all, manufacturing false legal excuses or framing people would have also been unacceptable by this standard. But we know that this wasn't the case - Jasnah is the only non-Skybreaker active surge-binder so far who has been around for about 6 years (Shallan's bond extreme deteritoriation for many years protected her) - and the Ghostbloods letter to Shallan postulates that they have been appearing for 2 decades, if not longer than that, and that the Nale and the Skybreakers destroyed or recruited all others.

I do wonder how the spren who tried to bond humans in a somewhat organized manner and as a group effort - like they Cryptics, Cultivationspren and likely also the Truthwatcher spren, could have been unaware of Nale's - and the highspren, crusade.  Did Nale trap or even kill the Nahel spren forming those bonds in the process, so that if they weren't watched by their fellows at the time, nobody in the Cognitive, apart from the highspren ever learned what happened to them?

On 7.2.2018 at 9:23 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

What I'm most curious what will happen during the year is from Szeth, Ash and Taln. I guess Taln could be semi-comatose for the entire year, but Szeth and Ash know too much, and are very well known figures.

Yea, I can't imagine how Ash or Szeth not telling anything of substance for the whole year could be written in a manner that won't be very contrived. Frankly, I felt that secrets of Gavilar and the Sons of Honor not coming to light in Oathbringer already severely strained plausibility.

Re: Ash and Taln fighting Heralds who joined Odium, I very much hope that no more of them will - IMHO Nale and Ishar (who, I am convinced, is a traitor) are more than enough. In particular, I'd really like female Heralds to shine and redeem themselves, as they have been so obscure and unimportant compared to their male counterparts so far.

 

On 8.2.2018 at 4:35 AM, galendo said:

I'm also imagining that Odium is still around, too.  You know, go for a "defeated but not vanquished" type of ending, at least for the first series.  The only thing that really has to end for a satisfying conclusion to the mini-series is probably the Desolation.  And, of course, whatever the Night of Sorrows is.

Eh, it would be very disappointing, IMHO, if the _Final_ Desolation was dealt with in such a perfunctory manner. I have hoped that the whole series would be one long Desolation, with a lull in the middle, but if not, then it will be 2 distinct ones. Which is why I think that most of the casualities are going to happen in the second series.

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I do wonder how the spren who tried to bond humans in a somewhat organized manner and as a group effort - like they Cryptics, Cultivationspren and likely also the Truthwatcher spren, could have been unaware of Nale's - and the highspren, crusade.  Did Nale trap or even kill the Nahel spren forming those bonds in the process, so that if they weren't watched by their fellows at the time, nobody in the Cognitive, apart from the highspren ever learned what happened to them?

The spren groups could have been aware of Nale and the skybreakers, but willing to risk it anyway. Like I often say, when the end of the world and society is coming, people (and spren) will take a burning branch as a chance, regardless of how unlikely to suceed, over certain death.

48 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Ash and Taln fighting Heralds who joined Odium, I very much hope that no more of them will - IMHO Nale and Ishar (who, I am convinced, is a traitor) are more than enough. In particular, I'd really like female Heralds to shine and redeem themselves, as they have been so obscure and unimportant compared to their male counterparts so far

I'm not too hopeful. After all we have heard that Battar was messing around the Diagram, and there is a soft theory that Vedel was one of the surgeons drawing the blood of victims for Death Rattles. I think Ash and Taln will be genuinely "good" fighting for Honor's side, if continuously struggling with insanity. The others I think will be a mix of insanity, confusion and actions that make little sense or are outright harmful.

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To quote myself from a different topic, this is why I personally think the timeskip exists:

Quote

I think the only big reason for there being a one-year gap is because of Dalinar's writing of Oathbringer. If he's gonna write an entire book by hand after just learning to read, that's gonna take quite a while to write, revise, edit, make extensive copies of, and publish to the rest of the world, at least a year. We know this from experience, and that's in the case of an already published author with unbelievable writing speed and skill. I believe that in the time that year has passed, Dalinar probably will have recently finished writing Oathbringer and published it (maybe the book will even start that way), and the book's reception will play an important part in the story. This is my main reason for believing that Adolin and Shallan will not have a child in that gap, because that is simply not the reason Brandon is spacing books 3 and 4 a year apart. Other reasons have already been listed.

I mean, we don't know how long Oathbringer will be in-world. Seeing as Dalinar has barely learned to write, it might not even be all that long. Just long enough and concise enough to get his message across.

Yeah, and the Shallan/baby thing... no. I just cannot logically believe this is the reason for such a time-skip. The storyline is already convoluted enough as it is (which is not exactly a complaint), and Shallan having a child would just be too much of a contrivance as well as a big addition to the plot.

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