[OB] The Integral of Perfection Through Unity Theory

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 1, 2018

Ok, pedantic point taken (such a stickler @RShara), my post has been updated:

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1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

We can infer with near certainty that there is a God that is greater than Adonalsium...

5 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Ok. I don't think it's in a cycle. I think there will be pieces of the story that fit into the end of the cosmere, but I don't think it's circular in nature. It is an interesting idea, however. I just don't think it's at all likely. First off, the cosmere will have changed greatly by the end. And also, according to my own theories, i do not believe Adonalsium had a human vessel, but instead had an infinite mind, constructed of the Spiritual realm itself (refer yourself to my theory in my signature, it's my best cosmere work).

First off, I really like your post on the Spiritual Realm Steeldancer, it's one of the best theory pages I've ever read.

I don't think that Adonalsium ever had a human vessel either, and I also don't think he has actually been killed (just his mind shattered into separate fragments). I think that instead of just a Cosmic Mind made of Spiritual Energy, Adonalsium is the substance of the whole Cosmere. All matter, all energy and all Spiritual Energy is part of his substantive form. I think the whole Cosmere was created and became Adonalsium as the whole Cosmere began to become sentient, and after Adonalsium became sentient he used his spiritual energy to create, we know that the Rosharan system for instance was directly created by Adonalsium (just like Ruin and Preservation used their Spiritual Energy to create Scadrial).

The cyclical nature of this theory is really a repeating cycle of Adonalsium being then becoming. Unity shattered, disperesed, fused again and changed but still somewhat the same. The interesting part is that this might be a cosmic scale process with a purpose, namely that of Adonalsium Knowing Himself more and thereby being able to Become a better more perfect god.

Calderis · February 1, 2018

On Vin and the Beyond. The Shards are not able to touch or see the Beyond. Vin had no more proof than anyone else what it was. She obviously believed that there was more, and what that is is up to the reader.

Borio Singaldi · February 1, 2018

Just gonna get it out of the way that I'm not saying I think the Shard's Intent isn't Odium -- I think it is. Passion could be considered... an interpretation of that Intent, as it is entailed in Odium's actions. Or perhaps it's simply a part of it. But this is a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth our time, detracting from the original purpose of this thread. Please ignore what I said regarding that and just pay attention to what I said regarding this integral of perfection theory.

(I accidentally posted this a bit later than I meant to, sorry.)

Edited February 1, 2018 by Firerust

RShara · February 1, 2018

12 minutes ago, Firerust said:

Just gonna get it out of the way that I'm not saying I think the Shard's Intent isn't Odium -- I think it is. Passion could be considered... an interpretation of that Intent, as it is entailed in Odium's actions. Or perhaps it's simply a part of it. But this is a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth our time, detracting from the original purpose of this thread. Please ignore what I said regarding that and just pay attention to what I said regarding this integral of perfection theory.

(I accidentally posted this a bit later than I meant to, sorry.)

Sorry, I just don't agree. Brandon makes the distinction between Rayse and Odium, as do Frost and Hoid, too often for me to believe the Shard is actually Passion. Passion isn't inherently selfish. Passion isn't "The most dangerous of all the Shards." Passion wouldn't be "the weight of God's own divine hatred." I just don't think it's plausible.

Besides, we have Devotion, which is Love. Ambition, and Autonomy could also be considered passionate, in their ways. So it's Passion minus love, minus ambition, minus autonomy (self-determination)? It doesn't make sense.

Edited February 1, 2018 by RShara

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 1, 2018

I kissed off work last night to write an epic follow up post—I didn't finish it until about 10:30 this morning, I was going back to add some WoB references and I accidentally closed the tab.

Poof, it was gone.

So this is not the greatest post in the world, this is just a tribute. Lost to the black vacuum of an uncaring Iterweb, genius died with a misplaced click. So sad, so sad.

I will address some of the points brought up in other posts on this thread later, right now I am too sad.

Calderis · February 1, 2018

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine

My condolences, and a flee-goo-gee-goo, gee-heeyee for your lost post.

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 4, 2018

Ok, so found some time to try this post again, it was really sad when the original post that took 5+ hours to put together disappeared, but maybe that happened for a reason...Maybe Adonalsium is working through this chance agency to make this theory better...

All referenced WoBs are spoilered at the bottom of the post.

NotBurtReynolds, I really like your OP but there are some things that I disagree with:

On 1/31/2018 at 0:12 PM, NotBurtReynolds said:

This Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of Vessels of Adonalsium, mirroring real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in an endless(and possibly beginning-less) cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That the Vessel of Adonalsium uses their time holding the power to shape and guide the Cosmere, in pursuit of becoming the perfect form of whatever it is that god would consider perfect.

I don't think that Adonalsium would be guided by a Vessel in the same way that a shard of Adonalsium is guided by a Vessel. We know from several WoBs that the base intent of a Shard can only be affected to a small degree by the will of the Vessel[1] and that when the shard broke off from Adonalsium it took something with it and this is why the intent is so resistant to change[2]. They have the power to shift the base intent to a synonymous intent (like changing Love to Deep Affection) [3]. Also we know that eventually over time the inherent intent of the Shard begins to assert itself further decreasing the actual agency of the Vessel and the will of the Vessel doesn't modify the intent of the shard permanently [4]. This effect of the Vessel being subsumed into the greater will of the Fragment of God's mind would most likely be many orders of magnitude greater when a mortal Vessel was subject to the full unified whole of the great galactic mind. I think if a Vessel did fully reform Adonalsium their individual Identity would be quickly subsumed and incorporated into Adonalsium (so it wouldn't be so much the case that Dalinar would be the new Adonalsium, but rather that Dalinar would become part of the Unified Adonalsium).

The point that I think is interesting though, is if this repeating cycle theory is true, this wouldn't in anyway diminish the role of the Vessel. The Vessel's journey, ideals, and intentions would be primary evidence used by the galactic mind to figure out what qualites/virtues/attributes/experiences allowed the Vessel to overcome the division between the current aspects of his divided mind.

On 1/31/2018 at 0:12 PM, NotBurtReynolds said:

Eventually the Vessel reaches a plateau, wherein the only way to evolve to a more perfect Adonalsium is by allowing it's power to be Shattered into the different Intents of god. Intents which change with every cycle, according to what is needed to Advance in godhood this time, but one that is always the Hate of god. Or Odium. Or whatever synonym you want. But not the passion of god, regardless of what Rayse thinks. The part of god that may be necessary, but without the context of the other aspects, is the ultimate destructive force.

I don't think that it necessarily has to be the case that you are always left with one villainous intent, specifically Odium. I think the fact that any of the intents when given absolute primacy could be just as bad is a much better point. Anything taken to excess is still excessive (that's a taut tautology). Even shards that seem like positive qualities could be awful taken to their logical Extreme. If Endowment had absolute power, then life wouldn't be allowed to die. All inanimate matter would be made to dance and sing and live a farce of a life, with Endowment playing the part of the great Stromboli, jerking the strings.

I do think that as a result of the shattering of the Cosmic mind into different base drives, you will have the inevitability of conflict, because if there was no conflict there would be no experience. But intents like Wrath, Prejudice, Vengeance and Retribution are all possible Odium like potential points of cleavage in the Galactic mind and limiting the shattering to always produce a Manichean villain shard Odium is necessarily limiting the full range of possible Experience.

To address your points about Adonalsium foreknowledge and control over his own shattering, i think we have to examine some different potential cases for combinations of Omniscience and Omnipotence. If Adonalsium was:

Omniscient and Omnipotent: He would both have foreknowledge of the shattering and would have had direct control over the events that led to the shattering. He would be the classical Predeterministic God of the Calvinists, everything that happens or will ever happen will be unfolding as he has seen and as he has made it to be. This is antithetical to the premise that Adonalsium shattered to become a more perfect god because this is a static unchanging god that presupposes perfection. The case against Adonalsium being this type of God is that the moral systems in all of the Cosmere works are driven by freewill and agency on the part of the moral actors. Hrathren's supposed betrayal of his leader Wyrm is the moral pivot on which swings the fate of Elantris. The Ideals of the Knights Radiants are volitionally sworn, Sazed chooses to Believe again coming out of the fog of disillusionment to "unfortunately" be the Hero.
Omniscent and Powerful but not all powerful: He would have foreknowledge of the shattering, but may or may not be able to influence the events that lead directly up to and follow the shattering. If he is like the One in the Iriali religion, this would not be the type of God he is either. Omniscience is antithetical to insight gained through experience. An all knowing being, by defintion knows all, direct living experience would have nothing to teach a god like this.
Far Seeing but not all seeing and Omnipotent: He could possibly have foreknowledge about the shattering, and if he did he could have made it happen. He could have foreknowledge of the shattering and could have also made it happen. He could have no foreknowledge of the shattering but instead have been manipulating events on a cosmic scale to maximize potential for growth experience, which could inadvertently lead to his shattering. This is the type of God Adonalsium most likely is. There is WoB [5] that highly suggests that Adonalsium's power is infinite, but the limiting capacity on the understanding/application/and use of this power is the finitude of the Mind that is directing this power. This applies to the Shards of Adonalsium's mind as well, and the limit on the powers of the individual intent are two fold, firstly the limited prescience of the Vessel holding the shard, and second the limiting lens of the intent of the shard itself. I suspect that this is the type of God that Adonalsium is.
Far Seeing but not all Seeing and Powerful but not All Powerful: He most likely wouldn't have been able to see the shattering coming and most likely wouldn't have been able to manipulate events to make the shattering happen based on a pre-determined ideal point of division (I think the Ideal point of division would be the principle that can in effect reunite the intents of his shattered mind, and possibly this intent always has a secondary drive to the intent of Unity, this might be encoded in all pieces of the mind of god. Even Odium's process of Elimination is a Unity of sort, in that by striving to be the only active piece of God's mind Odium would be attempting to clarify the mind of god as one single component. This would be Unity through destruction. Over the long timescale of cosmic time, we know that Investiture naturally coalesces into setience from these WoBs [6] [7], so eventually you would have the re-coalescing of the shattered fragments of God's mind and the inherent drive for Unity would again kick in until the Mind of God is once again reunified under a principled Intent.

On 1/31/2018 at 0:18 PM, Calderis said:

Also, I don't think Brandon wants to recreat WoT.

And this:

On 1/31/2018 at 1:49 PM, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Sooo.. is this Mr S foreshadowing / apologising so he can get away with accidently/ intentionally stealing someone eles / his own idea?

I think not.. Mr S is to good to steal

So the arguments against this being a re-purposing of the Wheel of Time's never ending repeating cycle are twofold:

First, any cyclical process viewed through one iteration looks like a linear progression. I think that we may only see one cycle of this, but I do think this idea is awesome, and would make it possible to have Cosmere Era 2 with different Shardworlds and Shardic magic systems based on a different base division of intents. I am an eternal optimist, so this is in fact my secret hope.
Second, there is an in world explanation by Hoid that prefigures the criticism of this series being Derivative. When Hoid is waiting for Taln to show up at Kholinar he has a long soliloquy about what Virtue people value most, he suggests it's Novelty and then immediately shows that it's not Novelty at all but rather timing. There are no original ideas in the world only novel synthesis. To repeat an idea is inevitable, but how the idea is combined with other ideas is the soul of creation. The synthesis is greater than the parts. Herein lies Brandon's true genius, an incredibly well thought out synthesis of some of the most interesting ideas of Philosophy combined with Ingenious magic systems that clearly struggle against their inherent limits.

Finally, what would a theory be worth if it didn't have some predicative capacity? Thought experiments are fun, but I think that this view of Adonalsium reforming as a given and reforming due to how his mind was divided can be seen in some of the more currently opaque actions of some of the more secretive characters and groups in the SLA:

Hoid is actively seeking to collect shardic investiture, and he is actively working to contain Rayse (as evidenced by the Letters). He was present at the shattering, and declined to take up a shard of Adonalsium. If this theory is true, then Hoid could be studying what principled intent results from the combination of different forms of Investiture (i.e. what happens when different intents are admixed), and could be using this gained insight to try and find people in the Cosmere that exemplify these principle/set of principles which will actively help Adonalsium reforge. Also, the scene in WoR where he asks Dalinar about Adonalsium reads a bit like he is trying to awaken through the use of an engram (or deep seated sign, that can be intuited but not necessarily understood) to awaken Dalinar to a deeper purpose. His stories to Kaladin are also coded messages that help him undestand the principles he needs to know to advance towards a greater understanding of himself in relation to his ideals and his interventions with Shallan are also formational, the Girl Who Stood Up was an important revelation for Shallan, the realization that just continuing on in a world of Pain is truly heroic and defines her true power.
We know from the 1st and 2nd Letters that the 17th Shard is an organization that is self tasked with the duty of observing the interplay of the Shardic powers in the cosmere and further that they are actively non-interventionist (meaning they will actively stop others from interfering with the shards, and from this a WoB [8] we know that this includes attempts to bring the shards back together). Frost to Hoid in the 2nd Letter:

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Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain. My path has been chosen very deliberately. Yes, I agree with everything you have said about Rayse, including the severe danger he presents. However, it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we—as infants—stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem.

The view of Frost and the 17th shard is that the Shattering of Adonalsium was possibly a mistake, but meddling in the aftermath might be even more damaging than the actual shattering. This implies a certain belief in Adonalsium's corrective force, like this bit about how Rayse is contained on Roshar (there is a subtle bias towards viewing the problems in the cosmere as self correcting):

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I suspect that he is more a force than an individual now, despite your insistence to the contrary. That force is contained, and an equilibrium reached.

So the prediction we can make about what the 17th Shard will likely do is let nature take it's course as far as the Shards are concerned, but actively try to restrain the other forces at play that are attempting to Unify, or Co-opt the power of the shards.
We know from a WoB [9] the Iyatil was once a member of the 17th shard, and that her pupil Mraize has been collecting artifacts of Investiture. So we can assume that Iyatil and by extension Mraize are as aware of the original shattering of Adonalsium as the other members of the 17th Shard. Their intentions can be guessed at somewhat based on Mraize's statements to Shallan in OB:

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“Morality is an axis that doesn’t interest us,” Mraize said calmly. “Only loyalty and power are relevant, for morality is as ephemeral as the changing weather. It depends upon the angle from which you view it. You will see, as you work with us, that I am right.”

.....

“This is a power we will control, but we must not let either side gain dominance yet. Secure Urithiru. Hunt the source of the darkness you feel, and expunge it. This is your task. And for it I will give payment in information.”

So from these statements and from the Task that Shallan is given at the end of OB to capture and deliver Sja-Anat to the Ghostbloods, they too are interested in studying the interplay of different forms of Investiture, but their interest does not lie in Unifying or letting the power of Shards play out in a natural unmodified state. They are interested in the application of Power. They want to control this power, the ultimate end of what they would do with this power are unknown, but it's most likely just the collection of power for the sake of projecting power. I've speculated before that they seem to be most closely aligned with the intent of Ambition, and maybe one of their long term goals is to reunite the splinters of Ambition (intereting to note that this would still be in service of the Unification of the Mind of Adonalsium).
The Ire in MB:SH had a plan to take up the power of Preservation with their special instant Spiritual Connection grenade. They were living on the outskirts of Scadrial's sub-astral for a long time, waiting for this moment to pick up the power of a dying Shard of God. The fact that they were in the Cognitive Realm and Trying to pick up a Shards power implies somewhat they might have been planning to use the power of Preservation to reunite Devotion at the least and possibly even combine the Splintered bits of Devotion and Dominion into a new unitary whole (like Crusade or some such intent).

This is a small fraction of the original post that was lost, but since this is still a wall of text it's probably for the best that the original one was lost.

Here are the referenced and spoilered WoBs:

Spoiler

[1] Shard holders actively fighting intent, but intent struggles to manifest :

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zotsandcrambles

You've mentioned that a person's personality eventually erodes and is replaced by the will of the shard they hold. Besides Harmony, are there any Shards holders that are still actively and significantly defying the intent of their shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Kellsier

Is Harmony ([Sazed], for instance) actively trying to fight against it's shard intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Its intent(s) match Sazed very well, actually, and he has the philosophy that these natural powers are best minded and not dominated. So while he pushes back against the inaction holding both of them has caused, he appreciates and understands the need for both. I'd say he has less "push back" than some others.
source

[2] Shard took something with it when it broke off:

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Questioner

I was just wondering if a Shard's Intent can change over time without changing holders?

Brandon Sanderson

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the Intent is interpreted, but what the Intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same Intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.
source

[3] Change intent to synonym of intent:

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We know Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change? Or could someone pick up the Shard of Honor and think--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*hesitantly* Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing-- I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.
source

[4] Contest of wills, shardholder leaves no imprint of will on the shard after they cease holding it:

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.
source

[5] Adonasium's Infinite Power:

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.
source

[6] Investiture develops sentience like in Spren:

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Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.
source

[7] Investiture has an internal drive to become sentient, almost an inherent intent:

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CosmereQuestioner

The background to my question is this:

It was once stated by Mr Sanderson that "Magic in the cosmere needs a guiding force. If it doesn't have one, the magic itself will gain sentience." We also have that things like Nightblood that gained sentience because of crazy amounts of investiture.

My question then is:

"Is the reason that investiture has this tendency to lead to sentience caused by the fact that pre-Shattering Adonalsium had a goal/purpose/intent of bringing sentience to his universe."

(I guess this is in a way a 2 part question, because it assumes that Adonalsium actually HAD the intent of bringing sentience to his cosmere)

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is part of the reason. Good question!
source

[8] 17th Shard Non-interventionist like Star Fleet, think that the Shards should stay separate:

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Dragon13

Are there requirements to join the Seventeenth Shard, and would they accept, for lack of a better term, a non-enhanced member?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and yes... Baon is not Invested...

Questioner 1

What would they not like? 'Cause, like, we know they don't like Hoid, and what he's doing-- *laguhter*

Brandon Sanderson

They do like what Khriss is doing, alright? This is an acceptable thing to them.

Questioner 1

...What about when people start integrating themselves with a culture, is that gonna make problems?

Brandon Sanderson

They would prefer that people didn't do that.

Questioner 2

So not Vasher?

Brandon Sanderson

Not Va-- Vasher is very far from being Seventeenth Shard. *laughter* So very far.

Argent

Would you say they are a community of scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

They are a community-- They are not all scholars, so I would not say that. I would say they are interested parties who do not want any planets to get destroyed.

Questioner 3

So they're the Apocalypse Guard? *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

No, they aren't really able to prevent these sorts of things. They're more like the-- Oh what do they call them in DC? The Watchers? ...But those guys are super powerful and stuff, so it's not like that. But you can imagine it's something like that. "We're watching, we're studying' we're investigating, and we're trying to prevent-- ...They're like Starfleet, right? They've got some Starfleet stuff rihgt? "We're gonna go research and study these people, but we shouldn't be involved." It's less about Prime Directive, and more about "What if something we do causes-- esacerbates the conflict between the Shards." the Shards split up for a reason, is what they think, right? Shards split up for a reason, they should continue to be split up, we should not dabble in bringing them together.
source

[9] Iyatil was a member of the 17th Shard:

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Ace0003 [PENDING REVIEW]

[Can you write] something interesting about the Seventeeth Shard? ...Or how about this, a character that's in the Seventeenth Shard that we don't know about?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*spoken* ...I can do that--

*written* So... Iyatil was once in the 17th Shard...
source

NotBurtReynolds · February 6, 2018

Man, I've been away for a while .

As far as any defense of my theory goes...I don't have much ..Probably because I guess I don't look at these things as theories, in so much as they're ideas I think could be possible given the information we have about the system we're dealing with. Mostly because I am of the strong opinion that I won't ever be able to figure out the actual mechanics of how the Cosmere mysteries are going to shake out .Not because readers aren't smart and can't figure out the breadcrumbs Sanderson leaves, but because I don't think he's ever going to give us enough information to figure out many of the largest mysteries. I knew after reading HoA that this was an author whom I was not going to be able to out-guess his endings, and as the stories have continued I see the same theme continue...Some things are un-figure-out-able and can only be figured out with new information, not just by sleuthing and obsessive reading.

Case in point:

I haven't been on the 17th Shard long, so I'm not going to make a blanket statement that no one nailed the circumstances of Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher, what his boon/curse was, and how it related to the visions...because then I'm sure I'll get a link to some forum post from 3 years ago where someone nailed it all. But, I think its safe to say that the general populace of readers was way off as it regarded to those mysteries. I feel like a lot of people(including myself) felt with strong confidence that Dalinar's memory loss and his visions were results of his interaction with the Nightwatcher. May not know which was which, as far as boon/curse goes, but those feelings were most of the discussions I saw...Which makes total sense, given the information we had thus far. But we(I, at least;) were wrong. Visions were granted by the Stormfather and had zero to do with the Nightwatcher and Dalinar was 'pruned' by Cultivation. I don't think those things could've been sussed out with deductive reasoning. And even though I guess smarter people than I could get there with inductive reasoning, I still say it'd be more of a lucky guess to get that the source of the visions is the Stormfather and that Cultivation did a number on Dalinar's brain as part of a long term plan to give him the chance to become the man that would be able to resist Odium.

And that's what I love about these books. I don't see reveals like that as "twists", but rather things that only appear to readers as twists because we never had the pertinent information needed in order to make a reasonable guess...we only thought we did.

And while I don't think I'm going to outguess Sanderson(particularly in regards to the ultimate ending of his entire Cosmere;), I do enjoy thinking about ideas and guesses that could fit into the story, given the cosmere construct that's been revealed to us thus far. Which this theory does, I believe, regardless of 'that's just WoT' out-of-hand dismissals. I looked at the Cosmere "system" and ran out the possibilities you could have if you started from a place where the only way to make a greater god was by destroying the old one, in order to sharpen the pieces and reform as something greater. Which, regardless of my OP, I think also works as a concept if you remove the "infinite Adonalsiums" portion and only make it a 1-time Shattering. I don't know how we're going to get there, I just think that the Shattering will ultimately result in something greater than the Shattering.

From @hoiditthroughthegrapevine

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At the Portland Oathbringer Signing I asked Brandon something similar to this, but slightly inverted. I didn't record my question because I wanted a picture with Brandon instead, so this isn't on Arcanum.

I asked him if Hoid was really the Girl Who Looked Up? And if this story of the stealing of the Light from behind the wall was the really the story of the Shattering of Adonalsium, and if the ones who broke God into shards did so to investigate the constituent components of Divinity?

He said that this was on the right track, but not quite right.

Now, I'm not claiming this as some sort of 'gospel' reveal, but the "right track" comment is what makes me think that the story of the Shattering cannot just be about the beings who Shattered and their motivations for doing so. If Adonalsium was independent of the Shattering(besides being the thing which was Shattered), then I just think it relegates god to a bit player...The Supreme McGuffin, existing only to be goal of our protagonists caper. This thought experiment began for me because I wanted to think about a god needing to be destroyed in order to be a better god, a concept that dovetailed nicely with real-world cosmology concepts that have always piqued my interest. Not to mention paralleling real world religious concepts of a self-sacrificing god.

NotBurtReynolds · February 6, 2018

On 2/4/2018 at 0:56 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

On 2/4/2018 at 0:56 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Ok, so found some time to try this post again, it was really sad when the original post that took 5+ hours to put together disappeared, but maybe that happened for a reason...Maybe Adonalsium is working through this chance agency to make this theory better...

Thank you for taking the time to write it all back out because it's really good stuff. What a pain

Quote

I don't think that Adonalsium would be guided by a Vessel in the same way that a shard of Adonalsium is guided by a Vessel. We know from several WoBs that the base intent of a Shard can only be affected to a small degree by the will of the Vessel[1] and that when the shard broke off from Adonalsium it took something with it and this is why the intent is so resistant to change[2]. They have the power to shift the base intent to a synonymous intent (like changing Love to Deep Affection) [3]. Also we know that eventually over time the inherent intent of the Shard begins to assert itself further decreasing the actual agency of the Vessel and the will of the Vessel doesn't modify the intent of the shard permanently [4]. This effect of the Vessel being subsumed into the greater will of the Fragment of God's mind would most likely be many orders of magnitude greater when a mortal Vessel was subject to the full unified whole of the great galactic mind. I think if a Vessel did fully reform Adonalsium their individual Identity would be quickly subsumed and incorporated into Adonalsium (so it wouldn't be so much the case that Dalinar would be the new Adonalsium, but rather that Dalinar would become part of the Unified Adonalsium).

Yea, I think you're right. Trying to transfer how a Shard is guided by their Vessel directly to how a hypothetical Vessel would be guided by Adonalsium, is kind of a stretch.

I definitely agree that all Shard's Intents will end up as awful when taken to their extreme. My idea for always having Odium was more about wanting a constant in my system with the idea being that you cannot separate the hate of god because it, while vile and seemingly always a negative quality, is a necessary component of divinity which necessarily must be overcome in every cycle. A philosophical underpinning I guess, that claims a circle where a perfect god must have hate, but hate must be overcome to achieve a perfect god.

But, I suppose that we could swap out Odium for any Intent with the goal of each cycle/Shattering was for the other Intents to overcome the 1 which has run amok(Endowment in your example). That would still work I think because the other Intents would be "sharpened"/"made purer"/etc no matter which Intent they were up against, whether it be Odium, Ambition, or even Devotion.

On 2/4/2018 at 0:56 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

So the arguments against this being a re-purposing of the Wheel of Time's never ending repeating cycle are twofold:

First, any cyclical process viewed through one iteration looks like a linear progression. I think that we may only see one cycle of this, but I do think this idea is awesome, and would make it possible to have Cosmere Era 2 with different Shardworlds and Shardic magic systems based on a different base division of intents. I am an eternal optimist, so this is in fact my secret hope.

Second, there is an in world explanation by Hoid that prefigures the criticism of this series being Derivative. When Hoid is waiting for Taln to show up at Kholinar he has a long soliloquy about what Virtue people value most, he suggests it's Novelty and then immediately shows that it's not Novelty at all but rather timing. There are no original ideas in the world only novel synthesis. To repeat an idea is inevitable, but how the idea is combined with other ideas is the soul of creation. The synthesis is greater than the parts. Herein lies Brandon's true genius, an incredibly well thought out synthesis of some of the most interesting ideas of Philosophy combined with Ingenious magic systems that clearly struggle against their inherent limits.

Yes. These words are accepted/appreciated. Like I said before, I'm no WoT scholar but I thought it was pretty simplistic to write this off as a rip-off, considering that it had about a dozen different branch-offs into areas where discussing WoT parallels would have no place. Just saying something is in a never-ending cosmic cycle doesn't make it a WoT copy, because I don't think Jordan can get a copyright considering all the religious ideas that trade off of similar concepts.

It's not the fact that there is a cycle which interests me, its why there is a cycle in the first place and how that cycle continues and for what purpose. And I don't believe the 'whys' and 'hows' I was putting forth have much to do with Lews Therin and the Dark One and their cycle.

But I'm certainly not here to argue WoT

I would like to add, as an aside, one of my favorite things about these forums...That I get to talk to people who obviously know more than me about some of my favorite subjects..ie..philosophy and just writing, in general. I love philosophy. I love writing. I'm trained in neither, rank amateur So it's nice to interact with people who seem to have more formalized knowledge in these areas, because I like to learn. Now, I think I'm probably more well-versed in philosophical concepts than the general populace, but there is a big difference between those who dabble out of intellectual curiosity and those who have obviously done more formal study. I may have listened to(and understood most!;) all of the Philosophize This! podcasts, but that doesn't mean I'm going to come up with something like this off the top of my head:

From @hoiditthroughthegrapevine

Quote

I also really like how this process of self-perfection is necessarily one of Creative Destruction. This is a fusion of the perpetual change world view of Heraclitus with the Unitary being principle of Oneness of Parmenides, in a constant evolving oscillation between states. Freaking awesome!

Running through these forums, I'm always finding examples like this...People who help expand my non-Cosmere knowledge and thought processes through Cosmeric concepts. So thanks, smart folks! Keep it up.

Edited February 6, 2018 by NotBurtReynolds
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Calderis · February 6, 2018

1 hour ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

then I just think it relegates god to a bit player...The Supreme McGuffin, existing only to be goal of our protagonists caper.

This is part of the problem though. Adonalsium was not God.

The allegory to God in the Cosmere is the God Beyond, and we've been told straight out that due to that similarity, we will not get answers there.

The Beyond, and the God Beyond are up to the reader to decide based on their own beliefs and their preferences.

Adonalsium was extremely powerful. Many think of it as a God. But it was not "God"

For context.

Quote

JWMeep

A question about Goradel. His end was very tragic, and was one of the things that had me in tears. The thing that really twisted the knife into me, is that he died that horrible death thinking that he had failed. When everything he tried to survive failed, his final act was to try to prevent the message into falling into Ruin's hands, but even that was futile. With those who seem to be active in the great beyond, did Goradel ever find out about what his actions helped to bring about? Was he ever thanked for his actions?

Brandon Sanderson

Well... I don't want to speak too much about the great beyond in the books, as in my opinion that level of cosmology is influenced by your own beliefs in the hereafter and in deity. Beyond that, I would rather not speak of what happens to the souls beyond the three Realms, as even Sazed doesn't know that.

Perhaps this will help, however. Like most of the leaders of soldiers in this series (Demoux, Wells, and Conrad included,) Goradel is based on and looks like one of my friends. In this case, it's Richard Gordon. He's read the book and cheered for his namesake's sacrifice and eventual victory. So the REAL Goradel knows.
source

Edited February 6, 2018 by Calderis

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 6, 2018

Just have to say first off @NotBurtReynolds, I really like the formulation of your OP, I just had some minor disagreements with some of the points, but overall you did an awesome job summarizing the theory, and your post was incredibly well put together.

1 hour ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Yea, I think you're right. Trying to transfer how a Shard is guided by their Vessel directly to how a hypothetical Vessel would be guided by Adonalsium, is kind of a stretch.

I think this really is a matter of a fundamental incapacity for a being with a Finite mind to contain the near infinitude of the Galactic mind. It would be like a common garter snake trying to swallow a whole world, it's a matter of an innate limit on what is possible. But like I said in the post, I still think that the Vessel that manages to Unify Adonalsium is going to be the central lesson that Adonalsium learns from his division and recombination, precisely because a singular individual was able to reforge the Unitary whole of the Galactic mind.

Here are some additional bits about the predictive quality of this theory that I forgot to add to the recreated post:

Synthesis of religious principles seems to be related to ability to unite shards (the following example is a continuation of this). Sazed was a Terris Worldsinger, he had studied different and conflicting religions from across the Cosmere, this combined with his loss of his love Tindwyl led to a crisis of faith. But his knowledge of conflicting aspects of different religious systems combined with his overriding sense of duty along with his active willful choice to Believe again were all instrumental in him having the capacity to Unite the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin and create a new Unified shard Harmony.
Dalinar, who had personally been touched by the influence of 3 shards, also had a religious journey that allowed him to see the importance of Duty, Unity and trying to do better. I don't think Unity without the underlying goal of trying to do better would have allowed him to have his lowercase "a" ascension, I think this is possibly one of the best proofs of the theory. There was another possible path toward Unification that Odium and the Diagramatists tried to drive Dalinar towards, the path of blood and conquest. But instead, with the help of the Way of Kings and most tellingly of all, with the guiding moral love of Evi and the forgiveness (or grace) that Evi gave him when he was at his lowest, he was able to Unite through a principle of "after falling down, standing up each time a better man". This is powerful stuff, and I think that it hints at this being a greater Cosmere directive than the personal story of one man (no matter how pivotal he is in the unfolding drama on Roshar). Evi believed in the one, she worked constantly to try and make Dalinar a more noble, moral man, and in the end she gave him (not Cultivation) the one thing that he desired, forgiveness. This has to me the touch of the true Divine to it, and I think that One of the Irial is a principle of compassionate love that tries to correct by example, not coercion. This I think is the true path to Unity for the shattered fragments of Gods mind.

1 hour ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

would like to add, as an aside, one of my favorite things about these forums...That I get to talk to people who obviously know more than me about some of my favorite subjects..ie..philosophy and just writing, in general. I love philosophy. I love writing. I'm trained in neither, rank amateur So it's nice to interact with people who seem to have more formalized knowledge in these areas, because I like to learn. Now, I think I'm probably more well-versed in philosophical concepts than the general populace, but there is a big difference between those who dabble out of intellectual curiosity and those who have obviously done more formal study.

Totally agree with this. It's rare to find a place where people are matched in intelligence only by their kindness. I haven't been on the 17th shard that long, but this is truly a special place.

Edited February 6, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 6, 2018

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is part of the problem though. Adonalsium was not God.

The allegory to God in the Cosmere is the God Beyond, and we've been told straight out that due to that similarity, we will not get answers there.

The Beyond, and the God Beyond are up to the reader to decide based on their own beliefs and their preferences.

Adonalsium was extremely powerful. Many think of it as a God. But it was not "God"

I know that Brandon is by design leaving the God Beyond untouched, so to ascribe any direct action/intention to this being would be to cross from the realm of fantasy into the realm of real wold belief. But we can still examine the prima facie evidence of the Cosmere, and build speculative theories based on these facts which possibly extend to parameters beyond which questions will never be resolved. I think this is OK, because inferences can still be drawn from these speculations.

Brandon is not going to be directly confirming or denying anything that touches on his personal beliefs or the beliefs of others in the real world, but Adonalsium could be a part of larger Being within the fantasy Universe that the Cosmere resides in, and could just be another link in the Great Chain of Being with this intermediary pan galactic deity being a link between between Adonalsium and the God Beyond. Even if there is no intermediary pan-galactic intelligence, the theory that creation is an act of self-discovery, and that God is in all things, so all things that are created are part of changing living god is interesting enough that it's worth examining in it's own right.

Also, I think that this theory has some predicative components as I outlined in an earlier post, so to dismiss it as useless because it is a theory about something that will never have a concrete in world answer is not necessarily productive, because almost all metaphysical speculation exists in the vacuum of proof. Just because something is unproveable doesn't make it less interesting to contemplate as a potential explanation for some of the greatest mysteries of life. We know from some WoBs (spoilered below) that the underlying Realmatic theory of the Cosmere is based on the Ideal Forms of Plato, that spren are based on Animistic religions and that questions without answers are deeply interesting to Brandon, because the process of asking these questions is as important in a lot of instances as the anwers to these questions themselves.

Spoiler

Quote

Nepene

You've mentioned several philosophical concepts used in the writing of your books, like Jung's collective unconsciousness, Plato's cave. Could you expand a bit on your use of those in your books, and whether you think it is necessary to use philosophy to make a good fantasy world?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think it's necessary at all. The writer's own fascinations--whatever they are--can add to the writing experience. But yes, some philosophical ideas worked into my fiction. Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm.

As for more examples, they're spread through my fiction. Spinoza is in there a lot, and Jung has a lot to do with the idea of spiritual connectivity (and how the Parshendi can all sing the same songs.)

Nepene

Not completely sure where Spinoaza comes in. I guess the shards are part of the natural world and have no personality without a human wielder.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes on Spinoza there, and also the idea of God being in everything, and everything of one substance. Unifying laws. Those sorts of things. (Less his determinism, though.)
source

This one is good too, has the idea that thought is a self re-inforcing circle. Investiture has a pressure to be sentient, and further is affected by thought and by what thinking things think about it.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I wanted to ask whether cake has a soul? In Realmatic theory, stuff has souls. So, somebody turns wheat into flour, and flour has a soul. Do they come together when I bake the cake?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...So, this gets into some weird cosmere theory stuff. The level that if you are a student of philosophy, you'll recognize just wearing on the sleeve where this one came from. This is a mashup of Shinto beliefs and the theory of the forms by Plato, and kind of its own weird thing, that became Realmatic theory in the cosmere...

So, in the cosmere, things take on an Identity and a soul based on how people perceive them. It's human perception that is creating a lot of this, because the various powers that made the universe have this sort of desire to be sentient. And power left long too long in the cosmere starts thinking, that's just how it goes, and starts thinking of itself the way it is perceived. So, that cake, as soon as its created, the disparate parts of the souls start being thought of as a cake, and start gaining some traction as a cake. If you left that cake alone long enough, which wouldn't take too long for a cake because people don't look at cake and think "Oh, a bunch of wheat and flour." They think "Cake." That thing will start having a combined soul of the various bits of power, and the longer you leave it, the more permanency it's gonna have as a Spiritual artifact in the cosmere.

So, yes, cake has a soul.
source

NotBurtReynolds · February 8, 2018

On 2/6/2018 at 2:02 PM, Calderis said:

This is part of the problem though. Adonalsium was not God.

The allegory to God in the Cosmere is the God Beyond, and we've been told straight out that due to that similarity, we will not get answers there.

The Beyond, and the God Beyond are up to the reader to decide based on their own beliefs and their preferences.

Adonalsium was extremely powerful. Many think of it as a God. But it was not "God"

For context.

Yeah, but Adonalsium was god for the purposes of discussion. God of the Cosmere, by any definition of the word "god". Your objection presupposes a comparison of Adonalsium to the "god" of Earth but the god of Earth plays no part in the ideas I had, allegories or not. We've been told that the Cosmere is a dwarf galaxy and I'm okay with it being a closed system with a supreme being/power without having to involve a "God Beyond". If I ever post something on the God Beyond, just cyber-slap me;)...I'll know it's for my own good.

So I think this is nitpicking on grounds based in nomenclature. I'm using 'god' in this instance, and in all instances in my post, as a word that is something more palatable and familiar than saying 'Adonalsium, the most powerful and supreme being in the Cosmere, who is not omnipotent and omniscient but is pretty damnation close', every time.(Try reading my post while inserting "Adonalsium" for every "god" and tell me how it reads;). This was a narrative issue. And as I'm not a very good writer, I worked as best I could. And as an aside, I also had a lot of difficulty writing my post without using gender-based pronouns for Adonalsium as I was trying my hardest not to presuppose the gender of the Vessel(if there even was a Vessel). And even if I didn't presuppose a Vessel, I just felt like a dick for constantly referring to god as a 'he', given no evidence in it's favor. But eventually I basically gave up on pronoun consistency, as I seemed to be failing horribly.

When I'm talking about 'god', I'm not talking about how it relates to the ideas and thoughts people have on 'god' in our real world. So I'm afraid I don't see this as part of the problem of my post. Although, there are probably a dozen to choose from ;). I'm just using it as a word to describe the supreme being of a universe, as we've been given to understand it. And for purposes of discussion, I don't think it's being intellectually dishonest to refer to Adonalsium as god. I'm not talking about the God Beyond, the God of Moses, or the God of Joseph Smith. I'm talking about Adonalsium. Who was the god of the Cosmere,by any common sense definition, at least for a time.

So call Adonalsium a god, don't call him a god. It doesn't change the fact that I'll think it'll be boring if the most important thing Adonalsium does is get Shattered. Please, tell me more about the nearly all-powerful deity whose main contribution to a story is how he he was broken

Edited February 8, 2018 by NotBurtReynolds
Inexplicable and incorrect use of 'damnation'

NotBurtReynolds · February 8, 2018

On 2/6/2018 at 3:46 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Even if there is no intermediary pan-galactic intelligence, the theory that creation is an act of self-discovery, and that God is in all things, so all things that are created are part of a changing living god is interesting enough that it's worth examining in it's own right.

Reveal hidden contents

This one is good too, has the idea that thought is a self re-inforcing circle. Investiture has a pressure to be sentient, and further is affected by thought and by what thinking things think about it.

I just got home from work and have to go to bed before I can respond to the other stuff, mostly because I have a baby that will wake up at 7am no matter what time I go to bed ...But...

Thank you for succinctly summing up why I even started thinking about these things in the 1st place. Even if it's off-base(which is definitely is!;), it's fun to think about a god only being able to improve via it's own destruction, right? And in my personal opinion, god is more interesting when god isn't god...ie...not a "perfect" supreme being who knows all and can do all.

Is it better to be perfect or to always be striving for perfection? Taken at it's face, of course it's better to be something as opposed to trying to be something. But if you start from the place where perfection is never attainable(using my previous example where you can continue to get closer to a finish line but never actually cross it), then of course the pursuit of perfection is more important than the achievement of...One is possible and one is not.

NotBurtReynolds · February 8, 2018

On 2/6/2018 at 2:04 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Totally agree with this. It's rare to find a place where people are matched in intelligence only by their kindness. I haven't been on the 17th shard that long, but this is truly a special place.

It really is a special place, yeah? At this point in my life, I find most of the internet not to my liking. But this???? 17th Shard is everything I love about the what the internet allows for in connecting with strangers over common bonds. I can just learn if I want, I can just debate if I want... I can do both! I can also use it as a creative outlet to write about the things I'm thinking about as I fall asleep at night and don't want to annoy my wife with "nerd-stuff"*. This place is great.**

*Please don't take any negative connotation from the phrase "nerd-stuff"...My wife just likes to have any excuse to proudly call me a nerd She's actually the best. Here's a recent conversation for context:

Wife(seeing me spend a lot of time typing): Everything ok? You've been writing intensely for a while.

Me: Yeah, fine...Yada..yada...been writing this big long Cosmere thing..yada..yada..

Wife: Nerd stuff? That's a pretty long one.

Me: Oh yeah? Check this out(I scroll up, revealing I've written much more than she previously thought). 5 thousand-ish words.

Wife: Nick. You're ridiculous.

Me: That's Ri-nick-ulous, to you.

Wife: (sigh)...Sustained eye roll and head shake as she realizes we're legally bound by the state of Missouri, and presumably all the rest

**Don't even get me started on the greatness of the Arcanum..Seriously. What a feat! And not just a feat for the sake of being a feat! A grand feat of accomplishment which has made our lives so much better. Just wanted to be on the record.

Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker · February 24, 2018

On 1/31/2018 at 2:12 PM, NotBurtReynolds said:

So this theory is the result of thoughts that coalesced while brainstorming in an excellent post started by @Firerust, and expanded on by @1stBondsmith and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine , about whether Adonalsium may have had a mandate of Unity. Some smart thoughts over there and definitely worth a look.

* "The Integral of Perfection through Unity Theory" where Adonalsium's current state is the sum of all states approaching infinity, used with permission from creator of smarter words, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine

So the quickie summary of this theory, which will likely be the perfect combination of way too long and ultimately wrong, goes like this:

This Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of Vessels of Adonalsium, mirroring real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in an endless(and possibly beginning-less) cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That the Vessel of Adonalsium uses their time holding the power to shape and guide the Cosmere, in pursuit of becoming the perfect form of whatever it is that god would consider perfect. Eventually the Vessel reaches a plateau, wherein the only way to evolve to a more perfect Adonalsium is by allowing it's power to be Shattered into the different Intents of god. Intents which change with every cycle, according to what is needed to Advance in godhood this time, but one that is always the Hate of god. Or Odium. Or whatever synonym you want. But not the passion of god, regardless of what Rayse thinks. The part of god that may be necessary, but without the context of the other aspects, is the ultimate destructive force. The Odium that must be defeated by the rest, so Adonalsium can be ultimately be reformed into a more perfect version of itself which has had those aspects honed to to even finer point of perfection, allowing all of the aspects of god to further balance each other that much more perfectly. Another infinitesimal step down the path of godly evolution, stretching back indefinitely but only looking forward as far as the next cycle and the next contest. Because each cycle is a contest where the outcome is not guaranteed. Either the other Intents of god overcome the hate and Adonalsium reforms that much more perfect and continues the cycle of evolving until a another plateau is reached and another Shattering must occur...Or Odium prevails. Which becomes a more likely outcome every time that the cycle repeats, for as Adonalsium reforms every time as a more perfect version, so must his Odium be whenever he is Shattered. In order to advance to a more perfect Adonalsium, a more perfect Odium must be defeated.

So now that we're through the 'short' summary, let's get to the why.

But it's a how that has always stuck in my brain...How did Adonalsium not see it coming?

Odium, Cultivation, Honor, Preservation, Ruin...We've seen these Shards show us taking "be prepared" to another level. While not omniscient, they have been shown to have the knowledge and foresight to carry out plans that stretch millennia while seeing the endless moves that could possibly oppose them. The ultimate chess masters...

But it the Shards and their plans are the ultimate chess masters, then what would that make Adonalsium? About 16x's more ultimate, I have to imagine Probably more so if you subscribe to the belief that the Whole of god would likely be more than the sum of their parts. And if that's the case, I have to repeat my earlier question:

How could 16 beings, no matter how crafty, trick and kill god without god knowing or at least knowing that it necessarily has to happen even if god couldn't know exactly when or how ?

But we do know that Shattered, Adonalsium was. Was he totally surprised? Saw it coming but couldn't do anything to stop it? Saw it coming but didn't want to stop it? There's lots of possibilities, some more likely than others.

So I guess the question you have to start with is, Did Adonalsium want to be Shattered? I'll start with the possibilities under the general assumption most of us make and that which we've gotten no evidence to the contrary:

Adonalsium Did Not Want To Be Shattered

If Adonalsium did not want to be Shattered, then either:

1. Adonalsium didn't see it coming and couldn't stop it. Or,

2. Adonalsium saw it coming, but couldn't stop it.

Now I think one of these 2 scenarios is what most of us think we are going to get whenever we get Dragonsteel(or whatever it called by then). The story of god not wanting to be killed but ultimately losing to our scrappy group of Shatterers, the Yolen16. Now I find scenario #1 more unlikely, given my previously stated disbelief in anyone or any group being able to sneak up on/trick god. And seriously, what kind of god would Adonalsium be if he just let someone sneak up and murder him?

So if Adonalsium didn't want to be Shattered, I think it’s likely scenario #2...He saw it coming to some extent but the Yolen 16 were able to kill him anyway. Which is totally plausible. I think when we finally see Yolen in the days of the Shattering, we are going to see a planet further along in the fusion of magic and technology then we've seen thus far in the Cosmere. Seriously, Yolen's going to be nuts, right? And given that likely high level of magical advancement, along with the involvement of one Master Hoid, I'll definitely buy the Yolen16 being able to come up with an intricate plan to trap and murder god, even if he sees them coming. Perhaps they will be able to find and exploit some blind spot in Adonalsium’s knowledge, much like we are assuming Odium's blind spot in regards to Renarin will be exploited. Maybe it’s just that Hoid and Rayse are better at coming up with and executing plans than the combined strength of a dozen Kelsier's plus Hannibal from the A-Team, and we’ll see their master stroke that will put Adonalsium in a corner from which he cannot escape Shattering. To be clear, I’d be fine with any and all of that

So those are the general scenarios if we assume that Adonalsium did not want to be Shattered. But what if he did?

Adonalsium Wanted to Be Shattered

1. Adonalsium didn't see it coming and didn't try to stop it

2. Adonalsium saw it coming, knew it needed to happen , went along with it.

3. Adonalsium wanted it to happen and manipulated the Yolen16 to do so.

4. Adonalsium wanted it to happen but would still fight his demise as hard as possible until champions are able to rise up and best him.(The Talladega Nights Corollary)

So in this theory the "why" of Adonalsium wanting to Shattered, is answered...To evolve to something better, even if it is infinitesimally small improvement. I do think it’s important to understand that the amount of improvement doesn't really matter in this system because I find it unlikely that this is a 'finish line' situation in which there is one perfect form of god and that once it is attained, the cycle will stop. I believe it to be a matter of continually striving towards a goal which is unreachable. A finish line you can forever move ever closer to but can never actually cross, just as you can never actually achieve perfection, but you can strive for it. The value lies in the struggle for, not the achievement of.

But back to the why...Why would Shattering the power of god, make god better?

So Adonalsium could've been Shattered differently...Which means there's different possible Intents...Which means there's probably a whole lot of different possible Intents...I mean come on, its god. Lots of layers there So what if the only way to improve on the whole of god is by improving the pieces, which in turn can only be improved by being separated into their current, purest form? A singe Intent of god, free to act in accordance of their purest Intent, without the context of the whole holding them back. Which may lead to a better or wiser Shard of god. Or not. I think it's important to remember that Intents(with the exception of Odium, which I believe to be necessarily "bad" but also a necessary part of a "perfect" god) are not necessarily "good" or "bad". They are their Intent. Just because an Intent sounds good, like Honor or Preservation, doesn't mean it necessarily has to be so. Or if it even can be, as it becomes more of a pure force over time. That’s the implication we seem to get over and over...Taken to their outer extremities, without the context of other Intents, ALL of the Shards would ultimately force an existence which most would not find palatable to exist in, or even could exist in. Does anyone want to want to live on the Scadrial that Ruin describes, in which Preservation is the ultimate power? Or the Roshar where Honor has been taken to its maximal limits? Or Cultivation's?

That is the theme that runs through all we've learned about Shards and their nature. That without being part of the whole, All of the Shards are ultimately bad for the Cosmere. Vessels hold powers that will eventually consume them into a pure force. I say that NO Shard would ever be able to "keep to themselves" in the Cosmere. Eventually their Intent would consume them forcing them to spread. Imagine the same Cosmere, same events, just without Odium. Could Devotion and Dominion continue to coexist on Sel forever? Or would their Intents eventually push them until one or both was destroyed? Say it's Devotion who "wins", splintering Dominion and ruling the whole planet guided by the extreme tenets of all things devotion. Eventually turning Sel into an absolute miserable place to live. Shard Objective completed. Sel, check. Do we think Devotion will just stay there? Or will the force of the Intent not allow it? I do not believe that Intents ever allow for "that's enough". I believe on a long enough timeline, all Shards of all Intents will eventually try to consume the Cosmere with their Intent, regardless of the other Shards in their way

Now all of that was a long way of saying that the 'correct' state of the Cosmere is with an intact Adonalsium. That no matter how Shattered, as long as god is in pieces, the Cosmere is moving towards destruction, while at the same time moving towards the higher state of perfection which would be gained by a reformed Adonalsium. So, back to this...

#1: I generally find this unlikely..Almost. Not to beat a dead chull, but I find most scenarios where Adonalsium is caught completely unaware, unlikely. But, not exactly. Adonalsium can need to evolve without knowing it. And even though it's god we're talking about, that doesn't mean god has to realize that his current state is not the ultimate state.

This scenario would really be saying that Adonalsium wanted to be Shattered, didn't see it coming, but then didn't try to stop them because he was like, "Jeez, finally... Took y'all long enough."

#2: Getting more likely, I think...Here we have Adonalsium knowing, as part of his divine knowledge, that he must be Shattered. So he goes along, doing his god thing, waiting for the time when his creations are able to kill him. Sees the Yolen16 and their plots coming from a 1000 years away and goes along with their machinations, ending in his Shattering. But if he wants to be Shattered, why would it be a waiting game? Why not skip to Scenario #3 where you just orchestrate your own death in pursuit of evolution, instead of waiting around for someone else to figure it out? Well, perhaps that is part of the trigger, as it were. If we start from the place where any fully-formed Adonalsium must eventually Shatter in order to evolve, then there must be a trigger...Something that starts the chain and says "Shatter-Time!". So we have Adonalsium...and he knows eventually he will need to be Shattered. I think it may be a little intellectually lazy to say that not only does god know he needs to die to evolve, but he also knows when he has stopped evolving and has arrived at the point of needing to be Shattered.

#3: We've seen this before, yeah? Ruin spent hundreds and thousands of years manipulating the people of Scadrial into freeing the villain, whilst thinking themselves the heroes. I think Adonalsium would be capable of the same, manipulating the people of Yolen into believing that the only way to save the universe was to kill their god.

When I first started mind-sketching this stuff out, this was the scenario I used as a starting point. Mostly because I was just trying to shoehorn myself to a place where Dragonsteel: Secret History is eventually a thing ;). And because it makes sense in a linear way. If Adonalsium needs to be Shattered, I suspect it would need to done by others who did not know that they were doing what god wanted, with the idea of this being mirrored in real world religious stories.

Jesus was killed by people who thought they were doing the right thing and had no issue with the deed. Would it have been different had they known Jesus needed to die? If they knew, for a fact, that they were not killing a man but their god? I’m sure the Rayse of the Pharisee’s might still have been cool with it, but would the Leras?

And even if the would-be Shatterers would still have been fine with killing a willing god, them even having that knowledge might change everything, as perhaps the group’s intent to kill a god was what was necessary.

But back to my current point ;)…If Adonalsium needs to be Shattered by the unaware, who also have the desire and means to actually kill god, it would make sense for him to activate the all-time long con in order to orchestrate his own death while all of the players remain blissfully unaware of their parts in the play, making Ruin’s manipulation of Scadralian history look like the games that infants play.

But while this scenario does make sense to me, it lacks choice and agency. So we have a near omniscient god who is so self-aware that he not only knows the time at which his evolution has stopped, but what must occur for the evolution to continue. And then guides people of his godly choosing to Shatter him in the way he knows he has to be in order to ultimately advance to the next, purer state of god. Ol’ Adonalsium has it all figured out and that’s just a little boring I think. Sure there is still massive uncertainty in this system post-Shattering, because as long as the reformation of Adonalsium is not guaranteed there is the possibility of the Cosmere being completely consumed by the hate of god. But still.

But, to be fair, perhaps the reformation of Adonalsium is guaranteed. A system where a truly omniscient god knows and plots his own evolutionary course. He guides his creations to Shatter his power, knowing it must eventually reform into something more pure and perfect which he knows someone else will take up. A fatalistic system where all paths eventually lead to a new Adonalsium… Which in turn always leads to a Shattering…then to a new Adonalsium…And so on, to infinity. Backwards and forwards. A mirroring of real world proponents of our universe being in an endless series of “Big Bangs” and “Big Crunches”. The universe ‘bangs’ open, expands, expands, expands, eventually reaching a point where the process is somehow reversed. And then the universe ‘crunches’ in, contracting, contracting, contracting, until the “Bang” must happen again…and so on. But as opposed to the real universe in which the same stuff just gets thrown in new directions, each Cosmere cycle ends with a new and better god. Fatalistic, but still cool.

I think all of the above scenarios are certainly plausible and each could make sense in their own ways, from both philosophical and narrative perspectives. But what would make the most sense from the perspective of one Brandon Sanderson? Well I won’t know that for a few decades, but I can at least guess(wrong;). And I guess a system where no outcome is guaranteed.

My vote is for something like Scenario #4, or the The Talladega Nights Corollary. Jean Girad desperately wanted Ricky Bobby to win, freeing him to train dogs with Gregory full-time. But as much as he wanted to lose, if he gave even one inch to Ricky, he’d be invalidating everything he was that got him that point, thereby invalidating his desire to retire in the first place... In order to train dogs with Gregory full-time.

I imagine a Cosmere where the endless cycle of Shatterings and Reformations in pursuit of the ultimate ideal of perfection, can only be achieved by taking the most difficult path.

So let’s imagine I’m right about infinite Adonalsiums and let’s put me in the shoes of the Vessel of Adonalsium that was most recently Shattered, the Dalinar of their time, as it were…Call me, Bizzaro-nar. Say Bizzaro-nar was the person who defeated the latest incarnation of Odium, ending in the reformation of Adonalsium, which he took up and Ascended. Now I believe this will be a clear the board-type situation, where the new Adonalsium remakes the Cosmere anew, beginning the cycle anew. Which is bittersweet for all of our heroes, if true. You may have defeated Odium, continuing the Cosmere and Adonalsium down their path to perfection, but you still get wiped out. Its seems fatalistic and totally unfair, but I think it’s the way it would have to go. Every last thing in the Cosmere will have been created by the previous, less-perfect Adonalsium. How can those creations have a place in the new Cosmere of the new, more-perfect Adonalsium? They are inferior by definition, having not been made by the current Adonalsium. Shallan, Kaladin, all the other characters we know and love, would be an inferior part of a new pursuit of perfection…

So Adonalsium starts from scratch…He shoots around, doing god stuff. Trying to attain a perfect Cosmere…Whatever that is. So now we get to the trigger. Why Shatter? When?

I believe the Vessel of Adonalsium shapes and guides their Cosmere as they strive for their perfect form, eventually reaching the evolutionary brick wall which necessitates their Shattering. The Critical Fail, as it were. But what is this failure? I believe it’s the same failure every time. You have failed most spectacularly as a god whenever your creations try and succeed in killing you. Whenever beings you have created are able to rationalize, plot, and carry out the murder of the Supreme Being in their universe, you have failed in the most ultimate way and can go on no further down the path. The Shattering was not only the method of killing god, it was the proof for it needing to be done.

So it’s not really a trigger, I suppose. It’s just another inevitability in the cycle. If Adonalsium can never truly be perfect but can only keep striving towards it, then the same must be said for the Cosmere. And I say an imperfect Cosmere will always lead to some of god’s creations believing they must kill god in order to save their universe. The paragon of hubris.

So back to Bizzaro-nar. He’s flitting around and through his near-infinite wisdom sees the Yolen16 coming. And he’s all like, “You’ve got to be kidding me! All I’ve done for these people, all I’ve done for the whole freaking Cosmere, and they’re plotting to kill me??” Which leads Bizzaro-nar to a breakthrough as he uses his super-deific-understanding powers to realize what a total failure this makes him and that Shattering is the only way forward. But even knowing it needed to happen I still think he’d fight any attempt tooth and nail because I think Cosmere natural selection should hold that Adonalsium would not reach a point where he had to Shatter until he was able to be Shattered. Or to rephrase, if you can stop from being Shattered, you haven’t reached a point where you need to be Shattered.

Or, perhaps Ascending to Adonalsium still doesn't mean that you get the whole picture of the cycle of Cosmere's and your place in it. Maybe Adonalsium always fights the Shattering because he doesn't know his part in the play either and just doesn't want to die. And if you don't know you need to die, you probably will fight it with all your godly might. Which ties back into the circle. In order to evolve to a better Adonalsium, your best must be able to be beaten. And if your best cannot be beaten then it's not time yet.

So Bizarro-nar loses to the Yolen 16 and the power of Adonalsium is Shattered into the 16 Intents. But why those Intents? Wob’s have said they could’ve been different Intents, so why those? Well, I’ve already covered 1 as I think Odium has to necessarily be part of the party. Now I’ve seen some people theorize that Adonalsium was Shattered into those Intents because it had something to do with mirroring what was in each of the 16 Shatterers, but I think that it’s backwards. That Adonalsium was Shattered into the Intents not in accordance with the motivations of the 16, but rather because it was the failures most in those Intents that led the Yolen16 on their path. Those are the Intents that got us into this mess, those are the one’s that’ll get us out . The Yolen16 may have thought they were directing things, perhaps even thinking they had a hand in how the Intents shook out. But little did they know that any successful Shattering would only succeed in the exact way that it did.

So there you have it....Way too long and and almost certainly wrong!...Just as promised Now to just sit back and wait for Rshara to post a WoB completely invalidating every thing I've said. I imagine it'll be something like this:

Reveal hidden contents

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Play/PauseQuestioner

Some readers have theorized that this Adonalsium is but the latest in a series of infinite Adonalsiums, in which the Cosmere is in an endless cycle of Shatterings and Reformations in order achieve a higher state of perfection.

Brandon Sanderson

That is so wrong that I hesitate in even dignifying it with an answer, so I will just say that anyone who thinks that should probably stop reading my books full-stop as they are obviously too dumb to pick up even the simplest of my concepts.

Sorry, but I found this on Arcanum

Cognizantastic
Was Adonalsium Shattered by an external force?

Brandon Sanderson
Adonalsium was not Shattered by himself, herself, or itself.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/143/#e2651

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 24, 2018

Interesting WoB, but I would say that this is only really eliminating the possibility of an Adonalsium self destruct sequence. It does make it far less likely that his death was a direct result of his long term plan and directly orchestrated plan, but doesn't eliminate the possibility that his death is a part of long time scale inherently necessary phenomena.

NotBurtReynolds · February 24, 2018

Yeah, I've seen that WoB before but I don't really see as being an eliminator for what I was talking about. I'll 2nd what @hoiditthroughthegrapevine was saying about it perhaps lessening the likelyhood of the Shattering being of Adonalsium's own design, but I stress perhaps because I don't think that the WoB is necessarily saying what you want it to say, as that's a pretty cagey wording he used. Cagey because, taken at it's most literal it really only seems to confirm that Adonalsium did not commit the actual act that actually Shattered himself/herself/itself..ie..it wasn't suicide. There's miles of wiggle room in there...Just imagine swapping in Ruin for Adonalsium and Ruin's release from prison with the Shattering in a horrible parallel universe where Hero of Ages still hasn't come out yet:

Questioner: Was Ruin released from prison by external forces?

FakeBrandonSanderson: Ruin was not released by himself, herself, or itself.

That WoB is technically true, right? But is it truly, true?

Edited February 24, 2018 by NotBurtReynolds
turns out for no reason at all ;)

Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker · February 24, 2018

1 hour ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Yeah, I've seen that WoB before but I don't really see as being an eliminator for what I was talking about. I'll 2nd what @hoiditthroughthegrapevine was saying about it perhaps lessening the likelyhood of the Shattering being of Adonalsium's own design, but I stress perhaps because I don't think that the WoB is necessarily saying what you want it to say, as that's a pretty cagey wording he used. Cagey because, taken at it's most literal it really only seems to confirm that Adonalsium did not commit the actual act that actually Shattered himself/herself/itself..ie..it wasn't suicide. There's miles of wiggle room in there...Just imagine swapping in Ruin for Adonalsium and Ruin's release from prison with the Shattering in a horrible parallel universe where Hero of Ages still hasn't come out yet:

Questioner: Was Ruin released from prison by external forces?

FakeBrandonSanderson: Ruin was not released by himself, herself, or itself.

That WoB is technically true, right? But is it truly, true?

I actually really enjoy your theory. I’m not trying to poke holes in it just for the sake of poking holes.

RShara · February 24, 2018

On 1/31/2018 at 6:11 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Ok, pedantic point taken (such a stickler @RShara), my post has been updated:

Sorry. I'm a pedant to the bone. It's my nature, like the scorpion. Yes, I just compared myself to a stinging, multilegged arthropod. Yay me...

I meant to reply to this thread a while back, and forgot about it. I don't actually have any proof for or against your theory and it has interesting components. The Iri belief is a strong indicator that there is something More Going On. I'll just restate what I said in the first place--it seems uncomfortably close to the Wheel of Time, which I think Brandon wants to stay as far away from as possible.

I know that your idea has only a very very passing similarity to WoT, but even a hint of it and you know that there will be screams of "Imitation! Couldn't he come up with his own idea!" type things. Because people are weird.

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 24, 2018

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

Sorry. I'm a pedant to the bone.

It was a pedantic but important point, as most good points are. Like I've said other places I really value your contribution to the forum and I was glad to edit my post to make it clearer and better.

Any theory that lasts through the scrutiny of you, Calderis, and the One Who Connects is battle proved. It's the theory that didn't break, and is worth more than 10 broken theories because of it (to borrow Kaladin's analogy somewhat, hopefully not in a derivative way).

RShara · February 24, 2018

Oh now you're inspiring me to break your theory. (Kidding)

+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine · February 25, 2018

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Oh now you're inspiring me to break your theory. (Kidding)

Bring it...(Kidding)

NotBurtReynolds · February 25, 2018

11 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Bring it...(Kidding)

This statement is in no way endorsed by NotBurtReynolds

Edited February 25, 2018 by NotBurtReynolds

[OB] The Integral of Perfection Through Unity Theory

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