Sallin Zeras Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 So, I was thinking about the Unmade, more specifically their names, how ones have one, two, or no hyphens. I think that the names of each Unmade are related to their sentience. I mean, the three mindless forces, Nergaoul, Moelach, and Ashertmarn, have no hyphens, and the others (excluding Ba-Ado-Mishram) have one hyphen, and, judging by what we have seen of them, they at least know what they are doing, and, according to Hessi’s Mythica, Ba-Ado-Mishram was really smart, sometimes even acting as Odium’s general during some Desolations. So yeah, if you guys can support or debunk this theory, I’d be glad to hear it, as I’m not completely sure about it, it’s just something that crossed my mind when rereading OB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 This is definitely something that has been noticed. Here's an old thread that discussed it: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) I've seen some other theories that the hyphens symbolize different things, depending on what argument the creator wants to advance. I don't think we've got any conclusive evidence one way or the other, so Occam's Shardrazor would suggest that there isn't any deep significance to the presence or absence of hyphens. But that's only a tool for assessing probability and we can't actually rule out the 'hyphens are important' idea. In terms of hyphens versus sentience, while Hessi and apparently the sources she consulted declare Ashtermarn to be mindless, it's worth bearing in mind that what we see of this Unmade seems to suggest it's actually somewhat intelligent. OB spoiler Spoiler When it speaks in Shallan's mind, rather than just giving an undirected litany it addresses her personally and by her real name, while claiming to not be an enemy of hers. That implies a much higher degree of awareness than anything we see from Nergaoul or anything implied of Moelach. The way that Ashtermarn retreated to allow the team access to the Oathgate (drawing them into a trap) also suggests it's smarter than Hessi thinks. So it's possible the in-universe scholarship is simply incorrect in this instance. We also don't know enough about Chemoarish to say whether she fits or does not fit any apparent pattern among Unmade names. Though in terms of your specific argument, her name lacks hyphens but she isn't counted among the 'three great mindless Unmade', for whatever that's worth. Edited January 31, 2018 by Weltall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theuntaintedchild Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 1/30/2018 at 9:38 PM, Weltall said: Occam's Shardrazor I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeptheory Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) On 1/30/2018 at 10:38 PM, Weltall said: I've seen some other theories that the hyphens symbolize different things, depending on what argument the creator wants to advance. I don't think we've got any conclusive evidence one way or the other, so Occam's Shardrazor would suggest that there isn't any deep significance to the presence or absence of hyphens. But that's only a tool for assessing probability and we can't actually rule out the 'hyphens are important' idea. In terms of hyphens versus sentience, while Hessi and apparently the sources she consulted declare Ashtermarn to be mindless, it's worth bearing in mind that what we see of this Unmade seems to suggest it's actually somewhat intelligent. OB spoiler Hide contents When it speaks in Shallan's mind, rather than just giving an undirected litany it addresses her personally and by her real name, while claiming to not be an enemy of hers. That implies a much higher degree of awareness than anything we see from Nergaoul or anything implied of Moelach. The way that Ashtermarn retreated to allow the team access to the Oathgate (drawing them into a trap) also suggests it's smarter than Hessi thinks. So it's possible the in-universe scholarship is simply incorrect in this instance. We also don't know enough about Chemoarish to say whether she fits or does not fit any apparent pattern among Unmade names. Though in terms of your specific argument, her name lacks hyphens but she isn't counted among the 'three great mindless Unmade', for whatever that's worth. Wasn't Ba-Ado-Mishram there too? I recall her speaking with Shallan at one point, or was that Ashtermarn... I thought it was Ba-Ado and she was explaining the trap and how she corrupted to the oathgate spren? It's possible that Ba-Ado was 'ordering' the other unmade as part of her duties as the 'general'. Now I gotta research. Apparently it was Sja-Anat as she is the one who corrupts spren. But same idea, she has a hyphen, and thus possibly more sentient or powerful and managing the actions of Ashertmarn, or Odium himself had a hand? Not so strong on this whole idea though. I liked another theory that the unmade represent the times that a Herald broke during an oathpact, or are actually Odiums ("version") of heralds. Spoiler On 1/11/2018 at 6:15 PM, Bort said: I've had a thought for a while now that the Heralds are in some way connected to the Unmade, but now I've thought it out a bit more, I think I've put it together. Ten Heralds formed the Oathpact, where the Voidbringers could only return once one of them cracked and broke their oath. We have Word of Stormfather that nine of them broke. I think that, when Odium broke each of the Heralds, he took something from them, he 'unmade' them, and that made it easier to break them in the future. The essence he took, Investiture, Identity, whatever you want to call it (I'm not really sure what the actual term would be), or maybe, their pain, Odium used to create the Unmade. Further, I think that the part that was removed is connected to the Unmade's profile. This is why they seem to reflect an aspect of sentience, rather than the whole thing. My reasoning for this is Dalinar. When he feels the Thrill, he is a completely different being. When the Thrill isn't there and he can't fight, he turned into a wreck. Just like the Herald the Thrill was originally taken from - Jezrien. I think this is hinted at in the flashback where they are drinking together. Not in so many words, but in the similarities between them. Another one is Nale. He is practically a block of ice, seemingly cut off from any of his emotions, or some of them at least. I think this corresponds with the Unmade, Ashertmarn. I also think this is hinted at by Lift hugging him. I don't think we know enough about the other Heralds or Unmade to make connections, other than perhaps Ash and Re-Shepir. That is a thought based more on how similar Re-Shepir and Shallan were when they interacted. What would you guys say? Has Ash lost her'curiosity', for want of a better word? So, what do you guys think of my idea? Go ahead and poke holes Edit: I just found a WoB that could suggest I'm on the right track here. Edited February 2, 2018 by deeptheory 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 3, 2018 Report Share Posted February 3, 2018 What's weird is that twice in WoK, Yelignar is referred to without the hyphen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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