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20180129_EpochWin_Ch03 (L)


Chuck Hossenlopp

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So. Many. Caveats.
 
For those just tuning in:

Four friends found the remains of a Dwarf, Elf, Giant, and a shining knight in an archeological dig that dates back to the Ice Age.

 
Your input on this chapter will help me greatly because I am now recafoobling an outline for a total rewrite of these three opening chapters.
 
Here are the things that are already changing:
 
S will be the only one on site in Germany. He's no longer a big deal archeologist, he's just allowed to help. The other three guys will follow the discoveries from home in California
 
The both the American and German professors will be female
 
Spoiler

The justification for taking the stuff at the end of this chapter will be dumped. The new justification for taking the magic stuff will be... S impulsively uses magic to straight up steal the stuff. He will then lie to his friends about it.

 

 
So...
 
With all that in mind, tell me what is worth keeping, and what aspects of the dig are horribly inaccurate.
 
Any suggestions for improvement are greatly welcomed
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I am confess. The whole "a broken clock is right twice a day" never made sense. It probably has to do with simple but clever math and applied logic. I hate that. Why u do this?

That aside, hilarious part with the grave marker stuff. But I would be very cautious of my sense of humor if I were you. People don't usually do my sense of humor. It does them, you dig? Oh, right, you're against diggers. Seriously, whayoug' wrong with moles? Huh? You dissen duh moles? Don't. You. Dare. They will com'n dig a pit an sink yo' house, now.

Stop, wait. Back. Up. They found something at the dig. Isn't that usually, like, the high-mark of a dig? Most of the time all that turns up is someone's ancient chamber pot potsherd, a bone fragment that actually belongs to a pig, or some other artifact everybody claims to care about but end up filing away into some dusty storage compartment next to the top secret Nephilim bones for the government in a failing Smithsonian that has to make its end's meet by serving as a archeological storage facility.

So, you know, instead of insulting what they've discovered, they should be excited. The only reason they wouldn't be amazed and pleased is if this is satire, or I didn't just didn't read the first chapter to get a clue about the scene. Wait, I didn't read last chapter, but excuse that. Because really? They find modern boxes and they're not surprised? I... I just don't get it. Drop it. Change it. Remove. Excise. Have the characters express genuine excitement and interest rather than constantly play the part of the three fools in chilling in their dorm.

They don't come across to me like children on Christmas morning. With wisecracks like that, they'd probably get nothing but coal if they lived in my house.

Accept Lucy, too, was false. But they refuse to accept that. Can't be bothered by scientific theory to this day. Locked in the Ivory Tower still, I see. But soon, yes, soon you fools shall awaken the Gnomes, and their armies can once again remake their garden, and use us as distasteful lawn ornaments.

Would... they not open these supposedly ancient artifacts in a sealed and controlled environment to avoid rapid deterioration of the inside contents once exposed to destructive micro-organisms and sudden ambient temperature change? To say nothing of rust or the possibility of the contents falling out.

But these guys are young, so I guess they can be justified to loot a digging site. I just hope whoever allowed them into the dig learns what they're doing.

A very convenient method of avoiding having to follow procedure is for the book case to just open on its own in an ominous but convenient fashion.

Ah, volcanic eruptions and their immediate aftermath. How you upset carbon dating so...

Because nothing says you care like waking up your victims so they can hear you say "I am going to kill you now."

I wants de book too. Gimme de book.

*Shard invasion*

I DEMAND THAT YOU SUBMIT TO ME THE TOTAL UNEDITED CONTENTS OF GOOD STEWARDS OF BEING BADASS HUNTERS. I AM CURIOUS.

*Shard departation. Please proceed as you were*

Darn it. I scared the professor away. But fourth wall meandering aside, I guess he was aware of what the worthless fools would find? Ouchies. That part of the narrative would make a degree of sense... seeing as they are disposable.

You should probably realize they would need to catalogue, photograph, measure and whatnot BEFORE touching it. And are they wearing gloves? Or those extendable mechanical arms? Exactly what kind of lab do these guys have with them that they think its reasonable to carelessly manipulate 30,000 year old archaics? Of course, they think the stuff is fake, so why are they going with the charade at all? Ok, that make sense, no throwing out the whole slow, meticulous process just because they're skeptical.

Yes. *Insert Curiosity's suggestive groaning* Nnnnnn.... Curiousness.

Ah, that talk about electromagnetic forces is bringing the Hutchinson Effect to mind. Beware. that kinda thing gets you disappeared.

Rewriting the code is bad. Bad things happen when you do that.

Otherwise, it was an enjoyable enough read. I don't like or enjoy modern fantasy or archeology, though. So my thoughts ended up being more style than substance.

P.S It appears S is possessed. Of something.

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Just a note: the submission limit is usually 5000 words, unless you get approval in the submission thread. Especially in a week with 5 submitters, this is a bit long.

I think the idea of this story, where four friends get power from these books, is fine. Tying them in with the mystery of where the skeletons came from is also fine. But the whole dig site part of it just isn't working for me. There's too much that has to go wrong--even someone not versed in scientific will notice that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Maybe one of the books gets out on the black market? Maybe S has an uncle/aunt/cousin/grandparent that runs the dig and slips them inside one day? There's a number of other ways to get to the point of the four reading the books, which is the interesting part. Now that's happened, I want to read more of this story, but I want to forget everything that happened at the dig site.

Second, I need a lot more description of the four, and a way to distinguish them. Right now I can't picture any of them, and changing POV so much means I forget which one I'm in. There's not anything I can tell that differentiates how S thinks from J, or the others.


Notes while reading:
pg 1: The metal detector joke is a weak opening for the chapter.

pg 1: "cap on me"
--haven't heard this phrase before.

pg 3: “C’mon people, let’s crack ‘em open!”
--I have a feeling the actual scientist running this dig is having a stroke right now.

pg 5: "explained for the benefit of our future viewers."
--or for the readers? Who's going to be watching this video?

pg 6: "This cloth looks like it was laid in there yesterday"
--they're opening the case in the middle of the dirt and everything? It'll get contaminated by all sorts of stuff.

pg 8: "I’m going to have to bend it all the way open in order to photograph the pages"
--every proper scientist dies from shock.

pg 9: "Professor Weisman had gotten out of bed."
--wait, I thought they were outside? Have they been in the trailer? There's not much description, so maybe I missed something. Also, How is professor sleeping through this, and not screaming at them all to stop?

pg 11: Ah...this is in J's POV. I had completely forgotten about that. Isn't he the creationist?
pg 12: Yep. Definitely need some more to separate these characters.

pg 16: It seems a missed opportunity that we don't see H reading the book and getting this knowledge.

pg 27: The story is enjoyable one the crew starts reading the magic books and getting powers. There's still not a lot of description of setting or character, so I have a hard time connecting with the four, but it's got potential. Especially with the changes in POV, I can't keep track of who's who. All the POVs read exactly the same.
Is there a way to bypass all the problems with the archeological site and just get to this stage?

pg 29: I missed S going outside again and had to read through a second time. There really needs to be more description of the transitions.

pg 32: "I bought the sculpture"
--the store is open at this time of night?

pg 34: "he’s just as likely to burn them"
--arrrgh. Yes, just take out all the archaeological dig parts. It will be easier.

pg 35-37: This last section is strange. Part of it is in present tense, and it almost reads like a wrap up of the story.
 

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5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

submission limit is usually 5000 words

Guilty. I'll be more mindful of that from here on out

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

There's a number of other ways to get to the point of the four reading the books, which is the interesting part.

I spoiler tagged this above, if you're the type that's inclined to shake boxes to figure out what's in them

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

changing POV so much means I forget which one I'm in.

I want to believe that this problem improves in Chapter 4 when all for of them split up and do separate stuff.

 

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

"cap on me"

Maybe this is a California thing. I just means "insult" either playfully or cruelly.

6 hours ago, Mandamon said:

bypass all the problems with the archeological site

The dig site is a train wreak. I'm using all of this commentary to slim down everything that happens before the opening of the books

6 hours ago, Mandamon said:

"he’s just as likely to burn them"
--arrrgh. Yes, just take out all the archaeological dig parts. It will be easier.

It's really hard keeping the creationist in the story without coming off as insulting to that worldview, but I'm trying

 

With all that said, what would you say are my load bearing pillars here? What needs to stay in the revision?

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14 hours ago, Chuck Hossenlopp said:

I spoiler tagged this above, if you're the type that's inclined to shake boxes to figure out what's in them

I read the tag, but wasn't sure if that was referring to just getting the books, or the whole dig site in general. I'd vote for the latter

 

14 hours ago, Chuck Hossenlopp said:

With all that said, what would you say are my load bearing pillars here? What needs to stay in the revision?

For me, the basic, fun part of this story is four teens/college students find books that show them how to become D&D classes. At this point, I'm not sure what the giant/elf.dwarf/pre-neolithic angle adds, but it's an interesting part of the worldbuilding. I'm guessing anything from time travel, to hidden history of other species, to magically created materials, to ancient high tech society. Any/all would be fun to read about. Past that, everything is up for grabs.

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48 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

For me, the basic, fun part of this story is four teens/college students find books that show them how to become D&D classes. At this point, I'm not sure what the giant/elf.dwarf/pre-neolithic angle adds, but it's an interesting part of the worldbuilding. I'm guessing anything from time travel, to hidden history of other species, to magically created materials, to ancient high tech society. Any/all would be fun to read about. Past that, everything is up for grabs.

You will like the rest of the book

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So, as I'm sure you well know by now, 7500 words is a lot to spring on people expecting a 5000 word piece. The usual etiquette is to either split the piece into smaller sections and submit over a couple weeks, or wait until there's a slow week in submissions and make sure everyone knows this one will be longer. 

I did end up skimming through a good portion of this, both because of the unexpected length and because this chapter 3 has the same issues that the previous two chapters had. I feel like those issues have been well covered and addressed in the previous feedback threads. 

The only thing additionally that stuck out here is the German.  It's been a looong time since I've taken any German, but some of the phrases being used here sound slightly off to me.  like.. "Zu viel passiert gerade jetzt" (too much happening right now) which is correct, but kinda really English-like?  And my brain is telling me it'd be easier-in-German to say something like "gibt's zu viel jetz passieren" (give it too much now happening, or "there's too much going on right now" when you un-german the word order), but "zu viel" doesn't sound quite right either, and I can't cudgel my long-forgotten language skills enough to remember what the idiomatic equivalent for "too much" is anymore. I think? I always really liked German word order, but unfortunately I don't have too much real-world experience with it. I could ping a couple friends for a second opinion if you wanted. What I do remember though is that spoken german almost never uses a direct actiony verb when a passive helper verb and the infinitive tacked onto the end will work instead.    

At this point, and given what you've said about the rest of the novel, I'm wondering why the story can't just start with the artifacts already in the States? Just author fiat that the dig happened, the stuff was found, cataloged, and carted back for in-depth study, and Sam is sneaking his buddies in to the basement-offsite-storage-holding-facility-lab-whatever thingy to show off all the cool stuff he "found" while "helping" his prof at the dig.  Being these guys, I'm sure stuff would get out of hand quickly, even in the relative safety of a uni storage warehouse-or-whatever. ;)

If this is where it starts to get good, this is where the book should begin.  If something of the dig is needed, then, as normally against prologues as I am, a (very) short prologue with S at the dig wouldn't be horrible.  

You've been a real champ taking these hard crits from everyone and I look forward to reading this again once you've got it sorted out! 

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44 minutes ago, industrialistDragon said:

The only thing additionally that stuck out here is the German

Guilty. One hundred percent Google translate.

48 minutes ago, industrialistDragon said:

If this is where it starts to get good, this is where the book should begin.

Agreed. I'm thinking that it starts with Sam interrupting the guys gaming, (no more fake out opener) followed with a quickie scene of S doing some blatant shenanigans under cover of night. The magical loot will be transported home via magic where guys will read them. They figure out that Sam stole them, character conflict ensues. That should give all the exposition needed to make a mess of San Francisco with magic

56 minutes ago, industrialistDragon said:

You've been a real champ taking these hard crits from everyone

Please! Keep it coming! You guys are giving the tough love this story needs! I do actually want to see this put out the the wide world of readers someday. Thank you all!

@industrialistDragon What do you feel are the best aspects worth keeping as I revise these first three chapters into one?

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2 hours ago, Chuck Hossenlopp said:

One hundred percent Google translate.

Oh, whew! I posted that, then immediately worried that you'd asked your native German sister-in-law or something and I was just hallucinating idiomatic grammar formations based on uni classes I took a million billion years ago. ^^;; I did ask my friend who has more recent German experience than me, and she came up with "Da gibt es zu viel los!" but she has ALSO put in a text to an actual German SHE knows, so if you do want to keep the line, we might eventually get around to something that doesn't sound like it was thought up by a bunch of Americans. ;) 

3 hours ago, Chuck Hossenlopp said:

What do you feel are the best aspects worth keeping as I revise these first three chapters into one?

Once there's a more solid way to differentiate between the characters, the way they rag on each other feels really natural. Description-wise, the initial description of the skeletons was done well, in that I had a clear idea of what they were looking at, and what was being implied, without any of the key words (giant, ranger, paladin, etc) being used. Plot wise, and paring it down, it feels like the story of an earnest kid and his friends finding a bunch of magic how-to books. Since I haven't seen any reference to prophesies or chosen ones, then I think the vaguely illicit nature of the way they acquire the power is worth keeping. It's such a quintessential "shortsighted late teen/college kid" thing to do -- anybody younger or older would likely have gone to an authority figure instead of going "Hmm! this is probably illegal and possibly could kill us, but also looks really cool. let's all read it!" Unfortunately, to me, most everything else could potentially be on the chopping block. 

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ETA: Just read the hidden comments (how did I miss them?)! Noting the changes that are coming I think that takes care of most of my concerns below. Using magic to steal the thing is neat! I'm on board!

Aaaaand we're back!

Overall

Long. Long and seemingly without much of a point, aside from grave robbing and a lot of handwavium. I don't buy the magic knowledge at all, and I still don't have a good grip on these characters, or why their prof is so useless. Like, he deserves students like this if he is going to sleep in the lab.

On 1/29/2018 at 2:42 PM, Curiosity's Splinter said:

They don't come across to me like children on Christmas morning.

This also bothered me. I expect a lot more awe and excitement

On 1/29/2018 at 2:42 PM, Curiosity's Splinter said:

Accept Lucy, too, was false.

Err...Lucy is very much legit.

On 1/29/2018 at 2:42 PM, Curiosity's Splinter said:

Would... they not open these supposedly ancient artifacts in a sealed and controlled environment to avoid rapid deterioration of the inside contents once exposed to destructive micro-organisms and sudden ambient temperature change? To say nothing of rust or the possibility of the contents falling out.

YES!

On 1/30/2018 at 10:55 AM, Mandamon said:

Second, I need a lot more description of the four, and a way to distinguish them. Right now I can't picture any of them, and changing POV so much means I forget which one I'm in. There's not anything I can tell that differentiates how S thinks from J, or the others.

I also have this issue.

On 1/30/2018 at 10:55 AM, Mandamon said:

I have a feeling the actual scientist running this dig is having a stroke right now.

They aren't the only one.

On 1/30/2018 at 10:55 AM, Mandamon said:

Also, How is professor sleeping through this, and not screaming at them all to stop?

There's a point at which we just shake our heads, try not to scream, and go get drunk. I think the professor in this piece is at that point.

On 1/31/2018 at 11:56 AM, industrialistDragon said:

At this point, and given what you've said about the rest of the novel, I'm wondering why the story can't just start with the artifacts already in the States?

I think this would work really well!

 

I really appreciate how open you have been to these critiques. Looking forward to reading the edited version someday!

 

 

As I go

- 37 pages? Holy wah! I haven't read other poster's comments yet but I assume someone mentioned the 5K (or there about) word limit?

- page two: I realize we've covered this but... exposing bodies with flesh on them to open air... they're decaying right before our eyes and why is there no oversight on these kids? I can't leave a freshman alone with a machete for five minutes without having to fill out an OSHA report. I filled out four OSHA reports this week alone for juniors and seniors who managed to cut themselves in lab. That none of of your characters are bleeding yet makes this book high fantasy.

- they should be photographing as they go, not after they get everything dug

- how did they get the plates and boxes out without moving the bodies? Blocking fail? cause moving mostly- decayed corpses gives you a pile of bones and goo and not much else

- page four: they're grave robbing and destroying some culture's ancient art. This is why we don't let students be unsupervised in the field. This part is actually pretty plausible

- what is this box made of again? Clay? Metal? Wood wouldn't have lasted this long unless it's Magical Wood.

- page six: why are they bothering to put PPE on now? They've already done a ton of damage. Also, wouldn't they be wearing nitrile gloves? Why cotton?

- It's a cloth book? No way it's still intact, especially not enough to be picked up and carried around

- page seven: how do they know how old the book is? How is the paper still intact? I don't buy any of this

- so is it leather or is it cloth?

- page nine: the prof sleeps in the mobile lab? That seriously violates OSHA

- page 11: that German isn't correct. Also wouldn't it be easier to just say he was overwhelmed? Although really he has no reason to be overwhelmed, since he is apparently sleeping and having his students do all the work to the complete detriment of the artifacts

- page 12: isn't it 'jagwagon'?

- not a fan of the telling. You already showed through dialogue, so no need to be redundant

- page 16: I find the pencil thing to be impossible. I cannot suspend disbelief enough for this with the current information I have. I need a lot more info on this book and it needs to have some pretty serious magical powers before I'll believe a student learned overnight to kill a rabbit blind, with a pencil, in one go

- page 19: this description of how the book is made and its pages belongs with the first book being opened, not down on page 19

- page 22: it's hard not to skim. I still don't know what the plot of this book is, or the stakes, or the through line. The 'human brain is magic' part was too much handwavium. I'm lost and not invested.

- page 22: not a race, a species, and if it's a species of 'big human guys,' then it didn't last more than one generation, cause 'guys' can't reproduce alone. Not hominid guys, anyway

- page 24: 'ethnic differences' could be expressed a lot better

- nouns in German are capitalized

- page 29: I think he passed the line between scientist and looter a long time ago

- page 30: the only thing he really needs to be able to see are the molars to check age. Are even the teeth covered?

- page 36: so wait, does the skull just get dumped?

- page 36: literally no one wants to read a thesis turned into a book. These companies only exist to make money off of grad students

 

Edited by kais
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