Hoid drinking at the fair (Cosmere Implications)

[PallonianFire]

Dunno if this has been discussed yet or not, but the man talking to Brightlord Davar, presumably Hoid, puts something in his drink; Shallan panics, thinking it's poison, but then Hoid drinks it. Metal flakes, perhaps? Further proof that his protecting the bead of Lerasium "like [his] own skin" is that he actually burned it?

[Swimmingly]

Either some bronze to detect Shallan's Lightweaving, or maybe Pewter if he was suspicious about being attacked or poisoned.

[PallonianFire]

I like that we know he's now got two of the Scadrian powers. WoB was that he was a Feruchemist, right? And that he uses that to worldhop, somehow?

[Swimmingly]

Feruchemy, allomancy, BioChroma, Lightweaving, and I would not be surprised if he has working knowledge of some Selian magics that only require the forms to use.

[Kurkistan]

Yes, I agree that it's quite clear that he's putting in Allomantic metals. Probably Bronze to better detect Shallan's Surgebinding.

 

We know that he didn't burn the bead (storm it, can't find the source), so it seems that he must have gotten Allomancy a different way.

 

Peter basically confirmed that Hoid was putting in metals, btw.

 

EDIT: Found it!

 

Source:

Q: We know that Hoid has a bead of Lerasium, that he obtained during the events of The Well of Ascension.  As of the most recent Cosmere book chronologically, (The Alloy of Law, I believe,) has it been used?

 

A: Well, umm... probably not exactly in the way you're thinking...

 

Q: OK, specifically, has it been used either by Hoid burning it or by him giving it to someone else to burn?

 

A: Well, Hoid's a very resourceful person, and he finds uses for most of the things he gets ahold of, though they're not always the expected uses.  So yeah, he's found something to do with it, but I'll have to RAFO that one, because it's going to come up in later books and I don't want to spoil things.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Kurkistan

[skaa]

Yes, I agree that it's quite clear that he's putting in Allomantic metals. Probably Bronze to better detect Shallan's Surgebinding.

 

We know that he didn't burn the bead (storm it, can't find the source), so it seems that he must have gotten Allomancy a different way.

 

Peter basically confirmed that Hoid was putting in metals, btw.

 

EDIT: Found it!

 

Source:

 

Theory: He's using either Feruchemy or Fabrial Science to get the Allomantic power from that Lerasium bead without burning it. Watch out for any description of Wit wearing a ring, possibly with a gemstone on it. Though... it's possible that he hid the thing in his flesh to keep it from getting stolen.

[DefiantBurrito]

I asked Brandon about this at the San Diego signing, and while I wish I had phrased the question a bit better, I'm still pretty confident that it was Allomancy...

 

Words are not exact, but roughly:

 

Me: "Can you tell me what Wit put in his drink in Shallan's flashback scene?"

Brandon: "It was something that you or I would probably not want to eat in our world, but that Wit got some benefit from eating..."

Me: "Something we've seen in the Mistborn books, perhaps?"

Brandon: <sounding pleased> "Yes, perhaps like something you've seen in Mistborn"

 

I mean, the phrasing wasn't airtight but that's good enough for me.  I think Bronze is a good guess but it could have also been Zinc/Brass to manipulate Shallan's emotions and get more information out of her, or Tin to try to observe more about her, or a mix of all of the above. It could even be some exotic alloy or "the 11th metal", maybe he wanted to see Shallan's possible future or something.  Not sure it matters exactly, in any case it seems like the goal was to get more information about Shallan.

 

 

About Hoid's lerasium... That's interesting that he didn't swallow it, I assumed that he had based on this quote:

"Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say."

 http://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Letter

 

 

Maybe if he hasn't swallowed it, but has it close to his skin, he could be using it for Feruchemy?  What would feruchemical Lerasium even do?  (I guess we can only speculate...)

[Kurkistan]

Thanks for the info, Burrito. And you're quite right that Hoid could have been trying to use other metals as well. It's just that the rather hurried way he did it suggested "I've gotta double-check that reading" to me.

[Zenith]

Maybe if he hasn't swallowed it, but has it close to his skin, he could be using it for Feruchemy?  What would feruchemical Lerasium even do?  (I guess we can only speculate...)

Perhaps Feruchemical Lerasium lets anyone store up periods of Allomantic/Feruchemical power.

Slight tangent, what would Hemalurgic Lerasium do (that's kind of odd, considering that's Preservation and Ruin together), and do we know what would happen if someone tried to burn a Hemalurgic spice?

[Zmann966]

I just want to add a small point; found in the Ars Arcanum of WoR, under the Lightweaving Surge entry

 

 

  In many ways, this is the most similar ability to the original Yolish variant, which excites me. I wish to delve more into this ability, with the hope to gain a full understanding of how it relates to Cognitive and Spiritual attributes.

Hoid's Lightweaving seems likely from his origin on Yolen, which we know to have happened quite a while back. Causes me, at least, to further wonder how exactly the Shards-Hoid-and the subsequent magic system overlap. We know a bit about the "fuel" of Investiture and the like, but this is a blatant overlap of ability. This is directly saying that The Surge of Illumination is traced back to Yolen.
I wonder how much else overlaps beyond the normal realmatic rules we already know. They even point out that Roshar Lightweaving is far more connected than the illusionary magic used on Sel (probably referring to the Elantrians, but could, just as well link to Forging... Which has me confused because Roshar Lightweaving is said to require a more spiritual element than Sel's... I guess Forging is more cognitive isn't it?) 

 

Truthfully, more so than anything else, whoever put this Ars Arcanum together on Roshar (hinted to be Navani, but possily Jasnah? Probably neither) knows quite a bit about the cosmere, suspiciously so.

 

[ranstang94]

another overlap is how close soul casting and Forging actually are. If you remember the explanation given about Forging indicated that the object Forged had to want to change... "I am a stick" 

[Kurkistan]

I have serious doubts that the object needs to "want" the change for it to work in Forging. Maybe it helps, but it's certainly not a requirement. What horse "wants" to be a nag, or door rotten?

[Goatborn]

As I recall, lerasium combined with another metal (a lerasium alloy, I guess) produces a new set of 16 metals. Perhaps he combined it with Brass to produce the ability to burn a specific set of 16 emotional allomantic metals?

 

I think that no matter how he got his allomancy, he was using emotional allomancy to pump Shallan's father for info. Possibly on Shallan's origin. Did he do his double take at Shallan before or after he drank the metals? I got the impression it was before, so I don't think it was Bronze.

 

I also assumed that Sel's lightweaving was the Elantrian disguises used heavily in Elantris, rather than forging. Forging always seemed more like Soulcasting.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

 

I think that no matter how he got his allomancy, he was using emotional allomancy to pump Shallan's father for info. Possibly on Shallan's origin. Did he do his double take at Shallan before or after he drank the metals? I got the impression it was before, so I don't think it was Bronze.

 

 

 

I agree. I thought that after meeting with Hoid, Shallan's father was much more reserved. It seems to be one of the few times he opens up to her and is more deflated than angry. I think that Hoid hadn't wanted to use emotional allomancy on him before, but after seeing Shallan enter, he wanted to make sure that his anger at Hoid wasn't spread to anyone not deserving, so he soothed away the anger before departing. 

[Kurkistan]

Turns out it was almost certainly emotional allomancy.

 

Source:

 

What alloy did Hoid drink?

A: He wanted to make people act in the way he wanted them to.

[Observer]

I just want to add a small point; found in the Ars Arcanum of WoR, under the Lightweaving Surge entry

Hoid's Lightweaving seems likely from his origin on Yolen, which we know to have happened quite a while back. Causes me, at least, to further wonder how exactly the Shards-Hoid-and the subsequent magic system overlap. We know a bit about the "fuel" of Investiture and the like, but this is a blatant overlap of ability. This is directly saying that The Surge of Illumination is traced back to Yolen.

I wonder how much else overlaps beyond the normal realmatic rules we already know. They even point out that Roshar Lightweaving is far more connected than the illusionary magic used on Sel (probably referring to the Elantrians, but could, just as well link to Forging... Which has me confused because Roshar Lightweaving is said to require a more spiritual element than Sel's... I guess Forging is more cognitive isn't it?)&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Truthfully, more so than anything else, whoever put this Ars Arcanum together on Roshar (hinted to be Navani, but possily Jasnah? Probably neither) knows quite a bit about the cosmere, suspiciously so.

I always got the impression that when Adonalsium shattered, its magic systems also broke alongside it. Lightweave just happened to remain mostly intact when it emerged on Roshar.

Also, it seems that Hoid did what Miles did and implanted the bead into himself for safekeeping. He'd be able to tap it with Feruchemy, getting whatever effect it gives, while at the same time keeping it as safe as it can get, considering that Hoid is one of the most powerful people in the Cosmere and pulling it out of him probably wouldn't be very easy.

EDIT: Line breaks.

Also, nice job Kurk!

Edited March 25, 2014 by Observer

[smokeesid]

I would like to revive this thread to sate one of my questions about the reason that he is able to use allomancy in Roshar. I was under the impression that one type of magic could only be used within the purview of the pertaining shard. Or is it because the investiture is a kind of magical particle that enables such exploits if it is present in any planet?

[mostgratuitous]

I would like to revive this thread to sate one of my questions about the reason that he is able to use allomancy in Roshar. I was under the impression that one type of magic could only be used within the purview of the pertaining shard. Or is it because the investiture is a kind of magical particle that enables such exploits if it is present in any planet?

 

IIRC, Brandon once commented that someone from Sel (Galladon, for example) would be able to use AonDor on a planet like, say, Roshar, if the proper steps were taken. I don't remember where I read that, though.

[Kurkistan]

Source:

 

I went and saw Brandon at the Sandy signing today and got to ask him a couple questions. Just thought i would share this info with all of you

1. Could you make a Rosharan Nightblood? Invest something with another magic to make it sentient?

A: I got a RAFO card

2. Could Nightblood be powered by Stormlight?

A: Yes. It would take some juryrigging, but all of the magic systems are compatible. It is possible to fuel allomancy with breath (that's the example Brandon gave), or any of the other magics with other forms of investiture. Difficult, but possible.

 

Source:

 

ODIUM'S_SHARD

Can magic systems from one world work in any given other?

BRANDON SANDERSON

For some, it will take quite a bit of work, but it's possible to get them each to work. Sel's magics are regional, and so they are going to be tough. Scadrial's magics are the easiest.

 

[Moogle]

I would like to revive this thread to sate one of my questions about the reason that he is able to use allomancy in Roshar. I was under the impression that one type of magic could only be used within the purview of the pertaining shard. Or is it because the investiture is a kind of magical particle that enables such exploits if it is present in any planet?

 

We don't know the exact mechanics, but we say with some certainty that Hoid is drawing on Preservation. Investiture is very different from different Shards, so it's unlikely he's using Honor, Cultivation, or Odium to fuel it.

 

As to how this works, we know the Shards can teleport anywhere in the Cosmere. I imagine this makes them 'universal' enough that when Hoid draws on Preservation through his metaphorical straw (metals), the Investiture poofs on over from Scadrial.

 

It's all theories at this point, though. It could be he was using Stormlight for power and using the metals merely as a focus or something. I doubt that, though.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Moogle

[hoser]

I totally endorse everything mostgratuitous, Kurkistan and Moogle have written.  There may be nothing more to it. 

 

The possibility also exists that Hoid has acquired investiture of Adonalsium.  Roshar has been invested by Adonalsium.  Adonalsium investiture, as it is the basis of all the Shards, has the potential to be some sort of universal donor or receptor (in the privacy of one fanciful fan's mind, at least). 

 

There are more things in the Cosmere than are dreamt of in my philosophy . 

[Hoid Is Dead]

Uhm, a question, where did you read this? I don't remember reading this chapter :S

[Kurkistan]

It was the Shallan interlude, where they were at the fair and she was trying to rehabilitate her brothers. Hoid was the guy talking to her father, then trying to get Shallan to eat Stormlight.

[AerionBFII]

In a WOB Brandon said Shallan's father was influenced by Odium, i think maybe he was fishing for info on the father of hatred or perhaps he new her mother. I think Shallan was a total shock for him via his reaction to seeing her and i think it peaks his interest from the way he sought her out after he finished with her father. 

 

I find it interesting how he instinctively seems to know exactly what she is from the way he manipulates her into using Lightweaving. Im to lazy to check but when i was reading i think he uses Emotional Allomancy on both of them.

 

Id love to see his reasoning but from his little POV's he doesn't seem to be... all there. 

[Omniscience]

Seeing as Lerasium is "the power of Preservation itself" Hoid could be using the Lerasium to create a link to Preservation and fuel his allomancy on other planets.