Teaghen Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 Hey all, So before I get to it, just wanted to say hi to everyone, nice to see a thriving community of Sanderson fans. I’m about to undertake my bachelor’s degree dissertation, in Religious Studies. I wondered if any of you could help, give feedback or simply point me in the direction of useful material. Overview: I will explore the idea that – Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere universe, has rediscovered nuance in modern myth-making; combing with a post-modernist deconstructivism. Using techniques, that although prevalent in ancient myth, have been all but absent in modern myth-making i.e. fantasy literature. This combing of ancient knowledge/techniques and post-modernist questioning has led to a unique product of contemporary meaning. What I am looking for: So general feedback or overall comments (but please include feedback of clear points of why for or against). Any academic work that has already been done on Sanderson and pertaining to my question (please include a link). I would also like to hear if you feel there is other fantasy series that are rivals to this. Bit of a serious post for my first one, but that’s my life right now, all about my dissertation. Much appreciated to any constructive comments you can add. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) I’d be happy to help with what I can. I’m a bit pressed for time right now, but I can try to get back to you this weekend, if you like? In the interests of full disclosure, I’ve written an essay on why Mistborn should be considered a classic for my freshman lit class, although I look back at its quality and cringe. I could send it to you, if you like, but I’m sure it won’t be much of a help Edit: could you perhaps elaborate on what techniques you think he uniquely uses? It’d make it easier to consider what other books to mention Edited January 16, 2018 by Bugsy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teaghen Posted January 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 Yes! here a more extensive list of my current thoughts (this being too long to include in my initial intro) (1) The blurring of fact and fiction a. How the viewer gains an understanding of the creation and function of mythos b. The indistinct line between these two (2) The mixing of Science, Religion and Magic a. These conceptions co-existing and subverting each other within the novel b. Scientific techniques used to advance magic systems c. Magic systems existing within a logical (scientific) Framework d. The intermingling of magic and religion (3) The question of Truth a. How the godlike perspective of the viewer, leads to an understanding of different interpretations b. The ‘truth’ within each interpretation c. Understanding why the mythos develops in the way it does d. How ‘truth’ becomes integral parts of the societies (4) The role of culture within these invented religions a. The link this has to point (5) b. The link this has to point (3) c. How to distinguish religion from culture (5) Why certain invented religions feel so real to us a. What makes a realistic religion b. Compare this to less believable invented religion (6) How these insights can be used to understand the real world a. How fact and fiction are not as distinct as we often believe b. How classifications (science, religion and magic) are often not as distinct as we believe c. How ‘Truth’ can be a thing concerning perspective rather than fact (7) The death and creation of gods a. The complex interlinked nature of the gods of his universe and the people b. In one story arc it is revelled that a planets god was killed years ago, in another we see the creation of a god c. This question and it’s link to point (1) and (2) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Secret Corner Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, Teaghen said: Yes! here a more extensive list of my current thoughts (this being too long to include in my initial intro) (1) The blurring of fact and fiction a. How the viewer gains an understanding of the creation and function of mythos b. The indistinct line between these two (2) The mixing of Science, Religion and Magic a. These conceptions co-existing and subverting each other within the novel b. Scientific techniques used to advance magic systems c. Magic systems existing within a logical (scientific) Framework d. The intermingling of magic and religion (3) The question of Truth a. How the godlike perspective of the viewer, leads to an understanding of different interpretations b. The ‘truth’ within each interpretation c. Understanding why the mythos develops in the way it does d. How ‘truth’ becomes integral parts of the societies (4) The role of culture within these invented religions a. The link this has to point (5) b. The link this has to point (3) c. How to distinguish religion from culture (5) Why certain invented religions feel so real to us a. What makes a realistic religion b. Compare this to less believable invented religion (6) How these insights can be used to understand the real world a. How fact and fiction are not as distinct as we often believe b. How classifications (science, religion and magic) are often not as distinct as we believe c. How ‘Truth’ can be a thing concerning perspective rather than fact (7) The death and creation of gods a. The complex interlinked nature of the gods of his universe and the people b. In one story arc it is revelled that a planets god was killed years ago, in another we see the creation of a god c. This question and it’s link to point (1) and (2) I can't think of any feedback but... ... I think the very terminology involved in the above post speaks greatly about Brandon as a writer and why I, and probably others too, like him so much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Teaghen said: Overview: I will explore the idea that – Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere universe, has rediscovered nuance in modern myth-making; combing with a post-modernist deconstructivism. Using techniques, that although prevalent in ancient myth, have been all but absent in modern myth-making i.e. fantasy literature. This combing of ancient knowledge/techniques and post-modernist questioning has led to a unique product of contemporary meaning. Hi @Teaghen, welcome to the Shard! I really like the general outline of your dissertation and would like to help you but I'm having difficultly understanding your thesis. What do you mean by the point at the end of your overview (highlighted above)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teaghen Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 I have outlined above (see the second comment), but uniqueness is mostly how throughout Brandon Cosmere there is a strong sense of morality - but not a simplistic morality of good and evil, instead, being heavily nuanced. I intend to put this, in contrast, to to to trends in mainstream fantasy, of ether more simplistic morality or a rejection of morality. But it is key to note that this is within the high fantasy tradition and not just all fantasy that does not have the grandness scope of the Cosmere (as for example the work of Patrick Ruthfuss or Joe Abercrombie) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teaghen Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 17 hours ago, Secrets said: I can't think of any feedback but... ... I think the very terminology involved in the above post speaks greatly about Brandon as a writer and why I, and probably others too, like him so much. Thank you, even just to hear that there is other fan's that appreciate my work (so far) is greatly encouraging 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 On 1/17/2018 at 9:03 AM, Teaghen said: I have outlined above (see the second comment), but uniqueness is mostly how throughout Brandon Cosmere there is a strong sense of morality - but not a simplistic morality of good and evil, instead, being heavily nuanced. I intend to put this, in contrast, to to to trends in mainstream fantasy, of ether more simplistic morality or a rejection of morality. But it is key to note that this is within the high fantasy tradition and not just all fantasy that does not have the grandness scope of the Cosmere (as for example the work of Patrick Ruthfuss or Joe Abercrombie) Ahh, ok, that makes a lot more sense. There is a stark divide in the morally gray fantasy of writers like GRR Martin and the writing of BWS that is written with a moral imperative. Your outline doesn't have explicitly where you are going to draw these comparisons (unless you are planning to do a parallel investigation of both types for each point). Structurally, I think you are best off by examining the work of BWS first according to your general outline, and then having a conclusion for each major section where you show how brandon's writing is different than the other type of morally gray epic fantasy. Also, for points where the divide between the two is specifically wide, you might do some textual analysis of the morally gray fantasy. I love Brandon's work precisely because it's written moral imperative, and the comparative religions that he creates for the Cosmere function as background screens where small nuanced elements of belief stand out in high contrast. I like your general outline a lot, I have quoted it below (spoilered, with suggestions for individual points in red) Spoiler On 1/16/2018 at 2:33 PM, Teaghen said: (1) The blurring of fact and fiction a. How the viewer gains an understanding of the creation and function of mythos(Like the WOT, a lot of the base beliefs in Cosmere books are shown through Curses, also might be nice to talk about Aristotle's definition of Mythos from the Poetics, he view of tragedy, that Mythos is essentially the plot, the actions that the character perform, it's an interesting counterpoint to the other definition of Mythos which is generally held belief) b. The indistinct line between these two(Because magic is real, and you get to see behind the curtain, but only a small bit at a time. you get to see how the manifestation of the religion is informed by the actual governing powers at play, but through how the narrative is constructed, you are subject to the same native blindness to the motivations/powers/limits of the powers at play. This simulates the mystery of native believers in the religion) (2) The mixing of Science, Religion and Magic a. These conceptions co-existing and subverting each other within the novel(Examples: Sazed's crisis of belief in the first 3 mistborn novels, Jasnah being a Knight Radiant, a scholar and an Aethiest, the Recreance flowing into the Heirocracy, flowing into Ardents as property.) b. Scientific techniques used to advance magic systems(Examples: The Ars Arcanum entries, Ardents studying spren and finding quantum mechanic like entanglement (also the quantum mechanic like entanglement of Spanreed gems, long distant synchronized movement), the 5 Scholars in Warbreaker) c. Magic systems existing within a logical (scientific) Framework(Examples: All of brandon's magic systems. The most complete and obviously scientifically based are the Metallic arts of Scadrial) d. The intermingling of magic and religion(Examples: Survivorism, the Set, Vorin dogma and especially the Reclaiming of the Tranquiline halls) (3) The question of Truth a. How the godlike perspective of the viewer, leads to an understanding of different interpretations(See response above to point 1) b. The ‘truth’ within each interpretation(Sazed's struggle with belief in Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages would be a good case study to use, to show the nuances of the possible beliefs and Socratic methodology that Brandon uses for proof, he invites the reader on a dialog with self about what these things truly mean) c. Understanding why the mythos develops in the way it does(The 2 Mistborn trilogies are good case studies of this, also the linkages and differences between examined religions on Roshar show this as well) d. How ‘truth’ becomes integral parts of the societies(Religious Institutions, like the Church of the Irridescent tones, the Church of the Survivor and Vorin Church are possible things to examine for this point) (4) The role of culture within these invented religions a. The link this has to point (5) b. The link this has to point (3) (Point 3d) c. How to distinguish religion from culture (5) Why certain invented religions feel so real to us a. What makes a realistic religion b. Compare this to less believable invented religion (6) How these insights can be used to understand the real world a. How fact and fiction are not as distinct as we often believe b. How classifications (science, religion and magic) are often not as distinct as we believe c. How ‘Truth’ can be a thing concerning perspective rather than fact (7) The death and creation of gods a. The complex interlinked nature of the gods of his universe and the people b. In one story arc it is revelled that a planets god was killed years ago, in another we see the creation of a god c. This question and it’s link to point (1) and (2) Totally take these for just the suggestions that they are. I don't think I fully addressed how to pull in other fantasy series to contrast your points, but I think you have a very solid framework outlined and I think you are on your way to making a great dissertation. One final point, the only work that is comparable in construction and effect to the works of Brandon Sanderson is Plutarch's Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans. Like Brandon, Plutarch shows the contextual framework in which the subjects of his Biographies lived, what they believed, what their characters were like (strengths and weaknesses) and draws very obvious conclusions about how their character, morals and beliefs affected the outcome of their lives. Might be something to bring in for comparative purposes (it's epic history though, not really epic fantasy, though the Story of Timoleon reads like an amazing fantasy novella). Best of luck! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teaghen Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 19/01/2018 at 6:05 AM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Ahh, ok, that makes a lot more sense. There is a stark divide in the morally gray fantasy of writers like GRR Martin and the writing of BWS that is written with a moral imperative. Your outline doesn't have explicitly where you are going to draw these comparisons (unless you are planning to do a parallel investigation of both types for each point). Structurally, I think you are best off by examining the work of BWS first according to your general outline, and then having a conclusion for each major section where you show how brandon's writing is different than the other type of morally gray epic fantasy. Also, for points where the divide between the two is specifically wide, you might do some textual analysis of the morally gray fantasy. I love Brandon's work precisely because it's written moral imperative, and the comparative religions that he creates for the Cosmere function as background screens where small nuanced elements of belief stand out in high contrast. I like your general outline a lot, I have quoted it below (spoilered, with suggestions for individual points in red) Reveal hidden contents Totally take these for just the suggestions that they are. I don't think I fully addressed how to pull in other fantasy series to contrast your points, but I think you have a very solid framework outlined and I think you are on your way to making a great dissertation. One final point, the only work that is comparable in construction and effect to the works of Brandon Sanderson is Plutarch's Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans. Like Brandon, Plutarch shows the contextual framework in which the subjects of his Biographies lived, what they believed, what their characters were like (strengths and weaknesses) and draws very obvious conclusions about how their character, morals and beliefs affected the outcome of their lives. Might be something to bring in for comparative purposes (it's epic history though, not really epic fantasy, though the Story of Timoleon reads like an amazing fantasy novella). Best of luck! Thank you first of all for the feedback. But overall yeah its finding points of good contrast that I am struggling with so I will definitely have a look at Plutarch's Lives as this could be my connection to ancient myth. I think I will use the critic of Brandon as a 'mix of J.R.R. Tolkien and George R.R. Martin' as a springboard for my critic, perhaps also comparing him to Rothfuss. But the area of most focus for me (and the thing that is so hard to define) is why Sanderson is such a refreshing fantasy writer, not just the old themes and motifs with a new paint job, but instead an original take on these ancient themes. I like the 'mix of ...' critic above as it gets as close as I have seen to the uniqueness of Sanderson; it is, of course, an oversimplified version-but still close to the mark. But it is developing this idea that I am currently struggling with, trying to pin down why (for me at least) Sanderson isn't just another excellent writer, but one of the most insightful writers of the century (so far). But if anyone has any links to any academic material on Sanderson, or on this area of study, in general, that would be much appreciated Cheers in advance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 1/30/2018 at 4:38 AM, Teaghen said: But if anyone has any links to any academic material on Sanderson, or on this area of study, in general, that would be much appreciated I was just reading Philip K. Dick's Exegesis, and I noticed that one of the contributing Editors/Annotators had written a book which is the Science Fiction analog of your project, might be instructive to see a parallel system of analysis along the same lines as your paper. The book is "The Gospel According to Science Fiction: From the Twilight Zone to the Final Frontier" by Gabriel McKee. https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-according-Science-Fiction-Twilight/dp/0664229018/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517587449&sr=8-1&keywords=the+gospel+according+to+science+fiction 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teaghen Posted February 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: The book is "The Gospel According to Science Fiction: From the Twilight Zone to the Final Frontier" by Gabriel McKee. https://www.amazon.com/Gospel-according-Science-Fiction-Twilight/dp/0664229018/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1517587449&sr=8-1&keywords=the+gospel+according+to+science+fiction Thank you, that's incredibly helpful, aside from anything it looks to be a great read! If it turns out to be helpful will be an added perk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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