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Sel Magic Thoughts


marles

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I just made it through Elantris for my second time (first time through after other Cosmere related stories) although I haven't read through any annotations or many WoB's from Elantris. Just wanted to put some of my thoughts out even though I am sure all or most have probably been discussed thoroughly given how long Elantris has been out without receiving an incredible amount of additional material to go off of.

Sel-based magic as a whole seems to be granted to individuals that are incredibly devoted to something. Their access to the Dor seems to then be determined by the land/region they most identify with (AonDor for Arelon, Dakhor for Fjorden, etc.). We see Shuden, who appears completely normal, use ChayShan and appear to have a glowing effect while using it (from accessing the Dor). Dilaf also appears normal while clothed, but has shapes in his bones, and has a glowing effect when accessing the power granted to him from Dakhor.

While I've been lurking around this forum I have seen it posted before that AonDor can be thought of similar to a programming language. Having that in mind during my second read made me think of the Elantrians in a very similar way to characters from another book, Off to be the Wizard. To summarize what I see as similarities from Off to be the Wizard, a group of characters find a "program of the universe" if you will. They then create their own functions within this program to perform preset actions which would essentially be magic. The group sets up specific identifiers within the program to only allow people that meet certain criteria (specific individuals that must be carrying a staff of certain length and wearing a hat and robe of specific dimensions) to run their unique functions. I couldn't stop thinking that Elantris worked in a similar way. Before the existence of the city, I would think that anybody from Arelon with access to the Dor would also appear completely normal unless the Dor was actively being used. Aons were probably not particularly strong so some well informed practitioners decided to make a set of incredibly large (and essentially permanent) Aons to boost their power and provide other desired effects.

Elantris seems to be a set of Aons targeted only at individuals that meet certain criteria (access to the Dor and have a connection to Arelon) that increases the power of their Aons and (I assume) gives them their quicker healing, agelessness, etc. The extra healing/agelessness given by the Elantris Aons are what I believe gives the Elantrians their constant glowing from the Dor actively effecting them. From the story about Dilaf's wife, it seems that when an Aon that is targeted at a person goes wrong, it gives the same effect as the Reod. This leads to thinking that all Elantrians appear as they do because the entire set of Elantris Aons that are targeted at them are incorrect (because of the missing chasm line). What isn't really answered though, is why an incomplete targeted Aon traps the recipient in the Reod state. How can they continue to function, almost normally, without food, breathing, etc? Also, why does (seemingly) only Raoden experience the waves of AonDor pushing against him internally until he completes his first functional Aon?

The various types of access to the Dor seem to be partially or fully region-locked on Sel. AonDor is weaker as the user is further from Elantris, and I believe a WoB said that Forgeries stop working if moved sufficiently far away. Without more source material it's a bit hard to determine the drop-off effects of each system. AonDor was weaker in Teod but is it actually just the normal strength of AonDor without the boost from Elantris? The Aons drawn in Teod are weaker but what about any other possible effects added from Elantris (we don't see Raoden stop glowing there)? When the Dakhor monks are revealed they seem to have the same power regardless of location, and ChayShan is still very powerful in Teod. Does the region-locking of Sel magic have to do with regional ideas/culture as well and not just location in the world? Do Dakhor powers continue to work because the shapes are formed in the bones themselves, or because Fjorden culture may see all the land as theirs and that it is just currently occupied by heretics, or because Derethi efforts are not only aligned with Devotion but with Dominion as well? I don't see why the land itself would make a difference to the Dor unless it is based on how the people as a whole view that land.

I can't wait for more stories to come out that take place on Sel. It will be interesting to find out more of the inner workings of the Dor and begin to see how that may shape the Cosmere events in the future. Any feedback, clarifications, or other discussion would be appreciated!

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8 hours ago, marles said:

I just made it through Elantris for my second time (first time through after other Cosmere related stories) although I haven't read through any annotations or many WoB's from Elantris. Just wanted to put some of my thoughts out even though I am sure all or most have probably been discussed thoroughly given how long Elantris has been out without receiving an incredible amount of additional material to go off of.

Sel-based magic as a whole seems to be granted to individuals that are incredibly devoted to something. Their access to the Dor seems to then be determined by the land/region they most identify with (AonDor for Arelon, Dakhor for Fjorden, etc.). We see Shuden, who appears completely normal, use ChayShan and appear to have a glowing effect while using it (from accessing the Dor). Dilaf also appears normal while clothed, but has shapes in his bones, and has a glowing effect when accessing the power granted to him from Dakhor.

While I've been lurking around this forum I have seen it posted before that AonDor can be thought of similar to a programming language. Having that in mind during my second read made me think of the Elantrians in a very similar way to characters from another book, Off to be the Wizard. To summarize what I see as similarities from Off to be the Wizard, a group of characters find a "program of the universe" if you will. They then create their own functions within this program to perform preset actions which would essentially be magic. The group sets up specific identifiers within the program to only allow people that meet certain criteria (specific individuals that must be carrying a staff of certain length and wearing a hat and robe of specific dimensions) to run their unique functions. I couldn't stop thinking that Elantris worked in a similar way. Before the existence of the city, I would think that anybody from Arelon with access to the Dor would also appear completely normal unless the Dor was actively being used. Aons were probably not particularly strong so some well informed practitioners decided to make a set of incredibly large (and essentially permanent) Aons to boost their power and provide other desired effects.

Elantris seems to be a set of Aons targeted only at individuals that meet certain criteria (access to the Dor and have a connection to Arelon) that increases the power of their Aons and (I assume) gives them their quicker healing, agelessness, etc. The extra healing/agelessness given by the Elantris Aons are what I believe gives the Elantrians their constant glowing from the Dor actively effecting them. From the story about Dilaf's wife, it seems that when an Aon that is targeted at a person goes wrong, it gives the same effect as the Reod. This leads to thinking that all Elantrians appear as they do because the entire set of Elantris Aons that are targeted at them are incorrect (because of the missing chasm line). What isn't really answered though, is why an incomplete targeted Aon traps the recipient in the Reod state. How can they continue to function, almost normally, without food, breathing, etc? Also, why does (seemingly) only Raoden experience the waves of AonDor pushing against him internally until he completes his first functional Aon?

The various types of access to the Dor seem to be partially or fully region-locked on Sel. AonDor is weaker as the user is further from Elantris, and I believe a WoB said that Forgeries stop working if moved sufficiently far away. Without more source material it's a bit hard to determine the drop-off effects of each system. AonDor was weaker in Teod but is it actually just the normal strength of AonDor without the boost from Elantris? The Aons drawn in Teod are weaker but what about any other possible effects added from Elantris (we don't see Raoden stop glowing there)? When the Dakhor monks are revealed they seem to have the same power regardless of location, and ChayShan is still very powerful in Teod. Does the region-locking of Sel magic have to do with regional ideas/culture as well and not just location in the world? Do Dakhor powers continue to work because the shapes are formed in the bones themselves, or because Fjorden culture may see all the land as theirs and that it is just currently occupied by heretics, or because Derethi efforts are not only aligned with Devotion but with Dominion as well? I don't see why the land itself would make a difference to the Dor unless it is based on how the people as a whole view that land.

I can't wait for more stories to come out that take place on Sel. It will be interesting to find out more of the inner workings of the Dor and begin to see how that may shape the Cosmere events in the future. Any feedback, clarifications, or other discussion would be appreciated!

Great job picking up all of these things!  I completely missed 90% of them on my reads of Elantris :D

I can answer some of your questions, but there'll be Cosmere spoilers involved.  If you don't mind, then read on!

AonDor is indeed very like a programming language.

The mechanisms of who is chosen to be an Elantrian are still unclear.  Generally, we suspect that something written in to the Elantris Aon is meant to seek out and change those who would be good conduits for the Dor.  The people are trapped in the Reod state (both new and existing Elantrians) because, like the semi-functional Aons, there's enough energy to keep them going, but not enough to complete the transformation/keep them...charged up, if you will...as full Elantrians.

Raoden experiences the waves of AonDor because he worked very hard to become practiced and skillful at drawing Aons.  The Dor, by its nature, wants to escape and be used.  Raoden, by his practice and knowledge, became a decent conduit for it, so it kept trying to force its way out through him.

 

Access to the Dor is indeed region based.  The reason for this is

Spoiler

Because when Odium splintered Devotion and Dominion, he stuffed their power into the Cognitive Realm, because he didn't want it to hang around and gain sentience on its own.  Normally, Shardic magic is Spiritual Realm based, where distance and time aren't factors.  The Cognitive Realm, however, has distance, and a specific type of geography.  Because of this, when the Dor finds an adequate funnel? conduit? it will only work in relation to the region that its conduit is Connected to.

Connection does have a bit of a perception element, I think.  For example, if the countries in Fjordell began to see themselves as a single nation, I think that the magic would gradually shift so that it would be based on that single nation, rather than the separate parts.  This would take generations or centuries, though.  The people would have to truly see themselves as one country, and be Connected to that country as a whole, rather than just their part of it.

Because Elantris is a giant magnifier for AonDor, the drop off is more noticable.  MUCH more powerful nearby, tapering off rapidly to average levels.  That lower level probably has a decent range where it's functional before it tapers off to uselessness.  If an Elantrian were to get too far from Elantris, they would stop glowing and would probably start to age unless they got infusions of Investiture.  Think of it like a flashlight in a dimly lit room.  The flashlight is very bright in one spot, and then tapers off quite fast, but the background light is still available beyond the boundaries of the beam.

The Dhakor monks' bones and muscles supposedly form a rough approximation of Fjordell.  I don't think that the countries they've conquered have begun to see themselves as one nation yet, so the nature of each one's individual magics has not likely shifted much.

 

 

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7 hours ago, RShara said:

The mechanisms of who is chosen to be an Elantrian are still unclear.  Generally, we suspect that something written in to the Elantris Aon is meant to seek out and change those who would be good conduits for the Dor. 

I just wanted to clarify this statement. Are you saying that it is suspected that the Elantris Aon is targeting people and thus giving the selected people healing, agelessness, etc, AND access to AonDor? I was thinking that there was some threshold of devotion/connection to the land that granted access to AonDor (or the Dor in general) and then the Elantris Aon somehow targeted those people specifically to give the other effects. Are there any WoB's or other evidence that lean one way or the other?

Also, as we see at least once in the story, Raoden reads a text that is written entirely in Aons. At first, this made me wonder if the language developed because of the workings/use of AonDor or if Aons focusing the Dor developed because that was part of the identity of Arelon. But neither of those things really make sense. If the language developed because those were the shapes that focused the Dor, why would those shapes only work in Arelon? If the Dor was focused through Aons because that was the language in the land/there was a connection that way, why would the Aons continue to work when that written language is basically dead and another has taken hold? Seeing how ChayShan was used in the story (no directly seen relation to country shape while performing) made me think that there is a more rudimentary way of accessing the Dor and that Elantris is not just a power amplifier of sorts but it is what is defining the specific functions of the Aons as well. I think the Aons being designed functions of the Dor makes a bit more sense knowing that there are many various modifiers for each Aon that seem to be specific. I think when Raoden is preparing the transportation Aon he is able to specify a travel length by marking the length of a "travel unit" (in this instance, length of a step) and then marking how many "travel units" he needs to be displaced. It seems odd that the Dor would have such specific identifiable parameters unless they were placed there by design.

8 hours ago, RShara said:

The Dhakor monks' bones and muscles supposedly form a rough approximation of Fjordell.  I don't think that the countries they've conquered have begun to see themselves as one nation yet, so the nature of each one's individual magics has not likely shifted much.

Thanks for mentioning this in your post. For some reason when I was reading the story, when they mentioned this I was thinking that the bones/muscles looked like the Fjordell written language but reading it in your post made me remember it probably just had the general shape of the nation. And I'm sure you're right about this, I was just grasping as straws as to why we see drop off in the power from some power but not the others.

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1 hour ago, marles said:

I just wanted to clarify this statement. Are you saying that it is suspected that the Elantris Aon is targeting people and thus giving the selected people healing, agelessness, etc, AND access to AonDor? I was thinking that there was some threshold of devotion/connection to the land that granted access to AonDor (or the Dor in general) and then the Elantris Aon somehow targeted those people specifically to give the other effects. Are there any WoB's or other evidence that lean one way or the other?

Being an Elantrian is tied to being able to use AonDor.  Remember that Sarene tried to draw Aons, but couldn't even make them glow in the air.  So at this time, you have to be an Elantrian before you can use AonDor.  Why that is, I'm not sure.  Brandon's been a bit close mouthed about it.

 

Quote

Also, as we see at least once in the story, Raoden reads a text that is written entirely in Aons. At first, this made me wonder if the language developed because of the workings/use of AonDor or if Aons focusing the Dor developed because that was part of the identity of Arelon. But neither of those things really make sense. If the language developed because those were the shapes that focused the Dor, why would those shapes only work in Arelon? If the Dor was focused through Aons because that was the language in the land/there was a connection that way, why would the Aons continue to work when that written language is basically dead and another has taken hold?   Seeing how ChayShan was used in the story (no directly seen relation to country shape while performing) made me think that there is a more rudimentary way of accessing the Dor and that Elantris is not just a power amplifier of sorts but it is what is defining the specific functions of the Aons as well.

The movements of ChayShan mimic the shape of the region that it's from.  I'm sure that the original Elantrians did a lot of experimenting to figure out how Aons could be drawn, how they work, and what they would have to look like. The rest is sort of a chiken-and-egg problem that I don't have enough information to answer, sorry :)

 

The power drop off is really only with AonDor, and not with the other uses of the Dor, because Elantris supercharges AonDor in its area of influence.  Most of the other uses of the Dor have a gradual drop off, because they don't have a giant magnifying lens in the middle of their region.

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