Chuck Hossenlopp - 20180115 - Epoch Win - Chapter 1 - L

[Chuck Hossenlopp]

This is a first chapter, so I won't influence your reactions by telling you anything here. Just give me your reactions, and tell me what you think this story is promising the reader

[Asmodemon]

Overall I’m not quite hooked by this chapter into reading on to the next one. Honestly, and I don’t want to sound blunt (but I know I probably am), but on the whole it is underwhelming. I’ll go into more details on why I say that, as well as some other thoughts I had while reading through the chapter.

 

DND: Not knowing what I was getting into ahead of time, and especially given the chapter title, I first thought this was shaping up to be a generic, DND-like, fantasy, especially with an elvish character named D., which is derivative and not interesting. Glad to see it was actually a game the characters were playing, and that this was shown as early as it did.

 

Third-First person switch: The switch from first person, to third person (kind of) and then back to first person was a little confusing and jarring to me, since there was no context for it. It became clear on the second page as the POV character was using third person to narrate the game he’s playing, but before that moment, and combined with the apparently generic fantasy setting, I was thrown out of the narrative a little.

 

Characters and Avatars: When you start to transition from in-game avatar names to the character names I was having a hard time linking the two. For instance, first you have the ogre, N., then a few lines down you have H., and you mention he’s not an ogre, but I had to go back a bit to realize H. was N..

 

Too many characters, just talking: Speaking of characters, there were a lot of names dropped this first chapter, staring with the avatar names and then the player names. Because there are so many characters talking about things that, at this point, don’t really matter to me, I’m not really getting a feel for the main POV character. And for a first person story that’s really not good. By the end of it I don’t know much about A. and I don’t really have a reason to care yet.

 

Awkward transitions: The story starts with an apparent fantasy setting, but after two pages it transitions into the actual characters playing a game. At first it seems tabletop, because of the thinly veiled references to DND. But then it turns out to be a computer game, and the characters are talking to each other online. And just when you think the chapter is about friends playing a game it changes again, halfway through the chapter, into a theoretical treatise on the origin of the species, which reads as an infodump and has no ties to what happened before and doesn't really set up an interesting conflict.

 

Online versus offline: it actually took a while for me to realize that the game was being played online rather than as a tabletop RPG. When A. leaves there’s no mention of him taking off the headset. He’s just going into another room, shouting at his friends, who answer him and he can hear the answer. That’s not what I expect from a headset to be honest. So when H. tells him to put on his headset I was really confused.   

 

Where’s Waldo: Throughout the piece I was having trouble determining who was actually there in the room with your POV character, and who was actually online. And to be honest by the end of it I still wasn’t a hundred percent sure. You could do some more blocking to clarify that. I think A. and H. are in the room, and S. and J. are not. And when S. leaves the conversation A. and H. meet J. in the hallway outside their room. Is that correct?

 

Conflict: The conflict you’re trying as a hook by the end of the chapter is a weak one. A. and his friends want to go to S. because they’re worried that he’s being pranked and that he will get his feelings hurt. Hurt feelings aren’t really earthshattering as far as hooks are concerned, and none of the characters are worried that they won’t be able to go either. There is no hardship here for anyone, except potentially S., but he’s not the POV character and his problem is either minor (being pranked) or nonexistent (if he’s not being pranked). What’s A.’s conflict in this?

 

Promise to the reader: You asked about the promise to the reader. Honestly, with the transitions this chapter goes through, I’m not sure what the promise is. First it seems a generic fantasy, then it becomes something about a bunch of gamers (which tells me nothing about the genre either), and then it goes into the origin of the species and the potential mystery about that, which will probably end up going through an Indiana Jones / Tomb Raider / Da Vinci Code cover-up of some sort? Is that anywhere close to where you want to take this?  

 

Descriptions: In the fantasy setting you give a basic description of the characters, such as ogre, and dwarf, and a more detailed (though clichéd, but I suppose that was the point) description of the elf character. But then, when we move out of the game you don't describe any of the actual characters so by the end of the chapter there are four named characters but I have no idea what any of them look like. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Asmodemon

[krystalynn03]

Hey,

Thanks for subbing. 

I liked some of the things you were doing, but it felt like I was being yanked back and forth way too much. I didn't realize the narrator was being unreliable at first, so rather than being amused at the cynical voice, I was taking it seriously. When I saw that you were splicing DND narration with more and more 'real life' narration, I was just annoyed as a reader. It's a pity. I saw that word 'Undergloom' in the first paragraph and that name felt so good in my head that I decided to give the writing a chance.

Then you introduced a bunch of real characters all at once with less attention and care than the made-up DND characters. I have no idea how many people were in that scene, and I've got no one to root for.

I'm curious enough about where you're going with the homo-others to want to peek at where you're taking this plot, but if you don't tidy up your narrative voice, I'll check out soon. Tell a clear story first--worry about wit later. 

Work on that, and I'd keep reading.

[kais]

Hi, and welcome to RE!

Overall

I was very confused during the first few pages. Things got better once it was established that they were gaming, but the science part that followed had a lot of problems. If you're going to put forward a character as being a scientist then you're going to have to do a lot more deep research on the subject matter, as well as presenting the information in a way that shows us that you understand it (for instance, making sure genus and species are in italics, and that genus is capitalized and species is lower case). 

I think the story has reasonable bones, and I was interested in where it might be going, but I think this chapter will need a great deal of cleaning. Edits are what make the story though, so keep at it!

3 hours ago, Asmodemon said:

The switch from first person, to third person (kind of) and then back to first person was a little confusing and jarring to me, since there was no context for it.

Agree completely

3 hours ago, Asmodemon said:

By the end of it I don’t know much about A. and I don’t really have a reason to care yet.

Yes, this. Too many names, not any investment for any of them.

3 hours ago, Asmodemon said:

Honestly, with the transitions this chapter goes through, I’m not sure what the promise is.

Same here. I think maybe you're promising...an archeological adventure? My gut has me worried you're promising some evolutionary revelation regarding Jewish heritage and I am not excited about that. 

3 hours ago, Asmodemon said:

so by the end of the chapter there are four named characters but I have no idea what any of them look like. 

This is a good point. I was so upset about the science that I didn't realize I had no idea what these kids looked like until I read this comment. 

 

As I go

- that first sentence, and the whole first paragraph, is bogged down with adjectives. Try limiting yourself to one per sentence until you get a better feel for how to use them

- I don't understand this 'I said, no Driz said' thing. What is going on?

- Not a fan of the super heavy male gaze in this first page

- Wait, Driz is our narrator? I'm so confused right now

- page two: what tense are we in? I think we're bopping between present and past. You'll need to pick a tense, and a 'person', for this to begin to make sense

- end of page two: Driz isn't Driz and I have no idea who is who or what is going on. If this were a book in a bookstore, I'd put it back and go read something else at this point. 

- page four: so... they're playing D&D? That should be a apparent a lot earlier

- page five: I think science is pretty set on neanderthals being their own species, not an 'ethnicity'

- page six: this science doesn't shake out. If this person is writing a thesis, then they should know that if the species name is different, then it's a different species. Race is a social construct. The line even different species of... makes no sense, because the character is indeed talking about different species. If we have Homo erectus and Homo sapien, these are different species (note the same genus, but different species name). The change in species name has nothing to do with race or ethnicity or any of these variant words we use to describe the way phenotypes show themselves. Also note - species is never capitalized, but genus always is.

- wait... the line about genetic mixing and culling is... not how this works. That's not evolution works at all. Homo sapiens have been the only humanoids on this planet for a very long time. If you want the science in this to sound legit, you'll need to do more reading

- page six: If you're going to do anything with a lost tribe of Israel, I'm going to have a lot of comments. Just heads up on that.

[toomsta]

Welcome!

Overall

Look this needs a lot of work, but don't be discouraged. I can see the effort you have put in, and I can see what you're trying to do, it's just all in the execution. Something that you're only going to get good at if you keep trying. Just like the rest of us. I think the concept is fine, just fine, but work on the things folks have raised here, it's going to make it much better.

Notes as I go:

- There's some unnecessarily flowery language - don't worry I do the same thing. Like the very first sentence. Too many adjectives, and confusing ones, not ones that paint a vivid picture. I suggest reading your favourite authors in detail to see how they deal with such things.

- "Lusty curves" ... no, don't do this... But don't worry too much, everyone chided me for making very bad fat jokes and being a tad racist.

- So the narrator talks about himself in the third person? What the? 

- "Dude"? Language needs to suit the tone of the story, and this doesn't feel like the right tone for "Dude". That and modern language often doesn't work in this kind of fantasy setting.

- The reveal they are playing D&D doesn't work. It's confusing in terms of voice, tone, and perspective. I suggest you commit 100% to the fantasy up front, then have a cut off point where it's clear we're in reality. Think the beginning of Toy Story 3.

- I don't mind the banter between the friends, but it needs work, just a tad messy. Need some work on what's actually going on, who these people are, and what their relationship is, then the banter will feel much better.

- If you're going to do science, genetics etc, you need to get it right - or establish that this is fantasy and you're making up the rules. Otherwise, I'd rethink the entire science angle.

[Mandamon]

Welcome to RE!

So, I think the others have pretty much covered everything I had problems with. (Thanks @Asmodemon, and long time no see, @krystalynn03!)

To sum up: I was very confused about the tabletop/computer gaming, then caught on, then was annoyed at the POV change, then saw this was going in an archaeological revelation direction with what I assume is maybe DND races in history? However, by that point I was mostly checked out because of the change between settings, the multiple characters with no description, and lots of talking heads in a white room.

I'm guessing this is going to be some adventure where the chars learn that orcs and elves and such were/are real, which was the reason for starting with an RPG setting. The idea has potential, though it's been done before, and I think it could be started a lot smoother with more character building.

I also picked up that a lot of the science at the end was rather suspect, with some theories that have been pretty thoroughly disproved, but I'll leave that stuff up to @kais.

 

Notes while reading:

pg 1: "I said. I mean D. said"
--this pops me out of the story. Switching from 1st to 3rd POV doesn't really work in this isolated case.
--Also, the elf lady's name bears a strong resemblance to a famous drow...

pg 2: You manage to start the paragraph in first person and end it in third. I see what you're doing, but it makes my brain hurt.

pg 4: Wait--Al's on Sam's computer, but wants to hide the evidence, then Sam shows up. Wouldn't he suspect Al is on his computer?

pg 7: "antidelusionals from Niflheim"
--lol

pg 8: I missed the scene transition from in game to out until I read it a second time.

[Chuck Hossenlopp]

Thanks for all the good solid reactions. All of you are ringing the same bells. I hear all of you loud and clear.

This opening has been a problem for me since day one. I really think that a fake out imaginary opening only works in a visual medium, where the veil is lifted in a way more obvious and succinct way. (Toy Story2&3, Kung Fu Panda, probably some non-animated examples...)

The thing is, it does what I need it to do (clumsily). Wisecracking college kids get invited on an archeological dig that dumps them into  a bunch of problems involving monsters and magic.

I've left it as is for so long because not worrying about it helped me get the rest of the novel done. I'm sure that the smart thing to do would be to would be to start with the dig site.

I'm planning on workshopping the rest of the book here with all of you, and then coming up with a better opener after you've seen all of that.

[krystalynn03]

Hey Chuck,

I agree with you about visual medium. Another thought I had while reading was that I felt like I was reading a screenplay more than a narrative. I think your DND thing can be used as a framing device; it just has to be implemented differently. Please keep working and submitting!

 

(Also, hi @Mandamon!)

Edited January 16, 2018 by krystalynn03

[industrialistDragon]

Hello and welcome (back) to Reading Excuses!

This seems like an interesting premise, and the modern language is easy to read, but some parts are confusing still and I'm still not sure the fake opener works. 

 

As I go:

 

-- I'm seeing a bunch of tense switches in this first chapter, and some of the word choice is sounding a bit overwrought to me for a modern novel...

-- I am wondering if the genderswapped oddly-colored elf mightn't be cutting things a bit fine to already-licensed material. An oddly-colored elf in generic fantasy settings isn't copyrightable, but the name worries me. 

-- Ah, I see. I like that the ruse didn't go on for very long. Coincidentally, I'm reading Melissa Scott's "Burning Bright" right now, and it also features an online rp-type game of sorts prominently throughout the novel. What Scott does with the names is for the first appearance of the rp-character, list the chara name, then a slash, then the player name. So like ElfWizard/John Smith. Then for the parts that are in-game, only the rp-chara name is used, and any reference to the player is the player name. It still took a bit of getting used to, but it let on right from the get-go that something was up with the scene. In addition to in-text clues, the story might need a visual marker like that to really point out to readers that this scene isn't "real." 

-- As an mmo gamer, I've never begrudged anyone a bio break, especially if they announced it before starting a mission or boss fight.... And, I'm kind of wondering where the women are in this guild? I don't think I've ever been in a guild/clan/dojo/whatever that didn't at least have one female player, and more than just a casual player, too...  

-- I'm having a hard time telling these characters apart, like, a really hard time. They all kind of sound like the dudebros I see in mapchat and immediately block just so I don't have to cringe at their chatter, so I'm not terribly invested in any of them, and especially the ones who complained about a biobreak.  

-- I'm not sure how well what i'm guessing is the premise-of-the-book speech actually works as a speech from a character.  It feels fairly info-dumping this early in the book, and somewhat random given the nature of the scene.  I do have guildies who pontificate like that, but their lectures usually at least start related to either the dungeon we're doing, or the topics we were yakking about beforehand. 

-- I'm... not sure that's how off-campus research trips actually work. You might want to ask @kais about her trips with her students into the rainforest every summer. This also seems shoehorned into the story so far. I don't know anything about these dudes and honestly, given their interactions over the game, I'd not have guessed they were very good friends, certainly not good enough to be willing to drop an entire semester's worth of classwork just to go rib a friend.

 

Overall

It's an interesting premise, but I had trouble telling who was speaking, and I'm not really sure the theme-of-the-book needs to be laid out that plainly and that obviously in the first couple pages of the book. 

To answer your question, i suppose this is setting up a boys-night-out adventure with these 3 (or four? i couldn't tell) guys wherein they discover It's All True and make snarky modern references while encountering fairytale-related modern fey and/or get transported to another world. I can't really say I'm looking forward to it, given what of these characters I've read so far, however. 

[kais]

2 hours ago, industrialistDragon said:

I'm... not sure that's how off-campus research trips actually work. You might want to ask @kais about her trips with her students into the rainforest every summer.

Truth. I would never take students I didn't know on a research trip. I despise taking any students on a research trip, and when I do, it is 99% for grunt labor. Students are a liability, first and foremost, and do little if any actual contributions to the work. Now, if the students in your work had gone several times before, that'd be different. The most useful students are the ones who have worked in my lab for a few years and been on the Amazon trips a few times. After about the third year they know the drill and can help corral others, but I'd never allow tagalongs, not even from my favorite students. 

[Mandamon]

3 hours ago, kais said:

I despise taking any students on a research trip, and when I do, it is 99% for grunt labor.

Lol. Minions!

[Robinski]

Hey Chuck, great to have you back with us. Consulting my extensive records, I see that you last submitted in September 2015!!

• I hope you don’t mind, but I've taken a bit of a liberty by pasting the text into a Word file so I could do line-by-line comments. I really hope these ore of some use, apologies if I've overstepped the mark. I’ll leave all the grammar and stuff in there and email it to you.
• Garg... – ROFL, LMAO
• I remember the story from two years ago almost instantly, and where it went in the couple of submission that we got (if my records are correct). I have one issue now that I'm pretty sure I had then without checking my previous comments. I find it hard to tell the characters apart, and I didn’t get the sense that Sam was not in the room, even though you tell us that. I think referring to ‘Sam’s voice’ might help. Is there an opportunity to describe the friends physically early on? Otherwise, it’s a lot of male voices chiming together, and hard to distinguish them. I know that is a real thing in a room full of blokes, but as a reader, I can’t see them, so I need help in some other way to distinguish them.
• Yeah, see, when they start talking about the email, I don’t have a good sense that Sam’s not in the room. I know that can be the reality of a good Sk*pe line, or whatever, but if I'm trying to picture the scene, I want some kind of reference point to know he’s not there physically.
• “White people are cavemen” – I come back to my description point. In the absence of physical description, I'm not sure quite how to read this, but it does suggestion that two of the group are not white. I would like positive confirmation of that by some ‘physical’ description very early, so I can distinguish them better in my head.
• The debate about the origins of man is moving pretty quickly, and is pretty specialised. I don’t think I'm following it much if at all. Having said that, I don’t know that I mind much, because what I am getting is a clear sense of these guys all being competent in their field. More competent than me, anyway, so that I will believe that they are competent when future discussions happen. That’s good, in my book, even if I don’t follow it fully, I'm willing to go with it.
• “I’m standing right next to you, Sam” – Yeah, see this kind of line really confuses me. Is it about the game characters? Because Sam is in Europe, right?
• Yeah, out in the hall, many male voices that I can’t tell apart from their dialogue or from a clear visual distinction between them. I don’t think it would take much to fix, or have fewer people speaking at the same time until we have enough cues to tell them apart. Their style of speech also should be different, I think. I know they are all students, but I would suggest some simple adjustments, like having one of them not use speech contractions, or have a lisp, something. That last one’s too extreme, I think, but you see what I mean.

I enjoyed this, but I have some complaints which, glancing at the other comments now, seem to be a common thread. I think all the fixes are pretty easy, if you go along with these being issues, of course   In terms of reading, I found it easy to skip through, the style dragged me in and the differentiation of the characters was the only real issue I had with style.

I really want to read much further into the story than we did before, I hope you're going to stick around, dude!! We need more ‘old’ people around here (cough).

Seriously though, do you have a complete draft? Is the book finished? Interested and hopeful that we’re going to get a good long run of submission from you!

<R>

[Rogueshar]

I haven't read any of the other critiques so I apologize if I repeat anything that has already been previously said. First I want to start off with aspects that I liked:
1) I liked the way that you started off with a role-playing game, it got me interested.
2) I like the voice of Al, I thought that was good.

Critiques:
1) It was hard to keep track of who was speaking when and who was who. Al is the narrator, Sam is on a dig in Germany. But the other characters I couldn't keep straight who they were and why they were important. More background might be necessary on them from Al's perspective.
2) I got interested in some of the anthropological things that were being said by the characters, and if I perceive them correctly they all have knowledge of anthropology and so that they are throwing around these terms are fine. But your regular reader including myself might not know of all the different species being thrown around and it will turn them off, it might be best if Al explains to the reader through his thoughts or background information what these different things are.
3) This is just slightly nit picky of me, but as a person who studies history I felt necessary to point it out. We have more than just a few centuries worth of written human records. Sumerians five thousand years ago began writing things down, numbers mostly, but they developed a written script. I don't mean to throw a loophole into anything you are trying to create in your story but I thought it was worth pointing out.

[Chuck Hossenlopp]

I know that the plausibility of these college kids getting shipped to Germany needs work. The problem is that it's a load bearing plot hook. It's necessary to get the McGuffin from here to there in chapter 3 so that chapter 4 can happen. The professor explains why he wants these four guys in chapter 2, so so I'd like to hear what @kais has to say about my excuse for having these guys included on the dig.

I did have descriptions of each character in an earlier draft, but it was all tell and no show. People playing online in separate rooms (and one on a separate tectonic plate) can't tug on their specific and unique tee shirt or fidget with their specific and unique hair.

Ah-Ha! Laptops in the living room! No more fake out. They're just playing, and Sam joins the game because no one answers the phone. Would that fix a lot?

Later in the story I feel like each of the guys has their own "limp and eyepatch." Since I have these characters firmly in my own imagination, they sound a lot different to me. Fresh eyeballs are valuable for sure.