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Abrasion


Leyrann

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A few days ago I had a discussion on Discord with some other people about Abrasion, and I figured it might be a good idea to just make a thread here to discuss it.

The thing that bugs me about Abrasion, is that it is said to "manipulate friction". However, friction, for the most part, comes from imperfections in surfaces. As Wikipedia puts it: "With the exception of atomic or molecular friction, dry friction generally arises from the interaction of surface features." So how, exactly, can you reduce friction? It's not something that comes from interactions of some kind between two surfaces, but it comes directly from imperfections in the surfaces being in each other's way.

The only answer that I can think of, is that surfaces influenced by Abrasion do not actually touch one another, just get very close to one another. As for how that works, I want to propose electromagnetic fields (and therefore electromagnetism) as the cause of this. On one hand, if both surfaces have the same electromagnetic charge, they resist one another, and tend to slip off one another (I think everyone has tried at some point in his or her childhood to get two repelling magnets to touch one another...). On the other hand, if they have different electromagnetic charges, they attract, and - seemingly - create a lot of friction.

So, what do people here think? Is this how Abrasion works, or does it not make sense, and is there a better explanation?

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Given that we're talking about a universe where you can literally change the nature of gravitational attraction for a single person or object without affecting anything around you, animate lifeless objects, alter the flow of time (where Brandon has admitted some handwaving to avoid redshift issues) and rewrite your entire personal history with magic, I think we can probably say with some confidence that Investituredidit when it comes to how Abrasion manipulates friction and trying to think too hard about the mechanics will only induce madness. xD

More specifically, it's probably stormlight creating a field around the affected area that alters the coefficient of friction to produce whatever result the surgebinder wants, without them having to actually know the underlying physics. Brandon's explained how Kalad's Phantoms are able to move along somewhat similar lines, with Breath acting as 'magical sinew' to let the things move.

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10 hours ago, Weltall said:

Given that we're talking about a universe where you can literally change the nature of gravitational attraction for a single person or object without affecting anything around you, animate lifeless objects, alter the flow of time (where Brandon has admitted some handwaving to avoid redshift issues) and rewrite your entire personal history with magic, I think we can probably say with some confidence that Investituredidit when it comes to how Abrasion manipulates friction and trying to think too hard about the mechanics will only induce madness. xD

More specifically, it's probably stormlight creating a field around the affected area that alters the coefficient of friction to produce whatever result the surgebinder wants, without them having to actually know the underlying physics. Brandon's explained how Kalad's Phantoms are able to move along somewhat similar lines, with Breath acting as 'magical sinew' to let the things move.

The problem with Abrasion is that, as I mentioned in the first post, friction doesn't depend just on the material, but also the structure and surface of the material. If you compare that with Gravitation, according to the Ars Arcanum a Lashing "revokes a spiritual bond with the planet" and redirects that bond. That is an explanation that simply works with how the Cosmere is built up. One could argue that the "spiritual bond with the planet" is actually the gravity from other atoms that every atom in your body 'feels', and that you simply change the direction of that gravity is 'felt' to a certain different direction. Or, a theory that better explains multiple Lashings, you remove the bond with the planet and create a new 'tug' of normal strength to another direction.

Either way, it's fully explainable with the base set of laws the Cosmere works on, and I think the same should be true for Abrasion, but it would be weird to assume that surfaces in the Cosmere would look differently than in our universe - that would introduce a lot more problems than it would solve regarding Abrasion.

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Personally I think it's more likely that a thin layer of stormlight is forming between both objects, producing a similar effect whereby the two surfaces aren't touching. Similar to when you oil something and it becomes slippery. 

I admit that this doesn't explain how it would increase friction. Perhaps though it's doing small full lashings, instead of fully sticking, just catching on the surface instead. 

Probably the best example in the book against the EM theory for abrasion is

OB Spoiler 

Spoiler

Near the end, when Lift is dodging soldiers. She describes it has their hands slipping off her clothes and hair. Now if hair was being charged, it would be flying around like crazy, as first, I would think that the force to keep the soldier hand away would be more than enough to push the hair away. Second, all the hair strands with like charge would repel each other into a giant cloud. The lack of any description of any sort 

 

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1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I admit that this doesn't explain how it would increase friction. Perhaps though it's doing small full lashings, instead of fully sticking, just catching on the surface instead. 

Wouldn't it just be Adhesion at that point though?

(OB)

Spoiler

Good point. On the other hand, we know that, in the cosmere, larger 'objects' that are typically seen as a single thing (like a rock, or hair) can typically be affected all at once. So maybe something like that is at work with the hair.

 

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40 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Wouldn't it just be Adhesion at that point though?

(OB)

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Good point. On the other hand, we know that, in the cosmere, larger 'objects' that are typically seen as a single thing (like a rock, or hair) can typically be affected all at once. So maybe something like that is at work with the hair.

 

That's exactly my point though.
 

Spoiler

If all the hair is uniformly charged with the same sign, then they would repel themselves into a giant cloud, as I said it should.

 

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2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Personally I think it's more likely that a thin layer of stormlight is forming between both objects, producing a similar effect whereby the two surfaces aren't touching. Similar to when you oil something and it becomes slippery. 

I admit that this doesn't explain how it would increase friction. Perhaps though it's doing small full lashings, instead of fully sticking, just catching on the surface instead. 

I think this might be the best answer.  Whenever it's used to make something slippery, it just coats that surface in a perfectly smooth layer of stormlight.  Similarly, if Abrasion can increase friction, perhaps it just coats the surface in an incredibly rough layer of stormlight.

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1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That's exactly my point though.
 

  Hide contents

If all the hair is uniformly charged with the same sign, then they would repel themselves into a giant cloud, as I said it should.

 

Yeah, but if it's just Adhesion, then why is it a seperate Surge?

Spoiler

I know. I just figured that maybe it would consider itself one entity that as a whole has the charge, rather than every hair having the charge.

 

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43 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Yeah, but if it's just Adhesion, then why is it a seperate Surge?

  Hide contents

I know. I just figured that maybe it would consider itself one entity that as a whole has the charge, rather than every hair having the charge.

 

My counter point isn't adhesion.

Spoiler

That doesn't make sense though? How does that even work, the entire entity having a charge? The point is that if you accumulate a charge in someone, for example, with a Van de Graff generator, their hair starts to stand up. Something similar should've happened with her, according to your model.

Forget what I said about adhesion, Master_Moridin gave a better explanation for how it would increase friction.

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9 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Either way, it's fully explainable with the base set of laws the Cosmere works on, and I think the same should be true for Abrasion, but it would be weird to assume that surfaces in the Cosmere would look differently than in our universe - that would introduce a lot more problems than it would solve regarding Abrasion.

I don't think surfaces have to look differently at all, I think the storm light is being used as a magical cushion of lubricant to decrease the effective coeffecient of friction of a given system to 0, here's a diagram of what I mean:

Abrasion_Slicked.png.6032fc281ad41454b5de851d8427f9f3.png

The top rough surfaced object would experience a high coeffecient of friction moving across the rough ground.

The bottom, magically slicked surface would be riding a finite cushion of magically friction-less investiture, the texture of the object in motion and the ground it was moving across would be irrelevant, because of the lubricating layer of the slick version of the surge of abrasion.

I think how abrasion is increased is that a line of force of investiture is projected out by the Radiant, and like a transverse fault line in plate tectonics, the two surfaces on the opposite sides of this line of investiture move in opposite directions, while simultaneously the abrasion surge squeezes both sides towards this transverse fault line, producing heat from abrasion.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I don't think surfaces have to look differently at all, I think the storm light is being used as a magical cushion of lubricant to decrease the effective coeffecient of friction of a given system to 0, here's a diagram of what I mean:

Abrasion_Slicked.png.6032fc281ad41454b5de851d8427f9f3.png

The top rough surfaced object would experience a high coeffecient of friction moving across the rough ground.

The bottom, magically slicked surface would be riding a finite cushion of magically friction-less investiture, the texture of the object in motion and the ground it was moving across would be irrelevant, because of the lubricating layer of the slick version of the surge of abrasion.

Nice picture. If we also take it as stormlight being able to enumerate different roughness of surfaces, then that gives different degrees of friction reduction, as well as increasing friction.

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28 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Nice picture. If we also take it as stormlight being able to enumerate different roughness of surfaces, then that gives different degrees of friction reduction, as well as increasing friction.

But we also have to account for how (OB spoiler):

Spoiler

Malata is able to etch the surface of the wooden table using abrasion. She touches the table with her palm and the abrasion wrought etchings spread out from her palm in a complex pattern. She is not pushing something against the table other than investiture in the form of the abrasion surge, so I think that the transverse fault line explanation is probably a pretty good one, that allows investiture to flow along a cognitive channel, and also could explain how abrasion is used to do work. The more pressure applied perpendicularly to the transverse fault line, the greater the friction and the more violent the combustion.

 

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

But we also have to account for how (OB spoiler):

  Hide contents

Malata is able to etch the surface of the wooden table using abrasion. She touches the table with her palm and the abrasion wrought etchings spread out from her palm in a complex pattern. She is not pushing something against the table other than investiture in the form of the abrasion surge, so I think that the transverse fault line explanation is probably a pretty good one, that allows investiture to flow along a cognitive channel, and also could explain how abrasion is used to do work. The more pressure applied perpendicularly to the transverse fault line, the greater the friction and the more violent the combustion.

 

Spoiler

She used Division. 

 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

She used Division. 

You're totally right. Your idea about using the surge to increase the friction of the system is probably how it works.

 

EDITED

But if the Division surge causes a fault line, then the abrasion surge could be used to increase the friction between the divided fault line, causing combustion.

Just had some additional ideas about how the abrasion surge could be used:

  1. Similarly to the adhesion surge, if it could be painted across a surface, anyone running into this incredibly abrasive surface would most likely trip. The forward momentum of their body combined with their feet grinding against the more abrasive ground would probably pitch them forward.
  2. The Dustbringer could coat their hands with the abrasive surge, and swiping an opponent with a flat palmed strike, could cause the portion of the opponent thusly swiped to catch on fire (it would have to be flammable, it was soft non flammable flesh it would probably have unfortunate consequences for the flesh). Malata could slap someone's face off.

 

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Clarification, and possible additional uses for abrasion surge.
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9 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I don't think surfaces have to look differently at all, I think the storm light is being used as a magical cushion of lubricant to decrease the effective coeffecient of friction of a given system to 0, here's a diagram of what I mean:

Abrasion_Slicked.png.6032fc281ad41454b5de851d8427f9f3.png

The top rough surfaced object would experience a high coeffecient of friction moving across the rough ground.

The bottom, magically slicked surface would be riding a finite cushion of magically friction-less investiture, the texture of the object in motion and the ground it was moving across would be irrelevant, because of the lubricating layer of the slick version of the surge of abrasion.

I think how abrasion is increased is that a line of force of investiture is projected out by the Radiant, and like a transverse fault line in plate tectonics, the two surfaces on the opposite sides of this line of investiture move in opposite directions, while simultaneously the abrasion surge squeezes both sides towards this transverse fault line, producing heat from abrasion.

I like that explanation as well. Maybe someone should ask Brandon, see if he's willing to answer it.

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On 1/14/2018 at 5:20 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

You're totally right. Your idea about using the surge to increase the friction of the system is probably how it works.

 

EDITED

But if the Division surge causes a fault line, then the abrasion surge could be used to increase the friction between the divided fault line, causing combustion.

Just had some additional ideas about how the abrasion surge could be used:

  1. Similarly to the adhesion surge, if it could be painted across a surface, anyone running into this incredibly abrasive surface would most likely trip. The forward momentum of their body combined with their feet grinding against the more abrasive ground would probably pitch them forward.
  2. The Dustbringer could coat their hands with the abrasive surge, and swiping an opponent with a flat palmed strike, could cause the portion of the opponent thusly swiped to catch on fire (it would have to be flammable, it was soft non flammable flesh it would probably have unfortunate consequences for the flesh). Malata could slap someone's face off.

 

I think Division causes fire somehow, as a standard part of its usage.

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1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I think Division causes fire somehow, as a standard part of its usage.

How I imagine the division surge working is a lot like the super charged knife handed martial artist Rei from Fist of the North Star (animated gif spoilered below, because, well, it's from Fist of the North Star. Don't look at the spoilered content if you have a problem with cartoon violence):

Spoiler

tumblr_nj3r08TO4u1u48d4no2_r1_500.gif

I think the ability to divide, combined with the ability to increase abrasion is what allows the Dustrbringers to set things on fire. Dustbringers are totally the Beavis and Butthead order of Knights Radiant. Their spren like to break things and they set stuff on fire. Total teenagers.

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59 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

How I imagine the division surge working is a lot like the super charged knife handed martial artist Rei from Fist of the North Star (animated gif spoilered below, because, well, it's from Fist of the North Star. Don't look at the spoilered content if you have a problem with cartoon violence):

  Reveal hidden contents

tumblr_nj3r08TO4u1u48d4no2_r1_500.gif

I think the ability to divide, combined with the ability to increase abrasion is what allows the Dustrbringers to set things on fire. Dustbringers are totally the Beavis and Butthead order of Knights Radiant. Their spren like to break things and they set stuff on fire. Total teenagers.

Spoiler

If it's using abrasion though, how did Amaram create trails of fire in the air. 

 

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Speaking of Abrasion, does anyone else think it can be used to increase friction as well, or is that to similar to Adhesion? Not sure off the top off my head how increasing friction would be useful, except to stop fast when sliding or to walk on ice, but Brandon probably has ideas if its possible. 

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4 hours ago, MPHRD said:

Speaking of Abrasion, does anyone else think it can be used to increase friction as well, or is that to similar to Adhesion? Not sure off the top off my head how increasing friction would be useful, except to stop fast when sliding or to walk on ice, but Brandon probably has ideas if its possible. 

As far as I am aware that's part of Abrasion.

Also, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine something that does bother me about your "stormlight coating" explanation is that surfaces affected by Abrasion don't actually glow, like they do with Adhesion or Gravitation (?).

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@Leyrann that is somewhat problematic, but not all manifestations of surges cause items affected to glow with stormlight.

The bright swathes of stormlight that Kaladin paints on the ground with his foot when he creates a strip of adhesion in the Chasms during spear training definitely visually manifests. Things lashed visually leak stormlight until the lashing runs out. Dalinar's use of the tension surge to knit back together the Temple of Battar in Thaylen city showed visible stormlight (the cracks between the blocks were glowing with stormlight before they fused back together).

Shallan's illusions don't glow though, so this might be proof of your electromagnetic repulsion theory, in that stormlight is used to create propagating waves of energy and these waves are invisible. Or it could be that the actual physical surfaces of the objects subject to the abrasion slicking surge transform to a perfectly smooth surface (the ground it would be a temporary transformation while the surge charged object is gliding over the surface).

I don't really like either of those explanations though, the electromagnetic repulsion theory does the best job of explaining the phenomenon but it's just not abrasion. The magical temporary transformation explanation seems too convoluted and energy intensive, while the surge in practice seems to be an efficient surge (items slicked remain more or less slicked, until the surge is dismissed).

I do think the lack of visible stormlight for slicked abrasion is the death knell of the magical cushion of investiture though, so that's progress.

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On 16.1.2018 at 4:42 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I do think the lack of visible stormlight for slicked abrasion is the death knell of the magical cushion of investiture though, so that's progress.

Nonsense! Don't give up so easily! :D

By realism, you'd need some serious E = mc^2 to give something a significant amount of gravity, but consider how much mass-gravity is in a bottle of lubricant. Not much, despite its ability to reduce your friction. Furthermore, Gravitation and Illumination are both surges that manage 1/r^2 fundamental forces, and so should radiate at ranges that electromagnetic/gravitational radiation does - and be visible from afar. Not so with the very close-range Abrasion.

Imo, the cushion theory is the most physical explanation. Second up would be that the outer surface becomes ethereal and any abrasive surface simply passes through the ridges. That's problematic with Lift climbing ship walls and such - but I guess we could blame Wyndle for that, if she can't boost her friction.

Edited by Tobbzn
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1 hour ago, Tobbzn said:

Imo, the cushion theory is the most physical explanation. Second up would be that the outer surface becomes ethereal and any abrasive surface simply passes through the ridges. That's problematic with Lift climbing ship walls and such - but I guess we could blame Wyndle for that, if she can't boost her friction.

I appreciate the support, but I think the one item that makes the investiture cushion theory of slicked abrasion a lost cause is how the King's Drop was slicked by the Fused during the battle of Thaylen city. Szeth notes that the Fused is trying to trick him by slicking the King's Drop, and this would imply that there is no visible manifestation of stormlight on the Drop. Szeth had previously practiced with the Edgedancer Honor blade, so he had a good idea that it was possible to invisibly make something slicker.

Looking at this more closely, the slickness was applied to a large perfect gem in such a fashion that it was not visibly apparent, and further, the Fused was able to bypass the magical reduced abrasion of the Drop and hold onto it like a football. This suggests two things:

  1. It's not a magical phase transition to the thing that is slicked, or if it is a magical phase transition it is cancelled out upon contact with a similarly phased substance (the hands of the Fused). Like interference waves, overlayed, producing a flat wave form.
  2. Maybe the underlying principle at work is closer to Light weaving, which unlike adhesion, tension and gravitation, can be applied to external objects without visible manifestations of stormlight. Most likely this would be something similar to @Leyrann's electromagnetic repulsive field theory of abrasion at work.

There's also the fact that once Szeth retrieves the drop with Lift's cloak, it is still magically slick. So direct physical contact by the user of the abrasion surge does not need to be maintained to affect the slickness of an external object.

I think the most likely is option 1, and like @Tobbzn mentioned, the surface becomes ethereal (modulating waves) and when the Fused is grabbing the King's Drop, the surface of their hands are likewise ethereal, but that these two series of modulating waveforms nullify each other and the result is that their is a field of normal abrasiveness where the Fused hands are in contact with the slicked Honor's Drop.

One test of this postulate would be if one of the abrasion using Fused were to grab Lift while she had slicked herself to be un-grabbable. If the Fused could grab her while she was slicked, we would know that it wasn't a function of the user of the abrasion being unaffected by an object that they have personally reduced the abrasion of, and further it would lend more credence to abrasion being a possible self cancelling surge.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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9 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Looking at this more closely, the slickness was applied to a large perfect gem in such a fashion that it was not visibly apparent,

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6389

Quote

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

I don't think the King's Drop is necessarily theoretically flawless - after all, when Dalinar carried it, had the slickness not dissipated? (I'm asking, I'm at work and can't quite recall. And for that matter, wouldn't the King's Drop be infused with Stormlight upon Dalinar's ascension? Shouldn't it be glowing? Hmm.)

Consider that Gravitation and Adhesion (I don't remember Tension glowing, are you sure about that?) usually features enhancing a force, whereas Abrasive slickness is reducing a force. Now, in real physics with conservation of energy you'd think the energy would be likely to be disposed of terms of light, more so for abrasion than the other ones, but here I think it's a matter of "opening" or "plugging" a connection to the spiritual realm. Gravitation and Adhesion glows because they've opened connection wider, abrasion does not because it diminishes the property. I'm not convinced there's that much reason to expect abrasion-slickness to give off light for that reason. I wouldn't expect Division to give off anything but chemically induced light, either.

Unless Brandon is reading into something with gravitational potentials being considered "negative" energy wells... but now I'm starting to ramble.

Of course, it is also possible that a theoretical flawlessly cut gem is inherently slick, and the only reason anyone can hold it is because of dirt and impurities on the surface rather than in the surface, and that the impurities held the abrasive infusion.

Finally, remember that we don't know the limitations of Voidbinding. Perhaps they have some limited access to adhesion to counteract the abrasion? It would be difficult to invest something already invested with another form of power, which explains how the might lose it in spite of the adhesion.

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