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[OB] Moash's dagger


kaladar

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16 hours ago, Ishar said:

A slightly less obvious, but considerably more vital part is that now the Oathpact can no longer hold the voidbringers back because Moash could simply break it every time and unleash them again.

I believe, with the advent of the Everstorm, the Oathpact is no longer useful, as the Fused just get reincarnated the next time the storm passes through.  

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33 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I believe, with the advent of the Everstorm, the Oathpact is no longer useful, as the Fused just get reincarnated the next time the storm passes through.  

Depends on if they get sent back to Braize like normal and shortcut back via the Everstorm, or if they get sent directly to the Everstorm when they die. Odium has to have a reason for killing the Heralds in the way he is, and this seems like as good a reason as any.

It's yet another case of something that many of us believe to be true, but can't actually prove either way.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2018-03-27 at 1:55 PM, RShara said:

 

Isn’t that simply because the heralds haven’t gone back to Braize themselves to renew the oathpact? I thought that was what happened in all the desolation’s until the heralds were ready to return.

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17 minutes ago, Hufdud said:

Isn’t that simply because the heralds haven’t gone back to Braize themselves to renew the oathpact? I thought that was what happened in all the desolation’s until the heralds were ready to return.

No, it seems that previously when a Fused died during a Desolation. it was sent to Braize. Then the Heralds returned to Braize at the end of the Desolation to keep them there. There was also no Everstorm, it seems, in previous Desolations.

 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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The whole trailing black smoke and leaving blackened wounds bit has me thinking of other Cosmere weapons that leave blackened wounds and trail smoke.  

 

Please note, I am not saying that Vyre's dagger is another Nightblood.  But we now have three different swords that do some really weird crem.  Nightblood blackens its user and trails smoke.  I think he also left blackened wounds on the corpses Vasher had to pull him out of in Warbreaker.  Hard to tell nowadays, as he leaves no corpses.  Azure's blade drains the colour from its victims, does not take a spren form in Shadesmar, and if I remember correctly - it does something to the eyes as well, but not what shardblades do.  And now finally, Vyre's dagger has a gem cap on it.  It did not trail smoke before getting its stab on, and has no voice of its own that we have seen so far.  But it left blackened wounds and trailed smoke, and the gem started to glow.

 

Am I the only one who is getting extremely worried about the number of Nightblood-like WMDs showing up on screen, cause this is getting scary.  Especially if Vyre's dagger is a Nightblood analog created by a Shard, with a shard's expanded knowledge and power, to not have any of the design flaws Nightblood has.  And, we have not seen Nightblood's creation, but we do know that it was a while before he was given a scabbard of Aluminum.  So it is possible that before he got one, it may not have been needed - that it became necessary to contain him as his power grew with each soul he consumed.  And Vyre's dagger may do the same.

 

Not that I am saying they are the same.  Just that there are some extremely worrisome parallels...

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I thought that is similar to Dalinar trapping the Thrill. I think there was a reason that it had to be a sapphire. It is the stone associated with Windrunners. I think they just confined his soul into the sapphire. Just like a ruby was needed to trap the Thrill, and only a ruby. On this topic, ruby is associated the Dustbringers, and Herald Chanarach. So the Thrill, if bonded, would grant the similar Voidbinding surges of Division and Abrasion.

Spoiler

Ars_arcanum_photoshopped.jpg.7f7604832a165d8827d624e48037065c.jpg

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

[Mistborn]

 

Spoiler

I'm pretty certain that the dagger is Raysium. All allomantic metals have a feruchemical and hemalurgic use, and the god metals all have their own use as well. I've proposed in the past that the Honorblades were an alloy of Tanavastium, and/or (whatever Cultivation's name is)ium, as they grant control over the Surges. I'm also convinced that the alloys of Lerasium grant singular allomancy, so if I were to ingest two varieties, lets say a gold and a zinc alloy of the original, I would be an augur as well as a Rioter. The dagger could be an alloy of Raysium tuned to Windrunners and/or Jezrien.

 

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On 1/9/2018 at 8:10 AM, kaladar said:

I think the dagger Moash uses does not 'kill' the herald so much as it somehow traps their soul (identity?) inside the gem on the hilt.

This is likely true. We have perfect parallelism: 1 herald and 1 unmade trapped in a gem. I wonder if we will get a hostage situation where Odium says he will give us a herald(s) in exchange for the Thrill. 

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19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

This is likely true. We have perfect parallelism: 1 herald and 1 unmade trapped in a gem. I wonder if we will get a hostage situation where Odium says he will give us a herald(s) in exchange for the Thrill. 

I doubt it. Odium needs to remove the Heralds to escape. The Thrill is just a mindless tool. Useful for sure, but I doubt Odium would risk his potential freedom for it.

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17 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I would like to see Kaladin take that dagger and Blade and become a quasi-Herald. 

But why would you want to see Kaladin suffer so?

I mean, he already has the same Surgebinding powers that Jezrien did but he's more efficient with his Stormlight and his healing is better, his Blade can talk back to him, change form to whatever he needs and offer unwanted romantic advice and he gets Squires which the Heralds didn't. Assuming you could take whatever the dagger stole from Jezrien, all it would seem to do for Kaladin would be to grant him a particularly sucky form of immortality that's already broken nine of the Heralds (who presumably started out with the best intentions) and drove the tenth quite insane.

Now, assuming you could give Jezrien's connection to the Oathpact to someone via that dagger, I could maybe see it used in theory to buy Roshar time between halves of the story, with new quasi-Heralds keeping the Fused from returning for a time. However, I'm not really sure that would be a good idea from a writing perspective since it would suggest a degree of plot recycling between halves.

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17 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I would like to see Kaladin take that dagger and Blade and become a quasi-Herald. 

I would also like to see Shallan or Kaladin faced with the moral decision of whether or not to beome a New Herald and take up the Oathpact, all the while knowing how horrible such a fate truly is. 

If Ash asked Shallan, would Shallan agree? 

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5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

If Ash asked Shallan, would Shallan agree? 

Hopefully. I'd love to get rid of Shallan for a while. I honestly have a feeling Moash is going to redeem himself and temporarily uphold the Oathpact alone until Era2.

Edited by Fatikis
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On 5/9/2018 at 9:59 AM, Thunderclast said:

[Mistborn]

 

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I'm pretty certain that the dagger is Raysium. All allomantic metals have a feruchemical and hemalurgic use, and the god metals all have their own use as well. I've proposed in the past that the Honorblades were an alloy of Tanavastium, and/or (whatever Cultivation's name is)ium, as they grant control over the Surges. I'm also convinced that the alloys of Lerasium grant singular allomancy, so if I were to ingest two varieties, lets say a gold and a zinc alloy of the original, I would be an augur as well as a Rioter. The dagger could be an alloy of Raysium tuned to Windrunners and/or Jezrien.

 

Is it possible that the dagger is a Hemalurgic spike made from Raysium or some other god metal?

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15 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

If Kaladin did take the dagger, would he have the full power of a Herald? Does that include unlimited stormlight? 

The Heralds don't have unlimited Stormlight, what they had was drawing Investiture directly from Honor without needing Stormlight itself. Kind of like in Mistborn, how Preservation/Harmony can give somone power through the mists. Since Honor is splintered, there's no way for the Heralds or anyone using the Honorblades to draw on this source of Investiture any more.

12 hours ago, Ishar said:

Is it possible that the dagger is a Hemalurgic spike made from Raysium or some other god metal?

Some philosophers in-universe would apparently say so but Brandon says no, the dagger is using similar fundamentals as hemalurgy but the dagger isn't a spike per se. My guess is that the dagger can steal things similar to hemalurgy but isn't meant to grant them to a recipient; in this case either stealing all of Jezrien's soul or just the bit that's relevant to the Oathpact.

And yeah, while it's not been confirmed it seems extremely likely that the dagger was made from Odium's godmetal. It's an unfamiliar metal to Moash, it doesn't look like anything immediately identifiable to us, it's obviously got special properites and it's a color that's already been associated with Odium in the book so... it's almost certainly meant to be 'Raysium' or whatever it ends up being called.

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7 hours ago, Weltall said:

The Heralds don't have unlimited Stormlight, what they had was drawing Investiture directly from Honor without needing Stormlight itself.

That is a fine point you are making, but the Shard is still there. It is Tanavast (the vessel) that's dead. Could this affect the Heralds? Possibly, but it didn't appear to slow down Nale. 

Now, if the dagger steals things, does that mean that the person holding the dagger can access those powers? That is also unclear. But why give it to Moash if it didn't? The only thing I can be completely dogmatic about here, is that it is going to lead to some interesting complications in the next book. 

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43 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

That is a fine point you are making, but the Shard is still there. It is Tanavast (the vessel) that's dead. Could this affect the Heralds? Possibly, but it didn't appear to slow down Nale. 

Now, if the dagger steals things, does that mean that the person holding the dagger can access those powers? That is also unclear. But why give it to Moash if it didn't? The only thing I can be completely dogmatic about here, is that it is going to lead to some interesting complications in the next book. 

Bearing in mind that Nale has a Nahel Bond and thus can use Stormlight at whatever its peak efficiency is (given that he's sworn the Fifth Ideal) he's not a very good example for the Heralds using their Honorblades in the present day. We know from Szeth's example that an ordinary person using an Honorblade definitely requires Stormlight and is less efficient than even a Radiant who hasn't finished swearing their Ideals. There's currently no reason to believe that even if Moash could absorb the relevant bit of Jezrien's spiritweb that it would give him unlimited Surgebinding; we see that he still needs to take Stormlight from a sphere when he Lashes himself at the end of the book.

But yeah, I'm sure that there's going to be some interesting interplay at work in the next book, one way or another.

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I think I may have said this already, but you are talking about the spirit web being stolen again which almost definitely has to have some practical purpose. My previous idea of it preventing the oath pact from continuing has already been shot down, and this newer idea of unlimited Stormlight as well, but what if it allows Moash to return should he die. I also feel like this may end up being somewhat similar to what happened to Amaram. He swallowed a gemstone with a spren or something in it and gained powers. What if Moash or someone can do the same with the gemstone on the dagger? It would in theory give Moash the ability to return should he die in the fashion of the heralds, which would probably be useful.

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3 hours ago, Ishar said:

I think I may have said this already, but you are talking about the spirit web being stolen again which almost definitely has to have some practical purpose. My previous idea of it preventing the oath pact from continuing has already been shot down, and this newer idea of unlimited Stormlight as well, but what if it allows Moash to return should he die. I also feel like this may end up being somewhat similar to what happened to Amaram. He swallowed a gemstone with a spren or something in it and gained powers. What if Moash or someone can do the same with the gemstone on the dagger? It would in theory give Moash the ability to return should he die in the fashion of the heralds, which would probably be useful.

I think it's far more ominous and significant that Moash/Vrye dispatched the Herald with the Odious knife prior to receiving that Herald's Honorblade. I don't think this is an accidental symmetry, but what this portends I think we'll have to RAFO.

Is Vrye a foolproof escape clause to the Oathpact? Is he a stop gap measure to ensure the continuation of the Desolation if the Everstorm should fail? Is he an anti-herald, a lesser version of Odium's champion tasked with killing all of Honor's old guard of Heralds for an as of yet unexplained purpose? Or is he Odium's champion, proving himself through the ambivalent act of killing and then becoming a god?

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
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