kaladar Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 I think the dagger Moash uses does not 'kill' the herald so much as it somehow traps their soul (identity?) inside the gem on the hilt. From the book: Quote "It's taking me!" the man screamed, then looked down at the knife in Moash's hand. "What is that?" ... When Moash pulled the yellow-white knife free, it trailed dark smoke and left a blackened wound. The large sapphire at the pommel took on a subdued glow. Was it done this way to keep the current state of the Oathpact intact? The other Heralds POV we get mentions they sense the other's loss Does this means that they could somehow be freed from the gem later, rescuing/restoring them? Naturally, if any of this is true, I think it's possible we may see up to an additional 9 versions of such daggers with the appropriate gemstone on the hilt. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Yeah, it's been discussed and my own take (and I've seen others thinking the same) is that the dagger probably ripped out from Jezrien's spiritweb whatever it is that bound him to the Oathpact and trapped it in the gemstone. Possibly it actually took his entire soul but that's not necessary, so long as it got the right bit, Jezrien could be permanently killed by taking away whatever it is that allowed him to become a constantly reincarnating Cognitive Shadow. Thus, his death weakens the Oathpact because he doesn't go back to Braize when killed and is permanently removed from the equation, and the other Heralds feel it because they're bound together by the Oathpact so whatever was ripped out of Jezrien would have been felt by all of them. If the dagger just took that part of Jezrien's soul that directly relates to the Oathpact, I'm not sure what would happen if you were to break the gemstone. If it took his entire soul, he might still be 'alive' and breaking the stone would send his Cognitive Shadow to Braize which would perpetuate the Oathpact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatikis Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 Anyone else think this looked a little like hemalurgy? A form of hemalurgy that is incorporating the focus of Roshar? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Fatikis said: Anyone else think this looked a little like hemalurgy? A form of hemalurgy that is incorporating the focus of Roshar? Oh. This again. Quote kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW] Have we seen any evidence of Hemalurgy on Roshar? And, as sort of an addendum, given the end of Oathbringer, was what happened to Jezrien Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] There are certain cosmere philosophers that would count it. I would divide it as two separate things that are using similar fundamentals... I wouldn't call it myself, but there are people who would disagree with me in-world. Have we seen evidence? I would say no evidence that is easily-- easy to pick out. kalamitous_emoashions [PENDING REVIEW] But it's there? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, there are people with Hemalurgy who have been to Roshar. I'm pretty sure they've been on-screen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatikis Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Oh. This again. Your tone seems unnecessary. So what we are seeing is very very similar to Hemalurgy which might be able to help us determine what has actually happened here. Edited January 23, 2018 by Fatikis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said: Oh. This again. Let's be nice. Fatikis is new and might not realize that we over-theorize EVERYTHING @Fatikis, here is a good thread to get you started. There are various other theories floating around that you can find with the Search on the top right corner. Welcome to the 17th Shard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted January 23, 2018 Report Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Fatikis said: Your tone seems unnecessary. Just now, RShara said: Let's be nice. Sleepy Me will probably apologize once he's fully woken up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Posted January 24, 2018 Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Whos honorblade does Tarravangian have that he gave to Odium? Could the dagger be Jezrien's honorblade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted January 24, 2018 Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Sorry, what? Taravangian stole Jezrien's Honorblade from Bridge 4 and gave it to Odium who gave it to Moash/Vyre after he killed Jezrien. Jezrien was killed with a dagger, not a sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Posted January 24, 2018 Report Share Posted January 24, 2018 Thats right. Sorry read the book when i came out and have read a few other books since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersmith Posted March 13, 2018 Report Share Posted March 13, 2018 On 1/24/2018 at 0:02 AM, RShara said: Sorry, what? Taravangian stole Jezrien's Honorblade from Bridge 4 and gave it to Odium who gave it to Moash/Vyre after he killed Jezrien. Jezrien was killed with a dagger, not a sword. Can't honorblades change size and shape or is that just alive spren swords? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 13, 2018 Report Share Posted March 13, 2018 1 minute ago, supersmith said: Can't honorblades change size and shape or is that just alive spren swords? Unknown, but I think it's likely they can change a little bit. Dead Shardblades can change a little, live ones can change a lot. So it wouldn't surprise me if Honorblades could change somewhat as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersmith Posted March 13, 2018 Report Share Posted March 13, 2018 1 minute ago, RShara said: Unknown, but I think it's likely they can change a little bit. Dead Shardblades can change a little, live ones can change a lot. So it wouldn't surprise me if Honorblades could change somewhat as well. In that case I think it's likely that it was Jezarin's honorblade. It's seems a little poetic that a herald killed by their own honorblade would do something else then just kill them and send them to braize. Maybe this was a counter to the oathpact so they could just die if they wanted to. But then again he sounds surprised when he dies like he didn't know about it. It also opens up the question, why would they leave their honor blades behind if they were the only way to truly kill them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 13, 2018 Report Share Posted March 13, 2018 (edited) Mmmm no, because they give Moash/Vyre Jezrien's Honorblade right after that. And I don't think they can change shape THAT much. From a silvery sword to a small gold dagger is a significant change. Edited March 13, 2018 by RShara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 We don't actually know that the Honorblades can change. Navani and Dalinar see Jezrien's in the vision of Aharietiam and recognize it immediately as the same Blade they're familiar with in the present day, and unlike living Shardblades there's no known mechanism by which the Honorblades could change form. I think the idea that they could stemmed from Kalak's thoughts about the Honorblades being 'inscribed with glyphs and patterns' not matching Jezrien's Blade, but at the point that he made that observation he was specifically looking at the seven Honorblades belonging to the other surviving Heralds so Jezrien's wasn't included in that assessment. With the vision confirming that the Blade looks the same now as it did back then, it seems the assumption they could change shape was simply in error. Given the unusual coloring of the dagger and how it matches Odium's apparent fondness for gold, it's far more likely that the dagger is made of his godmetal (Raysium? Rayseium? Odium(ium)? ) than that an Honorblade somehow lost most of its size and mass, changed colors and changed its properties; compare how the knife kills with how an Honorblade or Shardblade does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 58 minutes ago, Weltall said: We don't actually know that the Honorblades can change. Navani and Dalinar see Jezrien's in the vision of Aharietiam and recognize it immediately as the same Blade they're familiar with in the present day, and unlike living Shardblades there's no known mechanism by which the Honorblades could change form. I think the idea that they could stemmed from Kalak's thoughts about the Honorblades being 'inscribed with glyphs and patterns' not matching Jezrien's Blade, but at the point that he made that observation he was specifically looking at the seven Honorblades belonging to the other surviving Heralds so Jezrien's wasn't included in that assessment. With the vision confirming that the Blade looks the same now as it did back then, it seems the assumption they could change shape was simply in error. Given the unusual coloring of the dagger and how it matches Odium's apparent fondness for gold, it's far more likely that the dagger is made of his godmetal (Raysium? Rayseium? Odium(ium)? ) than that an Honorblade somehow lost most of its size and mass, changed colors and changed its properties; compare how the knife kills with how an Honorblade or Shardblade does. Yeah, we don't know for sure (which is why I led with "unknown" ) It seems likely, but we don't know. The dagger is definitely something different, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelly Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 (edited) I can't handle Odiumium since I'm saying it "Odi-yummy-yum." I always assumed the Honorblades were more....concrete, actual swords. They're not dismiss-able like shardblades (dead ideas?) and Radiant swords (living ideas?). I think the "black smoke" bit is much more interesting, as it sounds so much like Nightblood. But agree that there's probably one for each Herald, adorned with their personalized gemstone. Why though, mmm..... Edit: It doesn't strike me as hemalurgic though. I mean, just because you're being stabbed by something doesn't make it a spike. Edited March 14, 2018 by Zellyia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 19 minutes ago, Zellyia said: I can't handle Odiumium since I'm saying it "Odi-yummy-yum." I always assumed the Honorblades were more....concrete, actual swords. They're not dismiss-able like shardblades (dead ideas?) and Radiant swords (living ideas?). I think the "black smoke" bit is much more interesting, as it sounds so much like Nightblood. But agree that there's probably one for each Herald, adorned with their personalized gemstone. Why though, mmm..... Edit: It doesn't strike me as hemalurgic though. I mean, just because you're being stabbed by something doesn't make it a spike. Honorblades are dismissable. Szeth does it multiple times. What black smoke? Brandon's confirmed it's something like hemalurgy. Quote Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased) The knife used by Moash is "something similar to hemalurgy." I7Ax [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased) Is it a Dawnshard? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased) Good question but no. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelly Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 (edited) I'd forgotten about Szeth using it like that. But why then do the Heralds stuff em in the ground for the Shin to pick up instead of just dismissing them for all time? Jez says in the beginning of Way of Kings "Our blades must be left." 4 minutes ago, RShara said: What black smoke? On 1/9/2018 at 10:10 AM, kaladar said: When Moash pulled the yellow-white knife free, it trailed dark smoke and left a blackened wound. Edited March 14, 2018 by Zellyia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 Oh right. Yeah there's def something weird with that dagger. Because dismissing them, they're still hanging around the Herald, able to be summoned. Leaving them means they're gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 I think the Heralds left their swords in an attempt to separate themselves from the Oathpact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelly Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 If the dagger is a "cognitive shadow killer", then it would explain why the Fused did not want to wield it and kept their distance while Moash did the deed (are the fused cognitive shadows?) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weltall Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 @Zellyia Yes they are. It can be deduced from everything we know about them but Brandon has also said so directly. Quote MadhavDeval [PENDING REVIEW] What about the Fused? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] The Fused-- I mean, it's the same kind of thing, they're a Cognitive Shadow. Eh? Eh. I'm gonna give you an "Eh." on that one... I don't know how you write that on the forums. source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersmith Posted March 14, 2018 Report Share Posted March 14, 2018 4 hours ago, RShara said: Mmmm no, because they give Moash/Vyre Jezrien's Honorblade right after that. And I don't think they can change shape THAT much. From a silvery sword to a small gold dagger is a significant change. Oh yea I forgot. Well that shoots down my theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishar Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) On 1/9/2018 at 10:51 AM, Weltall said: Yeah, it's been discussed and my own take (and I've seen others thinking the same) is that the dagger probably ripped out from Jezrien's spiritweb whatever it is that bound him to the Oathpact and trapped it in the gemstone. Possibly it actually took his entire soul but that's not necessary, so long as it got the right bit, Jezrien could be permanently killed by taking away whatever it is that allowed him to become a constantly reincarnating Cognitive Shadow. Thus, his death weakens the Oathpact because he doesn't go back to Braize when killed and is permanently removed from the equation, and the other Heralds feel it because they're bound together by the Oathpact so whatever was ripped out of Jezrien would have been felt by all of them. If the dagger just took that part of Jezrien's soul that directly relates to the Oathpact, I'm not sure what would happen if you were to break the gemstone. If it took his entire soul, he might still be 'alive' and breaking the stone would send his Cognitive Shadow to Braize which would perpetuate the Oathpact. You mentioned the dagger taking whatever bond him to the Oathpact and trapped it in the gemstone. Personally I think this is more likely then it taking his entire soul, and Odium most likely plans to use this. I would guess that Odium is capable of transferring that piece of the Oathpact to a different person, probably Moash. This would have many benefits for Odium, the most obvious of which being that Moash would then be immortal and able to return to life like the Heralds. A slightly less obvious, but considerably more vital part is that now the Oathpact can no longer hold the voidbringers back because Moash could simply break it every time and unleash them again. Edited March 27, 2018 by Ishar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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